Abortion and Voting

[Ender]

My point in an earlier post indicated that, approximately 15 condemed men accused of, tried and convicted by a jury and sentenced to death, were innocent and freed by DNA evidence, before the death penalty was carried out. In this case it will be called murder of an inncent.

Actually, assuming those men were in fact innocent, these would be cases of justice - given that they were all released.

My skin crawls when one is to wonder, in the past, how many innocent condemed men were murdered and how many guilty men went with them.

Since the US reinstated the death penalty in 1976 there have been 1,136 people executed through the end of 2008. Of that number perhaps 4-8 can reasonably be considered questionable, although none has been shown to have been innocent. That is, in 32 years of executions, the total number killed is about one-quarter of the number of abortions done in a single day, and there is no doubt about the innocence of those victims. That’s the statistic that should make your skin crawl.

Is it OK that the jury didn’t know they were really innocent. Does a jury have blood on their hands if they truly didn’t know.

Such a jury would be guiltless provided they acted in good faith.

(Aquinas ST II/II 64,8) Augustine says to Publicola (Ep. xlvii): “When we do a thing for a good and lawful purpose, if thereby we unintentionally cause harm to anyone, it should by no means be imputed to us.” Now it sometimes happens by chance that a person is killed as a result of something done for a good purpose. Therefore the person who did it is not accounted guilty.

Ender

 

[joe_clark]

So are you contending that if we are faced with two candidates, one who supports the death penalty but opposes abortion and the other who supports abortion but opposes the death penalty we cannot vote for either? Or are you claiming we can vote for the pro-abortion candidate because the two candidates are morally equivalent?

This is where you place yourself when you mix politics and religion, yes.

 

[estesbob]

This is where you place yourself when you mix politics and religion, yes.

Are you saying our faith should not affect our politics at all? Are you going to answer the question? Why do get the feeling you voted for Obama?

 

[joe_clark]

Actually, assuming those men were in fact innocent, these would be cases of justice - given that they were all released.

Since the US reinstated the death penalty in 1976 there have been 1,136 people executed through the end of 2008. Of that number perhaps 4-8 can reasonably be considered questionable, although none has been shown to have been innocent. That is, in 32 years of executions, the total number killed is about one-quarter of the number of abortions done in a single day, and there is no doubt about the innocence of those victims. That’s the statistic that should make your skin crawl.

Such a jury would be guiltless provided they acted in good faith.

(Aquinas ST II/II 64,8) Augustine says to Publicola (Ep. xlvii): “When we do a thing for a good and lawful purpose, if thereby we unintentionally cause harm to anyone, it should by no means be imputed to us.” Now it sometimes happens by chance that a person is killed as a result of something done for a good purpose. Therefore the person who did it is not accounted guilty.

Ender

Such a jury would be guiltless provided they acted in good faith

Wow. So easy to exonerate the jury even though they have the power over life and death. Sounds like bull to me. I though GOD was one that had absolute power over life and death. I believe you are burning the cigarete at both ends.

"When we do a thing for a good and lawful purpose, if thereby we unintentionally cause harm to anyone, it should by no means be imputed to us." Now it sometimes happens by chance that a person is killed as a result of something done for a good purpose. Therefore the person who did it is not accounted guilty.

Who died and made anyone here chief? Murder in the name of (___________________) *fill in blank here *

I can tell that what you have sucessfully negotiated, death to one but not another, I cannot.

This is the very slippery slope that everyone is trying to avoid.

 

[elts1956]

My point in an earlier post indicated that, approximately 15 condemed men accused of, tried and convicted by a jury and sentenced to death, were innocent and freed by DNA evidence, before the death penalty was carried out. In this case it will be called murder of an inncent.

My skin crawls when one is to wonder, in the past, how many innocent condemed men were murdered and how many guilty men went with them.

Is it OK that the jury didn’t know they were really innocent. Does a jury have blood on their hands if they truly didn’t know. Death is permanent and final. Celebrate life while you can…

Ok, imagine this. We are in a court room. One by one, for over 35 years an unborn child, torn, suctioned, ripped, poisoned, saline burns on their bodies, have been laid on individual stretchers and marched by an empty jury box. Each of the mothers and fathers of these unborn children are in the Court Room, they are the judge, the jury, those who decided if their child was to live, or die.

Each of these children was innocent of commiting any sin, any wrong doing, were only capable of giving love if they had been born. Yet, they were judged guilty of only wanting to live by the judge, the jury. They are forever lost to life as we know it. They will have no second chance as some adults will have who were wrongly sentenced to prison, or to death. For over 35 years, these little ones are paraded by the living who chose their deaths, who decided they were not WORTHY to live.

Yes, it would take 35 years for all 50,000,000 of them to be seen. Would you be willing to sit and watch?

 

[elts1956]

My point in an earlier post indicated that, approximately 15 condemed men accused of, tried and convicted by a jury and sentenced to death, were innocent and freed by DNA evidence, before the death penalty was carried out. In this case it will be called murder of an inncent.

