Abortion and Voting

[truthseeker888]

PJM,

You are not going by scripture. All murder is wrong. Jesus tells christians to not judge each other. capital punishment and murder are both in the scriptures and tells us not to do them.

You seem to be interpreting your own beliefs, and not what scripture says.

Scripture makes it very clear that life, the spirit, are in the breath.

Man in all cultures begin to count their days on earth by the date of their first breath and they count death to be when the last breath is taken.

Please refer to scripture and not portray your own beliefs to be that of scripture.

 

[jp2weloveu]

In scripture, God tells our first parents (and through them us today) to be fruitful and multiply. He does not say fornicate and abort your offspring.

Why would God, who wills each person to be born and knows us before conception, possibly wan’t us to be killed prior to our birth? Isn’t it obvious that the murder of the innocent unborn is in direct opposition to God’s will?

Abortion is just a modern day sacrifice to Baal. Only pro-abortionists modern day idols are convenience, money, concupisence, etc…

 

[LeroyCRHP]

Question was asked again, but voting for candidate with pro-abortion platfrom mortal sin?

if it meets these three conditions, yes:

“Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

There is no dispute that abortion is a grave matter. I guess there could be a situation where a person was so ignorant of Catholic teaching that they did not realize that voting for pro-abortion candidate was a grievous sin. But anyone who took the time to research the issue, which all Catholics should do, should know this.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Truthseeker:

The Church had this to say in the 1st Century AD:

Early Christian Writings – The Didache, The Lord’s Teaching through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations
**
Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden.*** And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor, you shall not swear, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life.

Chapter 5. The Way of Death.* And the way of death is this: First of all it is evil and accursed: murders, adultery, lust, fornication, thefts, idolatries, magic arts, witchcrafts, rape, false witness, hypocrisy, double-heartedness, deceit, haughtiness, depravity, self-will, greediness, filthy talking, jealousy, over-confidence, loftiness, boastfulness; persecutors of the good, hating truth, loving a lie, not knowing a reward for righteousness, not cleaving to good nor to righteous judgment, watching not for that which is good, but for that which is evil; from whom meekness and endurance are far, loving vanities, pursuing revenge, not pitying a poor man, not laboring for the afflicted, not knowing Him Who made them, murderers of children (A term for Abortionists), destroyers of the handiwork of God, turning away from him who is in want, afflicting him who is distressed, advocates of the rich, lawless judges of the poor, utter sinners. Be delivered, children, from all these.

earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

The Catholic Church has always believed that the Lord empowered her through the Holy Spirit to proclaim God’s Truth to a broken world. That is what we call the Magisterium of the Church, and the accumulated teachings are known as Holy Tradition. This Magisterium is how the Church gathered and discerned the Scriptures you’ve quoted, and it is this Magisterium that’s allowed the Church to infallibly interpret even the verses you’ve quoted…

And, The Catholic Church has always interpreted them as the Pro-Lifers are interpreting them - Same holds for the Eastern Orthodox since well before the split.

In this case, I fear your argument as Gamaliel said is not with “the Anti-Abortionists”, but it’s with God, who is the Creator of all.

You may want to read:

2270-2275 (Abortion) from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (including the Footnotes and x-Ref’s) -​

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

Luke 26-56 - The Annunciation & Visitation

Please note how John the Baptist, “Leaps in Elizabeth’s womb for joy,” at the sound of the Blessed Virgin Mary’s voice.

Matthew 2:1-18 - The Epiphany of our Lord

Please note how the Astrologers “Alert” on the Star which rises when Mary CONCEIVES and how Harold bases his calculations of Jesus’ age on when those Astrologers begin their preparations to depart “from the East”.

Evangelium Vitae
Humanae Vitae Priests - Click on the Prophecy for our Time & Clerical Contraception Links

Please use the links above - The first one is to an Encyclical - Although I’m sure you’ll disagree with their conclusions, you’ll have a hard time finding anything illogical or untrue in them. Please use this occasion to question yourself and your conclusions and to “seek Truth” as your moniker suggests.

Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[elts1956]

Abortion is grave matter, but voting is not. From the CCC
In the scenario posed the Object is voting, not abortion.

This requires that the intention and/or the circumstances be evaulated to determine a particular votes morality.
To me this means that any declaration that voting for a pro-abortion candidate is a grave matter presumes to judge the intention and circumstance without sufficient data to do so.

