Abortion approved for 11 yo - Romania

[Caesar517]

Eh hem. Aborting foetuses is absolutely not allowed under any circumstance according to the Catholic Church, save for instances when double effect is at play. Maybe you would like to clarify your own theological misunderstandings before correcting mine.

I’m going to step in here and say “back at you.” The Principle of Double Effect can only be used to justiify an action when the action is not intrinsically evil. Abortion is intrinsically evil. You can’t use the Principle of Double Effect to justify murdering a baby. Here is the relevant section of the CCC.

 

[Pong]

Be glad you’re not within arms reach…

Wow. Tha really told me. If you can’t keep your emotions in check, maybe you should stay out of the grown-up discussions.

His comment upset me more than it should have.
I will say a prayer for you Pong; you need it.

Eh hem. She appreciates all the prayers she can get.

I’m going to step in here and say “back at you.” The Principle of Double Effect can only be used to justiify an action when the action is not intrinsically evil. Abortion is intrinsically evil. You can’t use the Principle of Double Effect to justify murdering a baby. Here is the relevant section of the CCC.

I never attempted to use the doctrine of double effect on this case. If you read my previous post, I was explaining the aforementioned doctrine to a previous poster. I am well aware of the circumstances in which double-effect comes into play and what the catechism has to say about it. There is a saying that you may have heard of… something about not teaching granny to suck eggs…

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

The baby is already 21 weeks old.

A 21 week old baby is completely formed, just very small. The baby is very near viability. If the little girl were to develop some serious problem where the baby would cause harm to her, she could deliver prematurely.

To go ahead and murder this baby is wrong. Any type of abortion procedure on a 21 week baby is dangerous and unsafe.

For those of you who think women don’t suffer emotionally after having abortions, go to the Priests for Life website. There is a link to Silent no More, with many testimonies about abortion. There are also testimonies on the Priest for Life website.

www.priestsforlife.com

 

[sanctamaria17]

Exactly. They could just wait three more weeks, deliver early, and take care of the child from there. She doesn’t even have to see the baby if she doesn’t want to.

She’ll have to deliver vaginally if having an abortion anyway. She’s second trimester, so they would poison the baby first and then make her go through labor and deliver a dead baby. Either way, her little body still has to go through some form of delivery.

Also, if the baby is allowed to live, since she was raped, they could take a DNA sample from the child and use it in court against the uncle should he be arrested and charged (and I hope and pray that he is).

They could just put the baby up for adoption and take care of her physically and emotionally. She’ll never have to see the baby again if she doesn’t want to.

I’m praying for this girl and her baby. So sad

 

[Zelie_Louis]

Please participate with charity. If members continue to be sarcastic and lacking in kindness toward one another, then this discussion will be closed.

 

[AmberDale]

The foetus is dependent on this eleven year old; it is not living- not a sentient being. .

:crying: That is NOT what the HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH teaches us! That baby is living, that baby has a soul! Once conceived, that baby is a human and deserves to have a chance. I pray for that little girl, I know she didn’t want this. But that BABY didn’t ask to be killed.
I’ll pray for you to miss Pong. Obviously you view things differently than the Catholic Church. If you are Catholic, this is not one of those teaches we get to disagree with and you should already know that.

 

[sanctamaria17]

And yes, it does feel. At 21 weeks, it has a heartbeat, brainwaves, all internal organs and systems, and it moves and kicks in the womb. I was a premed student, I had to learn about embryology.

In three more weeks, this baby will have reached viability. That’s when doctors could do an early delivery and take care of the baby, so the girl doesn’t have to go through three more months of this. And the baby wouldn’t have to die.

Either way, she would have to deliver the baby, because she’s second trimester. The difference would lie in whether the baby was born dead or alive. And if she delivered early, she wouldn’t have the issue of whether her body can handle a full-term pregnancy.

Honestly, WHY are they putting so much effort into securing an abortion for this girl when they could put more energy into finding this guy and PUTTING HIM BEHIND BARS!! Punish the CRIMINAL, not the BABY.

 

[gettingthere]

Wow, this is so sad.
I feel so badly for this 11 year old girl and I hope and pray that someone is able to get her good counseling.

I definitely think that she’d be better off delivering the baby. Either way it is going to affect her physically, and at least if she delivers a live baby, the emotional affects of this situation will not be as severe.

