Abortion, assisted suicide, murder are not immoral

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These things are not immoral or at least not grave sins. Humans are created in the image of God and God can not die so it follows that since (if scripture is to be belived) we are created in the image god we to can not die, therefore death is not real and if death is not real than it is pointless to debate the morality of abortion, assisted suicide ext, since they do not really exist. it is like debateing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
 
…wut?

Keyword there is “image”. We are made in the “image” of God. We do not inherit the perfect qualities of God.

For example, a photo of a person is an image of a person. But does that photo think and feel like that person? No.
 
I’m usually not the kind to sound judgemental, but how can you honestly call yourself a Catholic?
 
jpk1313 said:
These things are not immoral or at least not grave sins. Humans are created in the image of God and God can not die so it follows that since (if scripture is to be belived) we are created in the image god we to can not die, therefore death is not real and if death is not real than it is pointless to debate the morality of abortion, assisted suicide ext, since they do not really exist. it is like debateing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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A very interesting argument!

Moral philosophy is too complex for me: I simply try to live well (which involves not murdering).

Your conclusions, though interesting, are neither Catholic nor very moral. Most sane people would think killing people is both possible and wrong, whether or not they have some immortal aspect to them.
 
jpk1313 said:
These things are not immoral or at least not grave sins. Humans are created in the image of God and God can not die In HIS humanity, JESUS died. In our humanity we die. In the humanity of an infant still in the womb, he/she can die. Abortion is murder. You go into a womens womb and cut the baby into little pieces, what part of that don’t you see as dieing, or mortal sin, or death?

so it follows that since (if scripture is to be belived) we are created in the image god we to can not die, therefore death is not real and if death is not real than it is pointless to debate the morality of abortion, assisted suicide ext, since they do not really exist. it is like debateing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.Padre Pio was approached by a man with a similar claim. He was declaring that he did not believe in hell. Padre Pio having the gift of discernment, looked at the man and said, “you will when you get there”. Confusing yourself to the truth, does not create a new truth, just confusion.
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jpk1313 said:
These things are not immoral or at least not grave sins. Humans are created in the image of God and God can not die so it follows that since (if scripture is to be belived) we are created in the image god we to can not die, therefore death is not real and if death is not real than it is pointless to debate the morality of abortion, assisted suicide ext, since they do not really exist. it is like debateing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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“Thou shalt not kill”, God’s own commandment, should be enough indication for anyone that it IS both immoral and a grave sin to murder.

Being in the ‘big 10’, murder is morally in the same category as idolatry, blasphemy, adultery, theft, perjury and breaches of the other commandments, which are definitely grave matter.
 
jpk1313 said:
These things are not immoral or at least not grave sins. Humans are created in the image of God and God can not die so it follows that since (if scripture is to be belived) we are created in the image god we to can not die, therefore death is not real and if death is not real than it is pointless to debate the morality of abortion, assisted suicide ext, since they do not really exist. it is like debateing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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So… What exactly did God mean when He gave Moses the Fifth Commandment?

I presume that you also disagree with Catholic teachings against abortion. Is that also true?
 
I think that the OP wasn’t really proposing these things to be true, but opening up a philosophical argument.

At least, I hope that’s what OP was doing.
 
jpk1313 said:
These things are not immoral or at least not grave sins. Humans are created in the image of God and God can not die so it follows that since (if scripture is to be belived) we are created in the image god we to can not die, therefore death is not real and if death is not real than it is pointless to debate the morality of abortion, assisted suicide ext, since they do not really exist. it is like debateing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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I’m wondering if this is just a Devil’s Advocate kind of post - because that is just seriously warped. There’s no rational Philosophy in that statement.

E.A.
 
The OP is misunderstanding death among otherthings. Death does not imply that one ceases to exist. It is true that humans are by nature immortal, but death is the seperation of the soul and body, and it truly is immoral to unjustly seperate a person’s soul from their body. You do not cause them to cease to exist, but you do kill them.
 
Katholish said:
The OP is misunderstanding death among otherthings. Death does not imply that one ceases to exist. It is true that humans are by nature immortal, but death is the seperation of the soul and body, and it truly is immoral to unjustly seperate a person’s soul from their body. You do not cause them to cease to exist, but you do kill them.
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Amen … exactly. Very nice distinction.
 
Katholish said:
The OP is misunderstanding death among otherthings. Death does not imply that one ceases to exist. It is true that humans are by nature immortal, but death is the seperation of the soul and body, and it truly is immoral to unjustly seperate a person’s soul from their body. You do not cause them to cease to exist, but you do kill them.
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Then it would follow that God in making it so that we eventualy seperate from the body is commiting an immoral act which does not make sense if we accept that God contains all that is good. So if God is truly good and he created us so that the body and soul will seperate how does it follow that it is immoral for there to be a seperation? The moral law to be truly a law must be universal and apply to everyone or else it becomes just a suggestion. So if assisted suicide is immoral why would God “taking them when its their time” not be immoral since the end result is the same?
 
jpk1313 said:
These things are not immoral or at least not grave sins. Humans are created in the image of God and God can not die so it follows that since (if scripture is to be belived) we are created in the image god we to can not die, therefore death is not real and if death is not real than it is pointless to debate the morality of abortion, assisted suicide ext, since they do not really exist. it is like debateing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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Well, excuse my bluntness, but this is one of the stupidest passages I have ever read.