Note: In there is any doubt, I vote pro-life.

Moral Theology can be very sticky and is best interpreted by a trained Catholic theologian, which I am not. BUT given that the act of “formal” abortion is a grave sin worthy of excommunication, wouldn’t it logically follow that anyone supporting, by voting, for a politician who advocates abortion during his run for Presidency, is guilty of sin, the seriousness of which, we as onlookers cannot know. BUT, wouldn’t you agree that given the fact that abortion itself is never, never good, a person, no matter their attitude, or reason, who votes for such a pro-abortion candidate, is either directly, or indirectly voting for abortion? Don’t you think this would be a matter of some cupability?

I would suggest your read Evangelium Vitae, if you haven’t already,or go to the following website.

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
DOCTRINAL NOTE
on some questions regarding
The Participation of Catholics in Political Life

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Abortion is just a modern day sacrifice to Baal. Only pro-abortionists modern day idols are convenience, money, concupisence, etc…

jp2weloveu:

And two other false gods - MOLECH and MAMMON (Profit) Here’s how I’ve Put it in two different communications to Priests for Life:

1st Comment:
*Dear Fr. Pavone: *

• One of the members of my congregation brought up an interesting point I had neither thought of nor heard of, that the engine fueling the evil of Abortion is PROFIT, not the profit made from the Abortions themselves, but the PROFIT made from various kinds of research on the “Products of Abortion” and from products made from the “Products of Abortion”. While the Abortion-Industrial complex charges $325 for a simple Abortion, the Abortion-Industrial complex makes as much as $25,000 on each of the babies killed by Abortion. *
• The political power from the Abortion-Industrial complex doesn’t come from those who believe, “Abortion should be safe, legal and rare” or who even do the Abortions for $325 each. The political power and the DONATIONS come from those in the Abortion-Industrial complex who had a gross income of $40 BILLION Last year alone, and that stands to double in the first full year after the FOCA and Federal Funding for **Embryonic Stem-Cell Research ** are passed. Fr. Pavone, not only are our children being sacrificed to Molech - They’re being sacrificed to Molech for MONEY! *
• If that weren’t depressing enough, we’re among the least Abortive countries in the world. Not only are WE under judgment - Our world is, too. The only good news in all of this is that my friend may have just pointed us to the heart of our Hydra. the people inside the Abortion-Industrial complex who are profiting from the slaughter of the innocent and who are using those profits to oppose pro-life politicians and promote pro-death politicians. *
• Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michae**l*
  A few days later, I received an answer from someone on their staff saying the LIFE DYNAMICS had researched the issue and a hearing (which had been so mismanaged by the Members of Congress they were a farce) had been held which had gone nowhere:

My reply
Dear John:

• I don’t know if you got exactly what I was saying… My friend was not only talking about the “sale of body parts”, but the money being made in “research” and “Pharmaceuticals” and in the production of cosmetics…*
• The researchers at Life Dynamics only saw the top of the iceberg! and, The money and power putting Abortion Mills in the inner cities in our country comes from the bottom part of this iceberg…*
• I know the regular media and Congress are not only of no help, but are usually obstructions, but the people we need to energize are getting their information ON THE WEB… The problem is putting the information in a form they’ll look at and that will inform and energize them.*
• Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael*
  The resistance LIFE DYNAMICS faced from the Pro-Death people in Congress tells me they, and my friend, were on the right track. There’s a saying about FLAK protecting vital targets…

Anyone who was wondering why the “fat-cats” on “Wall Street” gave $3 to Obama to every $1 they gave McCain, you just might have your answer.

My next post gives some scriptures which I believe explain God’s Feelings on Abortion.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

jp2weloveu:

Continued from Previous Post…

Here are some scriptures which might explain God’s “feelings” about what we’ve been doing for the past 30 years:

From the Prophet Jeremiah
Hear the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem. "Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon this place that the ears of every one who hears of it will tingle. Because the people have forsaken me, and have profaned this place by burning incense in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents, and have built the high places of Ba’al to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Ba’al, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind; therefore, behold, days are coming, says the LORD, when this place shall no more be called Topheth, or the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the ‘Valley of Slaughter’.