 

[psr13]

This hits me pretty close to home. My cousin was born at 24 weeks in 1981 and is perfectly fine now. Just thinking that this baby is only 3 weeks younger than that and will be killed is very sad. If my cousin lived in 1981, this baby would have a good chance in 2008. How sad that they are killing the baby. I’ll say a prayer.

 

[Belgarion]

Name calling is against forum rules; I have reported you.

Cry me a river

No, we have not established this as a fact. No poster here has examined this child; a few have cited cases where children have had succesful pregnancies, but since we are not talking about any of those aforementioned cases, the point is moot.

The point is completely valid. You’re arguing that the child’s body cannot take it, yet you’re rejecting witness claims of similar cases where a young girl of that age DID handle it.

But she still has to endure the remainder of the pregnancy and the delivery.

And?
Gosh…I would have guessed if pregnancy was so unbearable, we’d be extinct

Right. The child should not have to suffer. This eleven year old girl should not be forced to carry a pregnancy to term because of any outsider’s beliefs.

That’s a foolish claim.
So its better that the unborn baby (who feels that pain the goes with an abortion) suffers and dies, instead of the mother just simply suffering temporarily.
Right…

Eh hem. Aborting foetuses is absolutely not allowed under any circumstance according to the Catholic Church, save for instances when double effect is at play. Maybe you would like to clarify your own theological misunderstandings before correcting mine.

You’re very attitude is disgusting. Its called a “baby”.
Anyways. The principle of double effect does not apply to abortions. Double effect is defined as the following:
1. The acts performed must be good or at least indifferent
2. The evils effect must not produce the good effect, for then it would be a bad means used for a good end. The evil effect must either follow the good effect or occur simultaneously with it
3.There must be a sufficiently serious reason calling for the good effect of the action. That is, the good must outweigh the harmful results
4. The person acting must directlywill the good effect. He must not directly will the evil effect, but merely permit it. In other words, his intentions must be good
Sound like you need a lesson.
The principle of double effect only applies to good deeds causing some sort of evil. Not the other way around.

.

And? How many do you know? Three, ten, five hundred? Even if you knew a thousand you still would not know a significant enough number of women who have mental issues directly related to abortion to even be statistically significant.

And for some reason you know that a majority of women who’ve had abortions never regretted it?
Wow, I must be in the presence of God…you know what they’re all thinking

Again…and? More anecdotal evidence which does very little to support your case.

Yeah I guess you’re right. Suicide because of mental instability which occured with contributions from abortions REALLY isn’t a serious problem

You don’t know that. You may hold that opinion, but it doesn’t make it fact. There is no reliable way to tell if this girl will be mentally affected by abortion. Statistically speaking, the odds are in her favour.

Statistically speaking, you are not going to succeed in proving a point here. Wanna know why?
Because better people that you have tried, and failed due to flaws in logical as well as spiritual thinking.
You’re flawed. You’re reasoning is flawed, as well as your statistical analysis. Where’d you get your info from planned parenthood’s website?
heh

It is the product of a rape and a foetus both.

“baby”

Wait… you just said it was a baby… now it’s a child? It’s aged very quickly in just a few sentences. The foetus is dependent on this eleven year old; it is not living- not a sentient being. An abortion may or may not be traumatic to this girl; we don’t know. But it is her choice to make.

Oh ho ho ho
you’ve opened up a can of worms you can’t possibly close.

The baby is a LIVING being. Both scientifically, and theologically.
(You’re committing a mortal sin with this rejection of the Church’s teachings. Go to confession and repent. You’re also sinning against logic. Grab a medical textbook, and follow along.)

My mother is a doctor. Her medical textbooks DARED to say that life begins at conception.
Strike one.
Unborn babies have many developmental stages. Let’s examine 8 weeks. At this point, the baby has a nervous system (can feel pain) The baby’s internal organs are complete. Muscles, teeth buds, and even digestive juices are present. The brain is complete as well. The brain itself has an EEG. The child (interchageable with ‘baby’) has a permanent bone structure and even formed facial features.
Strike two.

Oh, and what does a jellyfish (a living being according to the scientific world) have? Not a brain…nor a heart…And yet…its alive? what!! HAHAHA!
Strike 3. You’re OUT

 

[shannyk]

Pong,you have a lot of chutzpah calling yourself Catholic. I really hope you avoid going to communion until you reconcile yourself with Church teaching on this matter.

