Abortion debate - help required

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I am debating abortion with a friend. But I am not very good at it.

He views the early stages of human life as ‘just a bunch of cells’.

How do I convince him that human life begins at conception and that every human life is precious?

He doesn’t believe in God, certainly not the conception of God that we as Catholics have. He doesn’t believe in the authority of the bible or the Church or Jesus Christ.

I’d appreciate links to excellent websites, and also any tips you can use in discussions with such individuals.

This same individual would object to me swatting a fly, but won’t grant the same protection to the unborn child, particularly those in the earliest stages of development, to which he refers to as no more than ‘germs’.

Thanks in advance,

tf
 
Just ask him straight up at what point he thinks HIS life began. If he gives you some BS answer like, when he was born, ask him about the ten minutes before he exited his mothers womb, the ten hours before he exited his mothers womb and so on. Get him back to the very specific point where he believes that HIS own life began. What at two months past conception? Why then? What happened at two months past his conception that made him magically come alive?

Keep pressing him on. I guarantee you you will get him to shut up or he will change the subject.
 
It sounds as though this individual has hardened his heart against so much truth that civil discussion is unlikely to bear much fruit. The best approach is to withdraw and just pray for him.
 
Thanks dude, that is a good one. He did cop out earlier, he said he was tired and wanted to go to bed, but at the same time convinced of the ‘rightness’ of his own argument.

In the end he said we cannot know absolute right or wrong, but when pushed, said it would be wrong of me to cheat with his girlfriend!!!
 
Other_Eric said:
It sounds as though this individual has hardened his heart against so much truth that civil discussion is unlikely to bear much fruit. The best approach is to withdraw and just pray for him.
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Yes I am afraid that this may well be the case.

I gave him a copy of Chris West’s book - Good News about Sex and Marriage - as well as a copy of an explanatory booklet about the film, The Passion of the Christ. I don’t think he wants to read them, he may be afraid of the effect they may have on him!

His name is Andrew.
 
If he’s at all into philosophy, you can always throw Aristotle at him!

When the sperm and egg combine, you have a new set of DNA that, left to its own devices in the safety of the womb, will probably survive to be born in nine months. Age and location, to use Aristotole, are only “accidents;” they have no bearing on the reality of what something IS (“substance”). So, with our modern scientific knowledge, it should be easy to accept that that one-celled organism of the fertilized egg is no less human than a five-year-old, just as the five-year-old is just as human as the larger, older, and more “useful” fifty-year-old Nobel Prize-winning scientist. The scientist in his lab is no more or less human than he is when he leaves his lab; the location does not change his substance, which is human. Dependency is just another accident, not substance; someone on welfare or on life support in the hospital after an accident is not less human than someone who doesn’t need that assistance. Even impending death, whether of a genetically damaged fetus or of a speeding motorist on the freeway, does not make either one of them less human.

SO, a developing baby may be located in his/her mother’s womb, be totally dependent on her for nurishment and protection, not be as old as a newborn yet, and may even be so disabled that he/she won’t live long enough to be born, but none of this makes him/her not human. Therefore, the baby is worthy of protection from the moment of conception.

St. Thomas Aquinas used Aristotle to explain the Eucharist (but don’t tell that to your atheist friend yet!). The appearance of bread and wine are the accidents; after the consecration, they still look, smell, and taste the same as before. However, their substance has changed; they are now Christ’s Body and Blood.
 
During his studies at medical school, a friend of mine relayed to me a lecture he attended one day in his medical ethics class. The professor gave this scenario to his students:

A pregnant woman and her husband come to you for medical care for her pregnancy. They both have syphillis and TB, and currently have children with varying degrees of mental and physical retardation. What would be your advice?

The students were asked to present there opinions on a piece of paper which they all gave to the professor, who then tallied up the opinions. After a few minutes he gave the results, overwhelmingly termination was recommended.

The professor then said, "congratulations, you just terminated Beethoven.

My friend said that you could have heard a pindrop.

Obviously you could argue the other way, ie. aborting Hitler would have saved millions. However the Beethoven thing might get your friend thinking. And in my ever so humble opinion, Hitler may not have been born “Hitler” he may have been raised that way. In other words the potential of any human being cannot be realized unless he/she is given the opportunity to be. Meaning; hate is learned, talent for arts, music, science, math, etc., is inate. One can learn to play the piano, but one is born Beethoven. One can study physics and get through college, but one is born Einstein.
 
Tell him he’s only a cluster of cells. The only difference between him and a recently conceived baby is in the number of cells.
 
I suggest you visit the Library at the Atheists and Agnostics Pro-Life League. The Libertarians For Life also have a website-- check out Doris Gordon’s article in that library as she responds to “pro-choice” Catholics.

One does not have to believe in God to see that abortion is wrong.