• "And in this place I will make void the plans of Judah and Jerusalem, and will cause their people to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hand of those who seek their life. I will give their dead bodies for food to the birds of the air and to the beasts of the earth. *
• “And I will make this city a horror, a thing to be hissed at; every one who passes by it will be horrified and will hiss because of all its disasters. And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and every one shall eat the flesh of his neighbor in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them.”*

Jeremiah 19:3-9 RSV
Again from the Prophet Jeremiah:
“They built the high places of Ba’al in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. ‘Now therefore thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning this city of which you say, “It is given into the hand of the king of Babylon by sword, by famine, and by pestilence”.’”

Jeremiah 32:35-36 RSV
From the Prophet Ezekiel
*And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your harlotries so small a matter that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them? *

• …*

*Thus says the Lord GOD, Because your shame was laid bare and your nakedness uncovered in your harlotries with your lovers, and because of all your idols, and because of the blood of your children that you gave to them, therefore, behold, I will gather all your lovers, with whom you took pleasure, all those you loved and all those you loathed; I will gather them against you from every side, and will uncover your nakedness to them, that they may see all your nakedness. *

*And I will judge you as women who break wedlock and shed blood are judged, and bring upon you the blood of wrath and jealousy. And I will give you into the hand of your lovers, and they shall throw down your vaulted chamber and break down your lofty places; they shall strip you of your clothes and take your fair jewels, and leave you naked and bare. *

*They shall bring up a host against you, and they shall stone you and cut you to pieces with their swords. And they shall burn your houses and execute judgments upon you in the sight of many women; I will make you stop playing the harlot, and you shall also give hire no more. *

Ezekiel 16:20-21, 36-41 RSV
1 More Scripture from the Prophet Ezekiel to go.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

jp2weloveu:

Continued from the Previous Post…

Final Scripture - from the Prophet Ezekiel:*The LORD said to me: "Son of man, will you judge Oho’lah and Ohol’ibah? Then declare to them their abominable deeds. For they have committed adultery, and blood is upon their hands; with their idols they have committed adultery; and they have even offered up to them for food the sons whom they had borne to me. Moreover this they have done to me: they have defiled my sanctuary on the same day and profaned my sabbaths. For when they had slaughtered their children in sacrifice to their idols, on the same day they came into my sanctuary to profane it. And lo, this is what they did in my house. They even sent for men to come from far, to whom a messenger was sent, and lo, they came. For them you bathed yourself, painted your eyes, and decked yourself with ornaments; you sat upon a stately couch, with a table spread before it on which you had placed my incense and my oil. The sound of a carefree multitude was with her; and with men of the common sort drunkards were brought from the wilderness; and they put bracelets upon the hands of the women, and beautiful crowns upon their heads. *

*“Then I said, Do not men now commit adultery when they practice harlotry with her? For they have gone in to her, as men go in to a harlot. Thus they went in to Oho’lah and to Ohol’ibah to commit lewdness. But righteous men shall pass judgment on them with the sentence of adulteresses, and with the sentence of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is upon their hands.” *

For thus says the Lord GOD: “Bring up a host against them, and make them an object of terror and a spoil. And the host shall stone them and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses. Thus will I put an end to lewdness in the land, that all women may take warning and not commit lewdness as you have done. And your lewdness shall be requited upon you, and you shall bear the penalty for your sinful idolatry; and you shall know that I am the Lord GOD.”

Ezekiel 23:36-49 RSV
This should be sufficient, and it should also serve as a warning - esp. when one considers the fact that NO fewer than 31 Al Queda terrorist plots have been foiled in the USA since 2001…

Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Mike_Dye]

Is it a mortal sin to vote for anyone, regardless of the political party, who is in favor of abortion? I have researched and cannot get a definate answer. Everyone seems to be dancing around that question.

I myself would never vote for anyone who is pro-abortion no matter what party, however, I have a few catholic friends that I am concerned about who are staunch one political party. I thought if I could get a definate answer from you that might help.

Thank you,
JJ:slapfight:

To me it is a mortal sin, if you know that the candidate is pro-death and vote for them regardless. In my opinion you would have a share in each abortion that was enabled by your elected candidates support of this evil. I am trying to not dance around any issue:thumbsup:

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Question was asked again, but voting for candidate with pro-abortion platfrom mortal sin?

