Abortion doc George Tiller gunned down at church

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Dandelion_Wine

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May God have mercy upon his soul.

I didn’t even know he went to church. I assumed he didn’t. How does one go to church after performing abortions?

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_tiller_shooting
Abortion doc George Tiller gunned down at church

WICHITA, Kan. – The attorney for George Tiller says the late-term abortion provider was shot and killed at his church in Wichita, Kan.
Attorney Dan Monnat says Tiller was shot as he served as an usher during Sunday morning services at Reformation Lutheran Church. Monnat said Tiller’s wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time of the shooting.
 
Sadly, I have thought for a while now it was only a matter of time until something like this happened. This will not do anything to help the pro-life cause, and much to hurt it. The whole pro-life cause will be linked in the popular mind to whoever killed this doctor and you can expect the hypocrisy charges to begin.

If the way you talked about something caused someone you knew personally to commit murder and they told you they did it because of what you said, how would you feel?

The escalation in pro-life rhetoric over the past ten years or so has created an environment where it is very easy for someone to conclude that to murder this doctor was morally justified. In some way, has the harsh rhetoric about abortion contributed to this murder? If you don’t care, then do the ends justify the means? Why not advocate for wholescale vigilante justice across the country against abortion doctors? If that’s not OK, then this single act isn’t either.

I would hope that people would begin to recognize that the odds of getting Roe v. Wade overturned in this country in the next hundred years are approximately 0%, especially after an incident like this. If we understand this, I think those of us who are against abortion need to consider that the “battle” (there’s that rhetoric again!) against it needs to be fought in the consciences of individual women in this country who choose to get abortions. If every woman were convinced it was not an acceptable choice to make, there would be no abortions whether or not they were legal.

I fully expect to be attacked on the basis that the law needs to respect human life, it begins at conception, natural law, abortion is murder, etc. I don’t disagree with any of those points (maybe except the last), but we do not live in a Catholic state. We live in a secular/Protestant country, and most Catholics don’t even care or know about the theology and morals of Catholicism, so if that is the citizenry voting in this democracy, the odds of the Catholic moral and legal positions on abortion being enshrined into law are nil.

Witness to your friends and neighbors, get people to learn and accept the fundamentals, and they will accept the pro-life position and there will be fewer abortions. Bring up your kids in the faith and there will be fewer abortions in the future.

Call abortionists and women who get abortions murderers, impotently demand changes in the law affecting people who have no understanding of Catholicism, act like voting for the GOP punches your ticket to heaven, and equate anyone who differs from your view with Satan and this is what you’ll get… and Roe is no closer to being repealed.
 
jpm1977 said:
Sadly, I have thought for a while now it was only a matter of time until something like this happened. This will not do anything to help the pro-life cause, and much to hurt it. The whole pro-life cause will be linked in the popular mind to whoever killed this doctor and you can expect the hypocrisy charges to begin.

If the way you talked about something caused someone you knew personally to commit murder and they told you they did it because of what you said, how would you feel?

The escalation in pro-life rhetoric over the past ten years or so has created an environment where it is very easy for someone to conclude that to murder this doctor was morally justified. In some way, has the harsh rhetoric about abortion contributed to this murder? If you don’t care, then do the ends justify the means? Why not advocate for wholescale vigilante justice across the country against abortion doctors? If that’s not OK, then this single act isn’t either.

I would hope that people would begin to recognize that the odds of getting Roe v. Wade overturned in this country in the next hundred years are approximately 0%, especially after an incident like this. If we understand this, I think those of us who are against abortion need to consider that the “battle” (there’s that rhetoric again!) against it needs to be fought in the consciences of individual women in this country who choose to get abortions. If every woman were convinced it was not an acceptable choice to make, there would be no abortions whether or not they were legal.

I fully expect to be attacked on the basis that the law needs to respect human life, it begins at conception, natural law, abortion is murder, etc. I don’t disagree with any of those points (maybe except the last), but we do not live in a Catholic state. We live in a secular/Protestant country, and most Catholics don’t even care or know about the theology and morals of Catholicism, so if that is the citizenry voting in this democracy, the odds of the Catholic moral and legal positions on abortion being enshrined into law are nil.

Witness to your friends and neighbors, get people to learn and accept the fundamentals, and they will accept the pro-life position and there will be fewer abortions. Bring up your kids in the faith and there will be fewer abortions in the future.