For general discourse on abortion, I also highly recommend you get a copy of Randy Alcorn’s book Pro-Life Answer to Pro-Choice Arguments. It’s an invaluable resource.
 
Cheat with his girlfriend???

Wouldn’t that just be a meeting of two different clusters of cells?

What would be the harm?
 
treefrog8 said:
How do I convince him that human life begins at conception and that every human life is precious?
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Separate these two issues. Proving the first part should be easy: it is a fact that is not debated within the scientific community. Here is a link that references numerous manuals on embryology as well as Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia. There is no sense in debating the second point until you get your friend to acknowledge that a unique human life exists from the moment of conception.

nebcathcon.org/Proof%20of%20Life.htm

If he concedes that point ask him what scientific criteria he uses to determine at what stage in its development does human life become worthy of protection? Understand that your friend believes in abortion and getting him to relinquish that position really depends on more than logic and facts. He has to acknowledge the implications of the action - the destruction of a human life - but even that won’t necessarily lead him to renounce abortion.

Ender
 
Whatever he thinks is deficient in the preborn, making the baby a “legitimate” target for termination, demonstrate in an adult.

For example: If he thinks the preborn baby lacks consciousness, ask if it’s OK to kill a person who just fainted? His state of “unconsciousness” is temporary, and so is the baby’s.
 
ltbpoe43 said:
Cheat with his girlfriend???

Wouldn’t that just be a meeting of two different clusters of cells?

What would be the harm?
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I think you just gave the pro-abortion divorce lawyers a new angle.
 
treefrog8 said:
How do I convince him that human life begins at conception and that every human life is precious?
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How about this?

Cite a lot of MEDICAL SCIENCE that say that human life begins at conception.

Don’t be afraid. Science is your friend.

nebcathcon.org/educational_info1.htm
abort73.com/HTML/I-A-1-medical.html
physiciansforlife.org/content/view/800/43/

By claiming that the uborn child is not human or not a human being, that is going against science.

Then, demand that the pro-abort explain why we should deny human rights to certain human beings based on their age (less than 0 days old), appearance (hey, they don’t look like us), skin color (their skin color is different than ours right?), sex (some don’t have one!), etc?
 
treefrog8 said:
I am debating abortion with a friend. But I am not very good at it.

He views the early stages of human life as ‘just a bunch of cells’.

How do I convince him that human life begins at conception and that every human life is precious?

He doesn’t believe in God, certainly not the conception of God that we as Catholics have. He doesn’t believe in the authority of the bible or the Church or Jesus Christ.

I’d appreciate links to excellent websites, and also any tips you can use in discussions with such individuals.

This same individual would object to me swatting a fly, but won’t grant the same protection to the unborn child, particularly those in the earliest stages of development, to which he refers to as no more than ‘germs’.

Thanks in advance,

tf
Click to expand...
Here is a website that might be good for atheists:

godlessprolifers.org/home.html

However, in reality, if God does not exist, I think the intellectual case for Pro-Life is totally subjective. If God does not exist, do whatever is convenient for you. That’s what I would do.

Fortunately, some “heathens” seem to be think this is a worthwhile endeavor in spite of their convictions.

Just about any non-violent means to put an end to abortion has my support!
 
marci said:
During his studies at medical school, a friend of mine relayed to me a lecture he attended one day in his medical ethics class. The professor gave this scenario to his students:

A pregnant woman and her husband come to you for medical care for her pregnancy. They both have syphillis and TB, and currently have children with varying degrees of mental and physical retardation. What would be your advice?

The students were asked to present there opinions on a piece of paper which they all gave to the professor, who then tallied up the opinions. After a few minutes he gave the results, overwhelmingly termination was recommended.

The professor then said, "congratulations, you just terminated Beethoven.

My friend said that you could have heard a pindrop.

Obviously you could argue the other way, ie. aborting Hitler would have saved millions. However the Beethoven thing might get your friend thinking. And in my ever so humble opinion, Hitler may not have been born “Hitler” he may have been raised that way. In other words the potential of any human being cannot be realized unless he/she is given the opportunity to be. Meaning; hate is learned, talent for arts, music, science, math, etc., is inate. One can learn to play the piano, but one is born Beethoven. One can study physics and get through college, but one is born Einstein.
Click to expand...
wow ya learn something new every day :eek:
 
Tree fog 8 posted:
How do I convince him that human life begins at conception and that every human life is precious?
Click to expand...
He doesn’t believe in God,
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I don’t see how you can. Take God out of the equation and it is not just the unborn who are ‘just a bunch of cells’, every human being meets that criteria.

Better not to argue as you are never going to convince them and they are unlikely ever to be reconciled to your point of view. It will only lead to you getting hurt and upset.

Far better as someone has suggested: to make a dignified withdrawal and pray for them
 
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