Leroy:

How about this approach - Why risk it unless you have NO other choice (i.e. NO even remotely viable Pro-Life Candidate is available) on the ballot? That wasn’t the case in this last election - John McCain and Sarah Palin were clearly Pro-Life, esp. Sarah Palin. Barack Obama not only had stated that he was “Pro-Choice” but he had a Pro-Abortion voting record both as a member of the Ill. State Leg. and as a US Senator. This was NOT a case of someone who’s party had a “Pro-Abortion Platform” - He was personally Pro-Abortion.

Only God can judge someone’s motives in that circumstance, but according to the clear teaching of the Church, those Catholics who voted for Obama would seem to be guilty of a Grave sin. Bush Hatred, dislike of Republicans, opposition to the Iraq War or even opposition to the Death Penalty doesn’t excuse the vote against the innocent unborn, because, while those matters are all issues of prudential judgment, Abortion is wrong in and of itself.

I’m not going to speak about those Democrats who believe they can change their party’s position on Abortion by staying within the party and “fighting the good fight”, except to say 2 things: I finally gave that up when I saw that we were giving up far more ground than we were gaining, and that far more of our hearts were being changed than we were changing (I not only became Pro-Abortion for 15 years but spent 20+ years away from the Church and our Lord because of the effects of “being in the enemies camp”); and, the fact these people still think they can reform the DNC doesn’t absolve them from the obligation to vote Pro-Life even if the only viable Pro-Life Candidate in the General Election is Republican.

This may not be the blanket answer you were hoping for, but it’s what we have to live with. The object isn’t just to avoid Mortal Sin - The object is to Defend Human Life from Conception to Natural Death. You have to ask which candidate is going to do that, and to understand that a candidate who is going to allow the slaughter of the innocent unborn is probably also going to favorably consider allow the killing of the elderly and the handicapped who’ve become burdensome to the rest of society. That’s the natural progression of things - If you don’t believe me, look up the Groningen University Hospital Protocols - Use the following links to start:

powerpundit.com/archive/the_groningen_protocol.php
powerpundit.com/archive/more_groningen_protocol.php
umcg.nl/azg/nl/english/nieuws/45613
euthanasia.procon.org/viewanswers.asp?questionID=214
qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=532

There used to be an old term “Slippery Slope”. One of the things Dr. Verhagen described was a child with Spinal Bifida:

"Another example may be a child with spinal bifida with a sack of brain fluid attached where all the nerves are floating around. This child is barely able to breathe, and would have to undergo at least sixty operations in the course of a year to temporarily alleviate its problems. These operations would not ease the pain. Moreover, the child would suffer such unbearable pain that it has to be constantly anaesthetised. The parents watch this in tears and beg the doctor to bring an end to such suffering.”

umcg.nl/azg/nl/english/nieuws/45613

I know this child is suffering - Part of what she’s having are known as Spinal Headaches, and I know from personal experience how absolutely agonizing they are. There are people who have heard me screaming while I was in coma because I had broken my Morphine Pump from being in so much pain - I understand I was screaming so loudly I woke up the entire floor (including the nurses who then begged the HMO to “take him away!”).

This child is a challenge to us, because we do need to find a way to alleviate at least some of her pain, and some of the suffering of her parents, but the answer is NEVER to put the child to death. I know, because if someone had put me to death, I would never have encountered God’s Saving Grace and been brought back.

In a situation such as this, I would like to know that we are doing our job and offering the parents the Good News of the Gospel, the Gospel of the Lord who can heal and repair their brokenness and possibly that of their daughter as well.

I know we’ll never have that if their daughter is killed, and I know that with more Abortions we’ll have an even more broken world.

Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Nino]

Well,lets see,make believe you were living back in 1860…and an issue was raging thru out the nation…slavery it was called…it seems the plantation owners down south believed that one human being can own another human being and do with that human being what it wants to! A fella by the name of Lincoln said otherwise…that the reason we fought a revolution was that ‘all men are created equal’…and so that war was fought! When the temporary host is impegnated a chemical reaction takes place inside of her…she was not born with this new life…she becomes the temporary host for it…all it needs is time…its either male or female,slowly developing eyes,feet,senstive nerves etc…in about 9 months this new human being is ready to leave the oven so to speak and enter fullblast into our world…to stop this process is murder!!! The killing of an innocent human being is always murder…so pro-abortion polls are the same as pro-slavery polls back in 1860…they believe that one human can own another and that is slavery…over 50 million murdered developing babies and counting…what a travesty America is…a pagan nation electing pagans to office. have a nice valentines day!..NIno

 

[Eggnotz]

They say that the difference between a developer and an environmentalist is that the developer wants a house in the woods and an environmentalist already has a house in the woods.