Ask why God gave Moses Ten Commandments, one of which is ‘Thou Shalt Not Kill’.
If abortion, assisted suicide, murder, etc do not really result in ‘death’, because we are like God and cannot die, then why did God command us to not terminate life? Obviously he differentiated between eternal life and life on Earth and to uneccesarily terminate the latter is, in His eyes, a grave wrong. Hence his imperative to not kill. That moral imperative has been enshrined in the law of the land as a legal and moral edict and has therefore recognised the intrinsic worth of every human life as decreed by God.

Abortion, assisted suicide, euthenasia, all chip away at the moral edict given by God.
 
jpk1313 said:
Then it would follow that God in making it so that we eventualy seperate from the body is commiting an immoral act which does not make sense if we accept that God contains all that is good. So if God is truly good and he created us so that the body and soul will seperate how does it follow that it is immoral for there to be a seperation? The moral law to be truly a law must be universal and apply to everyone or else it becomes just a suggestion. So if assisted suicide is immoral why would God “taking them when its their time” not be immoral since the end result is the same?
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We die, are separated body from soul, as a consequence of our first parents fall from Grace. For that sin God judged them justly and the just sentence on mankind was that he will suffer death. God does not commit an immoral act as He acts justly when He judged man.
We, however, are told we must not judge as God judges, presumably because we cannot truly judge men justly, and consequently we have not the knowledge nor authority to pass sentence of death on man, morally.
 
jpk1313 said:
Then it would follow that God in making it so that we eventualy seperate from the body is commiting an immoral act which does not make sense if we accept that God contains all that is good. So if God is truly good and he created us so that the body and soul will seperate how does it follow that it is immoral for there to be a seperation? The moral law to be truly a law must be universal and apply to everyone or else it becomes just a suggestion. So if assisted suicide is immoral why would God “taking them when its their time” not be immoral since the end result is the same?
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No. Death is the result of sin. Had Adam and Eve not committed original sin, we would not die.
 
jpk1313 said:
Then it would follow that God in making it so that we eventualy seperate from the body is commiting an immoral act which does not make sense if we accept that God contains all that is good. So if God is truly good and he created us so that the body and soul will seperate how does it follow that it is immoral for there to be a seperation? The moral law to be truly a law must be universal and apply to everyone or else it becomes just a suggestion. So if assisted suicide is immoral why would God “taking them when its their time” not be immoral since the end result is the same?
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You are operating under a premise that for a law to be universal, it must somehow bind God. Not so. Natural law theory can only extend to those things which we are capable of understanding to some extent. Even if you accept God’s existence (which is not necessary for natural law), then you could still see that we are in no position to understand the morality or immorality of acts done outside of time. not only is it beyond analysis, but it is beyond imagination what an eternal act would truly be like.

The natural law is universal for rational beings, not non-rational beings. (God is intellectual, but non-rational because refers to a discursive process in time.)

There is also an issue of stewardship/ownership. We can recognize that it is moral for a man to eat his own food, but not moral for a man to eat someone else’s food. In the same way, the life of another human being is not ultimately our own, whereas all life belongs to God (if you are pre-supposing His existence). [This argument obviously applies more to murder than suicide.]
 
jpk1313 said:
Then it would follow that God in making it so that we eventualy seperate from the body is commiting an immoral act which does not make sense if we accept that God contains all that is good. So if God is truly good and he created us so that the body and soul will seperate how does it follow that it is immoral for there to be a seperation? The moral law to be truly a law must be universal and apply to everyone or else it becomes just a suggestion. So if assisted suicide is immoral why would God “taking them when its their time” not be immoral since the end result is the same?
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Dude, stay off drugs.
Your last trip on mushrooms might have done huge harm to your brain cells.
(forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5536280#post5536280)

Meanwhile, perhaps you could devote yourself to prayer and spiritual reading.
The Life of the Saints would be a good start.

You seem to be imagining that you ARE God,
rather than a creature/being who is made in His image.
 
When God first created humans (Adam and Eve in Genesis) they have been created in a state of grace, they perfect. they are immortal body and soul. It is only through the effects of sin and that fall of grace, that we as humans lose the immortality of our bodies and suffer the consequence of death. Since every person is born with that stain of original sin, we all suffer the consequence of death. It was our choice to turn from God and choose death, dealing with matters of abortion and euthanasia, we must not again choose to turn from god and inflict death on the less able and also ourselves. 👍
 
Just to clarify, even in the Garden, man was not naturally immortal. Immortality was a preternatural gifts, which means it was something above their nature which was given to them. Adam and Eve were still mortal by nature, but were preserved from death by a special gift, one that would have continued had they not sinned (so it is true to say that sin is the cause of death).

Some posters have been giving me the impression that they think Adam and Even were immortal by nature before the fall. It is a minor thing, but worth clarifying.
 
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