Abortion confuses me

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Abbadon

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I was replying to a moral stance that confused me, which reminded me of another one.

Okay theists are anti-abortion and atheists and others are pro- abortion. To me it seems that it should be the other way around.

My reasoning. When an unborn baby dies I’m sure that god would not let anything bad happen to it’s soul as it hasn’t had a choice in anything. So truly no real harm ever comes to the unborn baby so why all the fuss? And also it’s not like god doesn’t know who will and who will not have an abortion, he sees all and knows all. So he already knows which child is being aborted so maybe there isn’t even a soul in that one (that is purely speculative), but I’m sure god has some contingency in place… It is god after all

Then people who don’t believe in souls afterlife etc… Each existence should be given an opportunity to exist should it not? So shouldn’t you be pro-life because there is a consciousness that has an opportunity to exist. There is nothing beyond so doesn’t every existence deserve the chance to exist, even a tortured existence is still the opportunity to experience existence, for which we will never have another chance…

Interested to hear the responses… I should probably post this on an atheists forum to…
 
Abbadon said:
I was replying to a moral stance that confused me, which reminded me of another one.

Okay theists are anti-abortion and atheists and others are pro- abortion. To me it seems that it should be the other way around.

My reasoning. When an unborn baby dies I’m sure that god would not let anything bad happen to it’s soul as it hasn’t had a choice in anything. So truly no real harm ever comes to the unborn baby so why all the fuss? And also it’s not like god doesn’t know who will and who will not have an abortion, he sees all and knows all. So he already knows which child is being aborted so maybe there isn’t even a soul in that one (that is purely speculative), but I’m sure god has some contingency in place… It is god after all
By your definitions murder and suicide should be no biggie either.
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suicide no biggie again that is the individuals choice, murder is different as the being in question has consciousness and intellect. Kind of like eating a highly evolved species it’s just not right… But i’m starting to see the whole in my reasoning…
 
Abbadon said:
I was replying to a moral stance that confused me, which reminded me of another one.

Okay theists are anti-abortion and atheists and others are pro- abortion. To me it seems that it should be the other way around.

My reasoning. When an unborn baby dies I’m sure that god would not let anything bad happen to it’s soul as it hasn’t had a choice in anything. So truly no real harm ever comes to the unborn baby so why all the fuss? And also it’s not like god doesn’t know who will and who will not have an abortion, he sees all and knows all. So he already knows which child is being aborted so maybe there isn’t even a soul in that one (that is purely speculative), but I’m sure god has some contingency in place… It is god after all

Then people who don’t believe in souls afterlife etc… Each existence should be given an opportunity to exist should it not? So shouldn’t you be pro-life because there is a consciousness that has an opportunity to exist. There is nothing beyond so doesn’t every existence deserve the chance to exist, even a tortured existence is still the opportunity to experience existence, for which we will never have another chance…

Interested to hear the responses… I should probably post this on an atheists forum to…
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LIFE is God’s most precious gift outside of salvation itself…and your reasoning is flawed…it’s not permissible to commit an evil (murder an unborn baby) in or that a good might come from it.

Since athiests do not have this moral frame of reference survival of the fittest rules…and life itself has no value, it’s all about the me the here and the now. A baby gets in the way of that…so kill the baby.
 
Yea i see the flaw now. It’s all to do with the concept of murder. To an atheist the death of a first trimester embryo is nothing more than killing a plant. Where as to a theist it is the death of a life as that life has a soul…
 
Abbadon said:
So truly no real harm ever comes to the unborn baby so why all the fuss?
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You really are confused about abortion. There is great harm that comes to that unborn baby - it is murdered; killed.

We are much more than a consciousness. We are a body and soul composite - we are human beings not floating consciousnesses. After all, look at the ‘Person’ Jesus Christ who took on our nature and became - man - not a consciousness.
 
I just saw your most recent post - it not only has to do with the concept of murder but also your understanding of man and what man is. This would include your understanding of conception which is the first moment of a person’s existence.
 
Theists respond to a higher authority. One who commands us: “Thou shalt not kill”

Atheists have no such higher authority, and live by: “Do what thou wilt”
 
Abbadon said:
Yea i see the flaw now. It’s all to do with the concept of murder. To an atheist the death of a first trimester embryo is nothing more than killing a plant. Where as to a theist it is the death of a life as that life has a soul…
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Well, there ya go. 👍

And to Catholics, that life goes all the way back to the moment of conception.
 
The argument is flawed in that one, we have great hope of salvation for these little souls who were murdered in their mother’s womb; however, we really don’t know for sure. Second, abortion does great damage to the parents of the child, especially the mother. Talk to anyone who has ever been to a Rachael’s vineyard retreat and you very quickly get a sense for the emotional and spiritual pain these women suffer because of the abortion. The baby isn’t the only victim here. Third, what everyone else had already said.
 
I think you are being too general. I know plenty of atheists, or agnostics who are pro life on all accounts, even contraception! But interesting discussion nonetheless.
 
Not all theists are pro-life, just as not all atheists are pro-abortion. There are plenty of theists who supoort abortion, just as there are plenty of atheists who think ANY type of murder, including murder of the unborn, is repulsive.
 