I would ask any pro-choice person, or anyone who voted for a pro-choice person, how they would like to have their arms ripped off and then be sucked into a bottle. Just because they survived the womb now the rules change for everyone else who happens to be living there for a time?

Pulling the lever to elect a person who states up front that they will do all they can to facilitate abortions is, in and of itself, an evil act. Anyone who can compartmentalize enough to convince themselves that it’s OK to vote that way doesn’t understand Christianity or is simple delusional.

 

[PJM]

PJM,

You are not going by scripture. All murder is wrong. Jesus tells christians to not judge each other. capital punishment and murder are both in the scriptures and tells us not to do them.

You seem to be interpreting your own beliefs, and not what scripture says.

Scripture makes it very clear that life, the spirit, are in the breath.

Man in all cultures begin to count their days on earth by the date of their first breath and they count death to be when the last breath is taken.

Please refer to scripture and not portray your own beliefs to be that of scripture.

Dear friend in Christ,

Actually I do understand scripture. Not all murder is wrong.
Self defence comes to mind, as does a “just war,”.

What your missing is the Commandemnts, are only “catagory headings.” They mean and bind to a far larger extent, than their TITLES.

And who has not only the right, but the MANDATE fro Jesus Himself to interpet the bible? Why the RCC of course.

The only church founded by Jesus. And the New Testament was
written by Catholics for Catholics. There were NO “Christians” in the way we understand the term today, until the late 1500’s.

So friend, while I take no joy in pointing this out, you have an incorrect and an incomplete understanding of Sacred Scripture.

Mt Chapter 16: "17* And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18* And I tell you, you are Peter, * and on this rock * I will build my church, and the powers of death * shall not prevail against it. 19* ** I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” **

Friend, this is very clear and the words of Jesus Himself

The terms “binding and loosing” (Jesus was Speaking to Jews remember) were legal and binding Rabbitical Terms, quite common in that day, time and place. Jesus knew exactly what power He Jesus was giving to St. Peter to completely govern our Blessed Lords new (and single) church.

What I shared is Scriptural, is the truth, and even quite logical.

All killing is Bad, but sometimes necessary. have you ever read the Old Testament? Lots of evidence is in the bible to support the position that I shared with you.

May God grant you love and understanding,

 

[Ender]

What if there are two candidates with one who will allow abortion and the other candidate in favor of capital punishment. Is one better than the other? If both in the end murder a human being, does one take precedent over the other? This is actually a possibility where I live.

I think this demonstrates the damage done by the “Seamless Garment” argument that tied abortion and capital punishment together. These two actions are in no way comparable and should not be discussed as if they were.

First, capital punishment is not murder as defined by the law, the Church, or the dictionary. Murder is the willful killing of the innocent and while criminals are willfully executed they are surely not innocent.

Second, the Church has always allowed capital punishment (even today, at least in theory) while she has always condemned abortion. How can one reasonably equate something the Church allows with something she not only deplores but which brings with it the penalty of excommunication for those who engage in it?

The seamless garment is a political tool, not a theological or moral argument. It was designed specifically to offset the political damage done to those who support abortion by offering a fig leaf of respectability if they simultaneously opposed capital punishment. Clearly, it’s working.

Ender

 

[elts1956]

Question was asked again, but voting for candidate with pro-abortion platfrom mortal sin?