Call abortionists and women who get abortions murderers, impotently demand changes in the law affecting people who have no understanding of Catholicism, act like voting for the GOP punches your ticket to heaven, and equate anyone who differs from your view with Satan and this is what you’ll get… and Roe is no closer to being repealed.
Click to expand...
This Murder has absolutely nothing to do with the pro-life movement. It was the work of a deranged individual who obviously hasn’t a clue as what it means to be pro-life

Roe was very close to be overturned-however the results of the last election make it highly improbable in the near future.
 
I’m wondering how you’ve arrived at the statistical probability of “zero” for overturning Roe v. Wade, especially given the fact that for the first time in 15 years, the majority of Americans polled by Gallup self-identified as pro-life.
 
I was so sad to read this, Jesus wouldn’t want this and I pray for both of them.
I just had a LONG conversation with someone pro-choice about the violience of anti-abortionists and how it is very little and you haven’t heard anything in a while, they aren’t all Catholic, etc. I just know, this will be thrown up in my face and I have nothing to say…you can’t talk of violence to the babies when you can kill a man/woman in cold blood yourself. (and in church!) I hope he knows how much damage he has done.
 
estesbob said:
**This Murder has absolutely nothing to do with the pro-life movement. It was the work of a deranged individual who obviously hasn’t a clue as what it means to be pro-life **

Roe was very close to be overturned-however the results of the last election make it highly improbable in the near future.
Click to expand...
**See the bolded passage above? You have absolutely no way of knowing how the ugly rhetoric and the many mutations of sanctimony we find in the pro-life movement may have influenced this individual. Hold your declarations until the shooter has at least made a statement!

Limerick**
 
I was re-reading this news article and some thoughts on this. Some think it was terrible, some may be happy he can no longer kill our innocent babies (which I am one), some probably don’t care either way.
Knowing that our God is a jealous God. He alone can remove a person from this earth at his choosing, or bless them with much spiritutal gain and help them reach others for His glory.
The last I knew there has been over 40 million babies killed by abortion. This could be higher. But with every life being precious to God our Father, and Tiller was obviously not under God’s protection since he was murdering his babies, perhaps God allowed this to happen to show the world how really tired he is of our lack of respect for human life.
This is a time for all Christians, Catholic, etc., anyone who has given their life to God, to understand that we must have broad shoulders for the attack that may come.
We are not followers of Jesus if we want and expect everything to go smoothly in our lives. That only means we are not striving to serve God. We are not growing in Him if we don’t find conflict in our lives and live through it in a Godly manner.
Prayers that God would bring a trun around in the thinking of society and give them eyes to see Him. Hearts to love Him. Knowledge to know Him. Strength to stand up to evil and be overcomers.
Praying for expectant mothers to find strength and courage to keep their unborn babies. Praying for them to be place where a Christian voice will help lead them in understanding God’s will for their lives and the lives of their babies.
Praying for doctors everywhere, who do abortions, to be awakened to the horrible truth of what they are doing.
Praying that ALL believers will raise up prayers daily to God to give us guidance in how he wants us to pray for the end of abortions. Praying for a united front of believers to stand firm in God and in seeking the protection of the rights of unborn babies to be carried to full term and given a chance to live and know their heavenly Father.
Praying this in Christ Jesus name.
 
We must keep this man and his family in our prayers! May God have mercy on his soul, on and the soul of his murderer. And may we allow God to use this event to draw each of us nearer to His Sacred Heart.
jpm1977 said:
Call abortionists and women who get abortions murderers, impotently demand changes in the law affecting people who have no understanding of Catholicism, act like voting for the GOP punches your ticket to heaven, and equate anyone who differs from your view with Satan and this is what you’ll get… and Roe is no closer to being repealed.
Click to expand...
Abortion is murder.

I’ll say it again: Abortion Is Murder.

And just in case you missed it, I’ll say it one more time: Abortion Is Murder.

Speaking the truth in love does not cause people to murder.

Speaking your opinion, however, as you have done here, as if you and you alone have complete understanding of what caused this violence and how to stop it – well, that does nothing to bring about the change you wish to see in the world.

So just because your opinion differs from those of us who believe and follow Church teaching, that hardly makes the rest of us somehow inferior to your own reasoning :rolleyes:

Abortion is murder.

And as part of the practice of my faith, I will take political, personal, and prayerful actions to bring an end to these murders, your opinion notwithstanding.

Gertie (the apparently grumpy graduate student)
 
limerick said:
See the bolded passage above? You have absolutely no way of knowing how the ugly rhetoric and the many mutations of sanctimony we find in the pro-life movement may have influenced this individual. Hold your declarations until the shooter has at least made a statement!