My skin crawls when one is to wonder, in the past, how many innocent condemed men were murdered and how many guilty men went with them.

Is it OK that the jury didn’t know they were really innocent. Does a jury have blood on their hands if they truly didn’t know. Death is permanent and final. Celebrate life while you can…

This is where you place yourself when you mix politics and religion, yes.

If I have to choose between my Religion and politics, an example of a No Brainer, I would always choose my Religion.

If I didn’t, I would have to destroy all the laws of the U.S. that are based on the judeo-christian ideology. Politics should always be supported by Religion, but in this day and age that is impossible.

 

[Boxcar]

But again, that is all under the discretion and prudence of the person voting.
Not having health insurance, that could lead to death.
Not having a clean environment to live in, that could to lead to death.

Etc, etc.

Thou shalt not murder, what does clean air or health insurence have to do with that, more than half the people in the world dont have any

 

[Boxcar]

Such a jury would be guiltless provided they acted in good faith

Wow. So easy to exonerate the jury even though they have the power over life and death. Sounds like bull to me. I though GOD was one that had absolute power over life and death. I believe you are burning the cigarete at both ends.

"When we do a thing for a good and lawful purpose, if thereby we unintentionally cause harm to anyone, it should by no means be imputed to us." Now it sometimes happens by chance that a person is killed as a result of something done for a good purpose. Therefore the person who did it is not accounted guilty.

Who died and made anyone here chief? Murder in the name of (___________________) *fill in blank here *

I can tell that what you have sucessfully negotiated, death to one but not another, I cannot.

This is the very slippery slope that everyone is trying to avoid.

get a grip, read The Shack maybe God is as merciful as he says he is.after all it was the righteous Pharesse that eveyone looked up to, they were the pious ones who crucified the Lord,how is it that verry good people do the most heinous crimes?

 

[Ender]

Sounds like bull to me.

I have to say, I don’t think I’ve ever seen the thoughts of Augustine and Aquinas so thoroughly dismissed.

Who died and made anyone here chief?

You’re probably right. I naively accepted that two of the greatest theologians in the history of the Church would actually understand her teaching. What was I thinking?

This is the very slippery slope that everyone is trying to avoid.

It is what the Church teaches. If you have reference to Church documents that show otherwise I’d be happy to look at them. If all you have is your personal opinion, however, then you offer me no reason to suspect that what I believe is wrong.

Ender

 

[dianebotello]

My brother and his wife, both catholic, vote for a party that has an openly pro-abortion stance - all other parties in my country have abortion as a conscience issue - they don’t force people to vote for pro-abortion policies.

The way I look at it, whoever you vote for, whatever they do, you are responsible for. If Obama legalises infanticide and publically supports it, then all who voted for Obama are responsible for the blood of infants.

You are correct, because by voting for a pro-abortion candidate, you are saying it is ok with you to use your tax dollars to murder the innocent! Therefore saying you do not support his platform on abortion is invalid!

 

[Nordar]

You are correct, because by voting for a pro-abortion candidate, you are saying it is ok with you to use your tax dollars to murder the innocent! Therefore saying you do not support his platform on abortion is invalid!

Especially when he was so vocal about his stance on Abortion, it was very clear and how anyone could say they did not know is BS!

 

[Boxcar]

Demonstrably false-the usual rationalization for those who claim to be pro-life but support pro-abortion canidates.

Can you name one member of the Magestrium that said there were proportionate reasons to vote for Obama? i can give you quotes from over 100 bishops (and the Pope) saying there were not.

McCaim proimised to keep the Mexico City policy in effect-Obama overturned it on his third day in office,… this will account for the deaths of 10s of thousands of children overseas. The last time these funds were available(under Clinton) they were used, in addition to pay to ill children, to forcibly sterilize 90,000 women in Peru.

You have helped empower the most pro-abortion extrmist to ever become President of the United States. Children overseas are already dying because of your vote.

Stop complaining and pray the chaplet of devine Mercy, 150,000 die everyday who cares about politics?

 

[estesbob]

Stop complaining and pray the chaplet of devine Mercy, 150,000 die everyday who cares about politics?

150,000 a day die from what? Are they being deliberately put to death because of government policies that not only encourage their slaughter but often pays for it?

I’m not going to quit complaining until abortion is illegal. I’m not going to ever vote for a candidate who supports abortion. How about you?

 

[RosaryFan]

Is it a mortal sin to vote for anyone, regardless of the political party, who is in favor of abortion? I have researched and cannot get a definate answer. Everyone seems to be dancing around that question.

I myself would never vote for anyone who is pro-abortion no matter what party, however, I have a few catholic friends that I am concerned about who are staunch one political party. I thought if I could get a definate answer from you that might help.

Thank you,
JJ:slapfight:

Yes, that’s the whole problem - Everyone seems to be dancing around that question.

The Bishops’ letter was ambiguous on the subject, to say the VERY least.

This is what I think (but I’m no authority, of course): If you knowingly vote for a pro-abortion candidate (even if you’re voting on “other” issues - whatever they may be), you’ve cooperated in the evil of killing innocent human life and have, therefore, committed a mortal sin.