Hello, I don’t know if your question was answered as yet, but you could try this site:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
DOCTRINAL NOTE
on some questions regarding
The Participation of Catholics in Political Life

or perhaps these paragraphs will help clear up the fogginess.

priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm

Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion
General Principles
2. The Church teaches that abortion or euthanasia is a grave sin. The Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae, with reference to judicial decisions or civil laws that authorize or promote abortion or euthanasia, states that there is a “grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to 'take part in a propaganda campaign in favour of such a law or vote for it’”/ (no. 73). Christians have a “grave obligation of conscience not to cooperate formally in practices which, even if permitted by civil legislation, are contrary to God’s law. Indeed, from the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. …] This cooperation can never be justified either by invoking respect for the freedom of others or by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it” (no. 74).

by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

N.B. A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons

However, in the light of the above underlined and the words in green, I would say it is at least remote material cooperation to fool oneself into the belief it is okay to vote for a pro-abort pol. if one does not vote FOR the issue of abortion. But remember, Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI attributed more intellect to the average person than s/he has when he added there must be proportionate reason to do so.

So was there proportionate reason to ignore the issues of abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research, cloning and homosexual marriage which have been deemed grave wrongs, in order to see if bo will buck up the economy, or stop the war etc.etc.? I think not. Was it a mortal sin to do so? That is between the voter and s/his confessor.

Perhaps you should better ask who would Pope John Paul II, or Pope Benedict XVI have voted for if either were in your shoes.

 

[joe_clark]

I think this demonstrates the damage done by the “Seamless Garment” argument that tied abortion and capital punishment together. These two actions are in no way comparable and should not be discussed as if they were.

First, capital punishment is not murder as defined by the law, the Church, or the dictionary. Murder is the willful killing of the innocent and while criminals are willfully executed they are surely not innocent.

Second, the Church has always allowed capital punishment (even today, at least in theory) while she has always condemned abortion. How can one reasonably equate something the Church allows with something she not only deplores but which brings with it the penalty of excommunication for those who engage in it?

The seamless garment is a political tool, not a theological or moral argument. It was designed specifically to offset the political damage done to those who support abortion by offering a fig leaf of respectability if they simultaneously opposed capital punishment. Clearly, it’s working.

Ender

My point in an earlier post indicated that, approximately 15 condemed men accused of, tried and convicted by a jury and sentenced to death, were innocent and freed by DNA evidence, before the death penalty was carried out. In this case it will be called murder of an inncent.

My skin crawls when one is to wonder, in the past, how many innocent condemed men were murdered and how many guilty men went with them.

Is it OK that the jury didn’t know they were really innocent. Does a jury have blood on their hands if they truly didn’t know. Death is permanent and final. Celebrate life while you can…

 

[Nordar]

My point in an earlier post indicated that, approximately 15 condemed men accused of, tried and convicted by a jury and sentenced to death, were innocent and freed by DNA evidence, before the death penalty was carried out. In this case it will be called murder of an inncent.

My skin crawls when one is to wonder, in the past, how many innocent condemed men were murdered and how many guilty men went with them.

Is it OK that the jury didn’t know they were really innocent. Does a jury have blood on their hands if they truly didn’t know. Death is permanent and final. Celebrate life while you can…

None of this has anything to do with Abortion! They are two seperate issues and the fact that you seem to think they are equal is very sad!

 

[joe_clark]

None of this has anything to do with Abortion! They are two seperate issues and the fact that you seem to think they are equal is very sad!

It has nothing and everything to do with murder and death.

Door # 1
person aborting fetus = murder +death
person on death row (may or may not be guilty?) + lethal injection, execution, firing squad (involves another human being killing another not in defense of ones self or another= murder.

 

[Nordar]

It has nothing and everything to do with murder and death.

Door # 1
person aborting fetus = murder +death
person on death row (may or may not be guilty?) + lethal injection, execution, firing squad (involves another human being killing another not in defense of ones self or another= murder.

They are not the same thing!
I am not even understanding why you find the need to equate The Death Penalty with abortion!

You were told in another thread. Abortion is an intrinsic evil according to The Church!
The Death Penalty is not an intrinsic evil! according to the Church.

So I do not understand why you are posting all this stuff about The Death Penalty, when the thread is Abortion and voting! not the Death Penalty!

 

[estesbob]

It has nothing and everything to do with murder and death.

Door # 1
person aborting fetus = murder +death
person on death row (may or may not be guilty?) + lethal injection, execution, firing squad (involves another human being killing another not in defense of ones self or another= murder.

So are you contending that if we are faced with two candidates, one who supports the death penalty but opposes abortion and the other who supports abortion but opposes the death penalty we cannot vote for either? Or are you claiming we can vote for the pro-abortion candidate because the two candidates are morally equivalent?