Limerick
Click to expand...
Can you show me any reputable pro-life organization that calls for the killing of abortion providers? Calling an abortionist a murderer does not justify someone klilling them whether they claim so or not. I say again this has absolutely nothing to do with the pro-life movement.
 
jpm1977 said:
Sadly, I have thought for a while now it was only a matter of time until something like this happened. This will not do anything to help the pro-life cause, and much to hurt it. The whole pro-life cause will be linked in the popular mind to whoever killed this doctor and you can expect the hypocrisy charges to begin.
Click to expand...
What does this have to do with the “pro-life cause”?
If the way you talked about something caused someone you knew personally to commit murder and they told you they did it because of what you said, how would you feel?
Click to expand...
I am not exactly sure what this is supposed to mean, but it sounds like an argument that we should lie rather than tell the truth.
The escalation in pro-life rhetoric over the past ten years or so has created an environment where it is very easy for someone to conclude that to murder this doctor was morally justified.
Click to expand...
An example of the type of “rhetoric” over the past ten years which causes someone to reason that murder is acceptable? Support your claim.
In some way, has the harsh rhetoric (harsh rhetoric? :rolleyes:) about abortion contributed to this murder? If you don’t care, then do the ends justify the means?
Click to expand...
The end: ending abortion. The means: many, many different types, not excluding education on the grisly facts about abortion. Yes, the end justifies the means. That does not even need to be questioned. You are confused on cause and effect.
Why not advocate for wholescale vigilante justice across the country against abortion doctors?
Click to expand...
Because vigilante justice is something condemned by the Church.
If that’s not OK, then this single act isn’t either.
Click to expand...
Quite correct.
I would hope that people would begin to recognize that the odds of getting Roe v. Wade overturned in this country in the next hundred years are approximately 0%, especially after an incident like this. If we understand this, I think those of us who are against abortion need to consider that the “battle” (there’s that rhetoric again!) against it needs to be fought in the consciences of individual women in this country who choose to get abortions. If every woman were convinced it was not an acceptable choice to make, there would be no abortions whether or not they were legal.
Click to expand...
That is a weak argument to keep abortion legal and give up on working for legal protection for all people living in this country.
Witness to your friends and neighbors, get people to learn and accept the fundamentals, and they will accept the pro-life position and there will be fewer abortions.
Click to expand...
You mean instruct and educate them using anti-abortion rhetoric?
 
Believe_God said:
I was re-reading this news article and some thoughts on this. Some think it was terrible, some may be happy he can no longer kill our innocent babies (which I am one), some probably don’t care either way.
Knowing that our God is a jealous God. He alone can remove a person from this earth at his choosing, or bless them with much spiritutal gain and help them reach others for His glory.
The last I knew there has been over 40 million babies killed by abortion. This could be higher. But with every life being precious to God our Father, and Tiller was obviously not under God’s protection since he was murdering his babies, perhaps God allowed this to happen to show the world how really tired he is of our lack of respect for human life.
This is a time for all Christians, Catholic, etc., anyone who has given their life to God, to understand that we must have broad shoulders for the attack that may come.
We are not followers of Jesus if we want and expect everything to go smoothly in our lives. That only means we are not striving to serve God. We are not growing in Him if we don’t find conflict in our lives and live through it in a Godly manner.
Prayers that God would bring a trun around in the thinking of society and give them eyes to see Him. Hearts to love Him. Knowledge to know Him. Strength to stand up to evil and be overcomers.
Praying for expectant mothers to find strength and courage to keep their unborn babies. Praying for them to be place where a Christian voice will help lead them in understanding God’s will for their lives and the lives of their babies.
Praying for doctors everywhere, who do abortions, to be awakened to the horrible truth of what they are doing.
Praying that ALL believers will raise up prayers daily to God to give us guidance in how he wants us to pray for the end of abortions. Praying for a united front of believers to stand firm in God and in seeking the protection of the rights of unborn babies to be carried to full term and given a chance to live and know their heavenly Father.
Praying this in Christ Jesus name.
Click to expand...
**By your own admission you are “happy” that Dr. George Tiller “can no longer kill our innocent babies”. Murder makes you happy. *The murder of another human being makes you happy. *** You have just forfeited your place among the pro-life people who are pro-EVERY-life. As far as I’m concerned, that also demotes you to a non-Catholic.