Pregnancy, while it can be painful and traumatic for an 11 yr old girl, is something she can recover from and heal from. The body, and minds of human being are not SO fragile that they can’t recover, with some help and support, from something like this. God uses situations like this to affect people in ALL kinds of unimaginable ways. It’s no argument at all to say that simply because there is pain and suffering, that the ultimate evil is justified.

So, maybe you should come up with another argument that makes sense. But then again I have heard them ALL and none of them do so, you can just save it

 

[Calliso]

I am curious how far along was she when they found out she was pregnant? Cause you know it is almost pointless at this point now that I think about it to offer her the option of an abortion. I mean the fetus is almost viable at this point and at this point having the abortion might be as physically tramuatic as giving birth. That poor girl though I couldn;t even imagine being raped then getting pregnant…then being told I could not get an abortion. at first only to be told after I had already carried it to almost viablity that oh I could go get an abortion now if I wanted. That would just feel like a slap to the face.

As for castration being too harsh for the guy that raped her I disagree totally. I think they should be cut off with a dull knife. And I think even then that wouldn;t repay what he did to this 11 year old girl.

 

[duskyjewel]

Belgarion, all your posts have been excellent, especially the last one. Anyone who thinks a fetus is not living is truly deluding themselves. By even the most secular of definitions, it is a living thing. It takes in nutrients and metabolizes them, producing waste products, it grows and develops, and it responds to stimuli. That is the biological definition of life. Even e. coli bacteria, which have no independent existence outside of being beneficial parasites in our intestines, are alive. How can anyone say a fetus/embryo/zygote/blastocyst is not?

I pray that if my daughter ended up in this situation, I would have the courage and help from God to make the right decisions.

If it was true that my daughter could be killed or permanently disabled by the pregnancy or birth… I really don’t know what I would do! But I also know that I would never want to sentence my daughter to a lifetime of regret knowing that her first baby was killed.

I hope all our prayers do this little girl some good… because she is a little girl.

 

[masondoggy]

I have to wonder if this abortion is really what the girl wants or if she is being forced/coerced into it by her parents. It happens waaaay too often.

 

[JadensMom]

You dare call yourself a Catholic?

Be glad you’re not within arms reach… :knight2: deep breath

His comment upset me more than it should have.
I will say a prayer for you Pong; you need it.

gasp Did you just threaten another poster with VIOLENCE? And you dare call yourself a Catholic? Catholicism is about faith and love, not bullying. I will say a prayer for you, as obviously you need it!

If Pong had been within arm’s reach, what would you have done to HER, eh?

The link isn’t working for me, but I think castration is a little… severe, unless perhaps he’s raped someone before (speaking from a guy’s perspective: NOT something to be done lightly).

Castration is “a little severe” for a man who RAPED his 11-year-old niece? You don’t think the incestuous rape of a child is bad enough to warrant serious punishment without adding the rape of another woman or child as well? You seem awfully protective of a rapist’s bodily integrity there, when it’s that little girl who’s got to suffer invasive surgery or the pain of an unwanted childbirth because of what he did. What about her?

Not only are you making threats of violence against a female poster, you don’t think RAPE is a serious crime meriting punishment? I guarantee you, that if that little girl has to undergo an abortion, or has to give birth to the unwanted child of her rapist at ELEVEN YEARS OLD, she’s suffered (and is continuing to suffer) a far worse violation of her body’s integrity than mere castration. That’s nothing compared to what this innocent child is going through. You are aware that women sometimes DIE in childbirth, sir?

I say castration is too good for the uncle – regardless of what the federal government says, I’m still all in favor of the death penalty for criminals who rape children.

I’ve never heard anything so misogynistic in my life.

 

[Caesar517]

I will say a prayer for you, as obviously you need it!

I thank you for your prayer.

Not only are you making threats of violence against a female poster, you don’t think RAPE is a serious crime meriting punishment?

I don’t think I made a threat against anyone. Halfway through my post, I decided that prayer was the best course of action. The first part of my post reflected my initial reactions.

I don’t recall saying that rape is not a serious crime, nor do I recall saying that he should not be punished.