The priest in our parish was not afraid to say this to us. He received some flack for it, but he certainly did his job and most of us are proud of him. The Bishops, however, issued that ambiguous letter which seemed to give the green light to those Catholics who wanted to conveniently ignore the screams of the unborn babies, and they really dropped the ball on this election.

 

[estesbob]

Yes, that’s the whole problem - Everyone seems to be dancing around that question.

The Bishops’ letter was ambiguous on the subject, to say the VERY least.

This is what I think (but I’m no authority, of course): If you knowingly vote for a pro-abortion candidate (even if you’re voting on “other” issues - whatever they may be), you’ve cooperated in the evil of killing innocent human life and have, therefore, committed a mortal sin.

The priest in our parish was not afraid to say this to us. He received some flack for it, but he certainly did his job and most of us are proud of him. The Bishops, however, issued that ambiguous letter which seemed to give the green light to those Catholics who wanted to conveniently ignore the screams of the unborn babies, and they really dropped the ball on this election.

Our pastor gave a sermon about it again last Sunday. Comparing the need of the lepers to go to the priests to show they were clingin to the need for pro abortion Catholic politician to reconcile with the church’s teaching on abortion. As usual the parishioners with Obama stickers on their car were squirming in their seats. And the best part is that writing the Bishop would do no good because Archbishop Chaout made it very clear, as he led a rosary on the steps of the Democrat party convention, that a Catholic Could not support a pro-abortion politician

 

[Numinous]

Our parish priest said in his homily that there were more things to consider in voting than just abortion. I said, “No there’s not!” right there in the middle of Mass, but he did not respond. I wasn’t looking for a response. I just had to make sure everyone heard the truth.

 

[robsonwin]

Is it a mortal sin to vote for anyone, regardless of the political party, who is in favor of abortion? I have researched and cannot get a definate answer. Everyone seems to be dancing around that question.

I myself would never vote for anyone who is pro-abortion no matter what party, however, I have a few catholic friends that I am concerned about who are staunch one political party. I thought if I could get a definate answer from you that might help.

Thank you,
JJ:slapfight:

Simple answer, “thou shalt not commit murder”.

 

[thereseozi]

lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/feb/09021302.html

B]On the Tragic Self-Deceit of the Human Race
Column by John Jalsevac

February 13, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A while back Cardinal Egan wrote an uncharacteristically scathing column, which is one of the best I have ever read on the abortion issue, certainly by a bishop. In it he included these few lines: “If you can convince yourself that these beings (unborn children) are something other than living and innocent human beings, something, for example, such as ‘mere clusters of tissues,’ you have a problem far more basic than merely not appreciating the wrongness of abortion. And that problem is - forgive me - self-deceit in a most extreme form.”

Human beings are extraordinarily adept at self-deceit, which is witnessed to by the fact that whole generations have periodically convinced themselves of things that are laughably (but often tragically) false, even when all the evidence points otherwise. Usually this is accomplished because the prevalent lie of the age happens to be a convenient one, and to think contrary to what is fashionable would spoil one’s groove…

The President of the United States is a married man with two children. He has also been one of the most outspoken defenders of all abortions, including partial-birth abortions. I wonder then, did he ever take the time while his wife was pregnant to notice what pregnancy was like? Surely Barack has sat on the sofa with Michelle, as I have done with my wife, and watched as his child’s fists imprinted themselves on his wife’s belly in a sudden flurry of punches. Was he not moved? Did he not, even for a moment, question himself? And somehow we have convinced ourselves that Obama is the great, indeed, the model family man.

Ay, we humans are very adept at self-deception.

 

[elts1956]

Our parish priest said in his homily that there were more things to consider in voting than just abortion. I said, “No there’s not!” right there in the middle of Mass, but he did not respond. I wasn’t looking for a response. I just had to make sure everyone heard the truth.

Of course he wouldn’t answer you. He was too busy “leading” the people. Sorry for the sarcasm. I am just beginning to run out of patience with some of the clergy and hierarchy of the Catholic Church. When I mention to individuals what is happening in the Church, they look at me as though I have really gone off the deep end.

But good for you. I wish there had been several more shouts to this priest.

 

[JKing]

Of course he wouldn’t answer you. He was too busy “leading” the people. Sorry for the sarcasm. I am just beginning to run out of patience with some of the clergy and hierarchy of the Catholic Church. When I mention to individuals what is happening in the Church, they look at me as though I have really gone off the deep end.

But good for you. I wish there had been several more shouts to this priest.

Don’t lose hope! Every year that goes by more of those great young priests are coming out of the (reformed!) seminaries. And every year that goes by more of that generation of priests that were so poorly formed in the 60’s and 70’s are retiring or (God help them) dying. Slowly, the turnover will begin to have an affect. The aging hippies will lose their grip and the Roe survivors, the JPII generation will take over and then the Church will have the impact on American society that we should have been having for the past century.

God bless.
Jeff