Welcome to hell.

Limerick
 
jpm1977 said:
Call abortionists and women who get abortions murderers,
Click to expand...
Nothing wrong with telling the truth. It is wrong to lie however. For instance, it is not morally permissible to say an abortionist is not a murderer.
impotently demand changes in the law affecting people who have no understanding of Catholicism,
Click to expand...
Murder is wrong whether one is Catholic or not. How many hardened criminals and serial killers can you think of that are Catholic? Wouldn’t it be silly of you to advocate their release from prison since they do not “believe”? 😉
 
limerick said:
**By your own admission you are “happy” that Dr. George Tiller “can no longer kill our innocent babies”. Murder makes you happy. *The murder of another human being makes you happy. *** You have just forfeited your place among the pro-life people who are pro-EVERY-life. As far as I’m concerned, that also demotes you to a non-Catholic.

Welcome to hell.

Limerick
Click to expand...
:whacky:
 
Kim Gandy, president of the National Organization for Women, said Tiller was aware of the dangers he faced, “yet he continued to protect his patients and provide safe and legal abortions to women in often-desperate circumstances.”

She and other activists urged that Monday be observed as a national day of mourning for Tiller, as well as a day of commitment to the cause of abortion rights.

kansas.com/457/story/833995.html

NATIIONAL DAY OF MOURNING!!!
 
estesbob said:
Kim Gandy, president of the National Organization for Women, said Tiller was aware of the dangers he faced, “yet he continued to protect his patients and provide safe and legal abortions to women in often-desperate circumstances.”

She and other activists urged that Monday be observed as a national day of mourning for Tiller, as well as a day of commitment to the cause of abortion rights.

kansas.com/457/story/833995.html

NATIIONAL DAY OF MOURNING!!!
Click to expand...
Perhaps we should declare it a national day of prayer and fasting for the end of abortion.
 
gertabelle said:
We must keep this man and his family in our prayers! May god have mercy on his soul, on and the soul of his murderer. And may we allow god to use this event to draw each of us nearer to his sacred heart.

Abortion is murder.

The killing of Dr. Tiller is murder.

I’ll say it again: Abortion is murder.
**
The killing of Dr. Tiller is murder.**

And just in case you missed it, I’ll say it one more time: abortion is murder.

In case you don’t want to see the parallel, the killing of Dr. Tiller is murder.

Speaking the truth in love does not cause people to murder.

Influencing a weak mind with the presumed righteousness of a singular rigid doctrine can easily lead one to carry out a violent act under the guise of righting a “wrong”.

Speaking your opinion, however, as you have done here, as if you and you alone have complete understanding of what caused this violence and how to stop it – well, that does nothing to bring about the change you wish to see in the world.

So just because your opinion differs from those of us who believe and follow church teaching, that hardly makes the rest of us somehow inferior to your own reasoning :rolleyes:

Abortion is murder.

Murder is murder, any way you cut it, whatever the instigating factor.

And as part of the practice of my faith, I will take political, personal, and prayerful actions to bring an end to these murders, your opinion notwithstanding.

What actions? What will they be? Please elaborate.

Gertie (the apparently grumpy graduate student)

Limerick - not grumpy, just dismayed
Click to expand...
 
40.png
limerick:
The killing of Dr. Tiller is murder.

I’ll say it again: Abortion is murder.

The killing of Dr. Tiller is murder.

And just in case you missed it, I’ll say it one more time: abortion is murder.

In case you don’t want to see the parallel, the killing of Dr. Tiller is murder.
Click to expand...
Congratulations. You figured it out.
Both abortion is murder and the killing of the abortion doctor was murder.
A winner. 😛
 
Dandelion_Wine said:
May God have mercy upon his soul.

I didn’t even know he went to church. I assumed he didn’t. How does one go to church after performing abortions?

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_tiller_shooting
Abortion doc George Tiller gunned down at church

WICHITA, Kan. – The attorney for George Tiller says the late-term abortion provider was shot and killed at his church in Wichita, Kan.
Attorney Dan Monnat says Tiller was shot as he served as an usher during Sunday morning services at Reformation Lutheran Church. Monnat said Tiller’s wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time of the shooting.
Click to expand...
The Lutheran Church excommunicated tiller as an unrepentant sinner, and he simply joined a liberal wing of Lutheranism that supports abortion.

Sorry, but I don’t feel bad about his death. This is a man who would kill viable children in the womb and then “baptize” their dead bodies before putting them into his incinerator.
 
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