I guarantee you, that if that little girl has to undergo an abortion, or has to give birth to the unwanted child of her rapist at ELEVEN YEARS OLD, she’s suffered (and is continuing to suffer) a far worse violation of her body’s integrity than mere castration. That’s nothing compared to what this innocent child is going through. You are aware that women sometimes DIE in childbirth, sir?

[sarcasm]Wait, you mean childbirth is painful and dangerous? I had no idea! [/sarcasm]

I think you are motivated by revenge. Castrating the offender won’t make the rape go away, nor will it alleviate the pain of this girl. I think castration is justified if there is a reason to believe that he will rape again; it may stop him from doing so. Does he regret his crime? Has he repented? Is he likely to do it again? I can’t answer those questions, so I don’t think I can support castration.

I say castration is too good for the uncle – regardless of what the federal government says, I’m still all in favor of the death penalty for criminals who rape children.

This is not a pro-life stance. Again, you seem motivated by revenge.

I’ve never heard anything so misogynistic in my life.

I sincerely doubt that’s true. You think I hate women because I don’t support revenge? I find this amusing. I have more respect for women than many women have for themselves (evidence is given by cleavage and the like).

If Pong being female, the victim being female, and the uncle being male is enough to make you think I hate women, then so be it. I must hate women.

On the other hand, every women that knows me would disagree with you.

 

[JLongoria]

I think that all the people here who are claiming to be pro-choice/pro-death Catholics need to seriously consider taking a course in Natural Law ethics.

Abortion is never justified - as the infallible Church teaches, it is an intrinsic evil. That is, the action itself is always immoral and unjustifiable, so by extension, the principle of double effect could never apply.

 

[wifenmommy]

Methinks I smell a troll…Pong! I cant *imagine a Catholic coming here and saying this…*And if you are a Catholic, ms Pong, then what Catholic planet could you be from that would condone the murder of an innocent baby? Abortion=murder plain and simple and I just hope and pray one day that this ignorant, selfish, evil society would understand this simple concept!

 

[CatholicSam]

But it is her choice to make.

No it’s not. :nope: And a baby is a child, for your information.

 

[JadensMom]

I don’t think I made a threat against anyone.

Yes, you did.

You dare call yourself a Catholic?

Be glad you’re not within arms reach… :knight2:

That is a clear and overt threat of violence.

Halfway through my post, I decided that prayer was the best course of action. The first part of my post reflected my initial reactions.

If you didn’t threaten violence, then why are you justifying your threat in your very next sentences?

[sarcasm]Wait, you mean childbirth is painful and dangerous? I had no idea! [/sarcasm]

If you dare speak lightly of the pain and potential mortality involved in childbirth, then you’re even more misogynistic than I originally thought. Speaking as a mother who labored sixteen hours to bring my son into the world and who required a blood transfusion afterwards – you have NO idea, pal. None at all. I’m astonished at your lack of compassion.

I dare you to go speak flippantly of the pain and mortality of childbirth before the woman who bore YOUR children (if you have any.) And I hope you’re not within arm’s reach when you do it.

I think you are motivated by revenge.

Then the the U.S. Penal Code is motivated by revenge, because the U.S. Justice system mandates eight years in prison for every count of rape perpetuated against an adult victim. It’s even worse if the victim is a child related to the perpetrator.

Castrating the offender won’t make the rape go away, nor will it alleviate the pain of this girl. I think castration is justified if there is a reason to believe that he will rape again; it may stop him from doing so. Does he regret his crime? Has he repented? Is he likely to do it again?

There are some instances in which “I’m sorry, I repent” just doesn’t cut it. A man who rapes his own 11-year-old niece is a monster who deserves to go to prison, and the rough justice he’ll receive at the hands of his fellow inmates will make castration look kind.

This is not a pro-life stance.

I’m PRO the little girl’s life. The uncle has removed himself from the realm of law-abiding human beings by what he did to that child. I’m PRO the death penalty for depraved indifference to life and crimes against children, as well.

I have more respect for women than many women have for themselves (evidence is given by cleavage and the like).

Okay, so it’s not okay to wear a low-cut top in your worldview, but saying “I’m sorry I raped my 11-year-old niece and got her pregnant, I won’t do it again” is enough to make everything all better?

I’m speechless with horror.