Not all atheists are pro-abortion. Here is a website for Atheists for Life.
godlessprolifers.org/home.html

Not all who claim to be Christian are pro-life and opposed to abortion. There are, in fact, many people who falsely claim to be Catholic who support killing babies. CCC 2279 clearly demonstrates you cannot be Catholic and support abortion by stating that anyone who is involved in a procured abortion is automatically excommunicated.
 
To all atheists reading this, may I respectfully point out that all of us began life as an embryo. There are specialists called embryologists who study the human embryo. The human embryo has value to scientists because it is human. It is a scientifically provable fact that once the sperm and egg unite, a unique genetic combination comes into being, a unique human being. So the science behind this is there.

As Christians, we try to do the will of God as best we can. God, unlike man, is perfect and uncorruptible. The commandments of God give us life more abundantly. Jesus Christ points to our origin and final destination. Even though God knows all, we have a will and that will needs to be in obedience to Him. The baby that is aborted is/was alive and God will have the final say at the time of judgement.

God bless,
Ed
 
Abbadon said:
suicide no biggie again that is the individuals choice, murder is different as the being in question has consciousness and intellect. Kind of like eating a highly evolved species it’s just not right… But i’m starting to see the whole in my reasoning…
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I really have a hard time with the highlighted part of your statement. What makes you think that the person who is on the street screaming for help is anymore conscious than the child whose limbs are being ripped apart and brain being sucked out? I always find this statement the most appalling of all the pro-murder statements. Just because you can hear one victim scream and not the other does not change the fact that they are both being equally murdered.
 
kettle said:
Not all theists are pro-life, just as not all atheists are pro-abortion. There are plenty of theists who supoort abortion, just as there are plenty of atheists who think ANY type of murder, including murder of the unborn, is repulsive.
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Well said. The problem with stereotypes, or lumping together large groups of people under simple headings, is that it dehumanizes each individual in that group. Once we start devaluing any human life, it becomes frightenly easy to lose sight of why Murder, Abortion, and Euthenasia are all unfallible teachings for us.

Remember, Pope John Paul II severely condemned even capital punishment in Evangelium Vitae. If we have grave concerns for human beings whom we belief to have performed heinous acts, how can we justify denigrading people whose only ‘crime’ is that they have not yet found their way to their Savior and the Mother Church?
 
st_lucy said:
I really have a hard time with the highlighted part of your statement. What makes you think that the person who is on the street screaming for help is anymore conscious than the child whose limbs are being ripped apart and brain being sucked out? I always find this statement the most appalling of all the pro-murder statements. Just because you can hear one victim scream and not the other does not change the fact that they are both being equally murdered.
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Yea your point of view is totally agreeable. And i agree that is why I’m a vegiterian. Actually no I’m not (I’m just wanting your response implying that you should be a vegiterian, actually i just realized animals do scream when you kill them, WOW you definately better be a vegiterian) I got to say I’m very survival of the fittest, but that in mind i would find it rather creepy to eat something that has the capacity for higher thinking. Although i don’t think eating such another bieng is wrong. I mean animals are not as intelligent or as evolved as us. So if there is a species more evolved than us i would be moraly okay with them eating us. Although i would find the concept of eating them icky… But if i had to i would…

Yea this is an interesting thought. If you don’t believe in a soul then killing an embryo without consciousness ot feeling is fine. Because then it’s like killing an animal which we do all the time. Even if it then has a soul so do animals so it’s still iffy, i mean what are angels beside heavens animals. Oh man my thoughts are going everywhere…
 
You’re missing another point in this argument. An abortion not only kills a baby, it can physically and psychologically harm the woman who has it. Many women who have had abortions suffer their whole lives because of it. They have severely increased risk of depression, suicide, and a slew of medical problems. The current laws also have an effect on the father, who has no say so if his own child is murdered. That can be devestating. The effect on extended family also must be taken into consideration. Realizing that your grandchild or sibling has been killed can be depressing as well and harm family relationships.
 
I had this reasoning put to me by some fundamentalists I work with when I tried to discuss abortion once and how it needs to be illegal. Their view was that we don’t need to do anything about it because God will take care of the innocent unborn soul and will deal justice to the abortionist and whoever else is culpable in the matter when they die.

I wonder if a baby was attacked in front of them if they would do anything to try to save that baby’s life or if they would just sit back and say - “We don’t need to try to save this innocent child from being killed. God has everything under control and will deal justly with all parties in the fullness of time.”

I don’t know how atheists think so I can’t really comment from their point of view, but offhand, I’d say that they don’t really care one way or the other, unless it was their child being aborted.
 
legeorge said:
You’re missing another … and harm family relationships.
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Oh guys don’t get me wrong I no way have enough knowledge to have a specific stance on abortion, so i will allow people who do have a greater understanding make that call. I really think if people can’t have i child they shouldn’t get pregnant in the first place and should take measures to do so. Beyond food i don’t like the killing of any sentient being…

And i totaly agree with your point legeroge. And it’s a point that most people miss…

I was simply puting some thoughts out there…
 
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