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Explain
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
What makes things worse is that a Catholic & a Protestant have both tried to provide justifications for killing Dr. Tiller:
1. Here’s a weblog that discusses a Catholic attempt to justify that murder:
"In [a commentary today (http://www.firstthings.com/on_the_s...onth=6&title_link=defending-life-requires-law), First Things editor and Creighton theologian R.R. Reno parses the justifications for killing an abortion doctor like George Tiller, and finds that alleged murderer Scott Roeder came up short–though barely. Reno says that “The blanket condemnation [by Catholics bishops and others] of ‘violence’ seems unhelpfully expansive” and so he wants to explain that the reasons Tiller’s killer was wrong “are not as simple as they seem.”"
**Comment, as they say, is superfluous.
****The vigilantism that justifies killing doctors who provided abortions (a fully legal provision BTW, which has good moral reasons) cannot with any consistency show that killing bishops for their crimes is not equally allowed. It is not possible to justify killing Dr. Tiller, without (by that very justification) providing a justification for killing paedophile clergy. The law that allows would-be vigilantes to live, with equal insistence forbids providers of abortion to be killed - & this is what the advocates of & apologists for the killing of doctors who provide abortion seem not to understand. **
**Cast aside the law, & the last protection against the ethics of the jungle is removed (To paraphrase a point made in “A Man For All Seasons”). **
The article from First Things can be read here:
"M****y heart sank when I read the headline: “Abortion Provider Is Shot Dead.” It sank still further as I read the story."
A different POV can be found here:
"The pro-life community continues to reject any reason as legitimate for the slaying of late-term abortionist George Tiller on Sunday morning in Wichita, Kansas…"
The first weblog discusses a Protestant attempt to justify the murder:
2. Activist: Tiller killing "biblically justified"
"So says the publisher of Prayer and Action News, an anti-abortion newsletter and Web site that slay suspect Scott Roder liked. Dave Leach tells the Des Moines Register that Tiller’s murder could be biblically justified as a way to prevent what he sees as the murder of unborn babies.
…>
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
**A lot of things can be “Biblically justified” - slavery, killing witches, massacring the enemy, & the activities of a certain gay-bashing minister from Topeka, Kansas among them. Most hatreds can be given a “Biblical justification”. The Christian Reconstructionist movement is solidly Biblical - it should be, because its supporters want to make the Law of Moses the law of the USA: that is a “Biblical justification” with a vengeance. **
**None of these attempts to give a “Biblical justification” to killing a man in a church (as happened to Dr. Tiller) make his murder any less a crime & a sin & a betrayal of what Christian “pro-lifers” are supposed to stand for; if they think so little of churches as to commit murder in them, there is absolutely no reason why anyone else should take their claims seriously. This was an act of terrorism, as much as what was done on September 11 2001. Osama did at least not claim to be a Christian. A Christianity that cannot condemn this crime, is morally & spiritually bankrupt. It is something that some Christians have condemned this horrible crime. **
**None of these attempts to give a “Biblical justification” to killing a man in a church (as happened to Dr. Tiller) make his murder any less a crime & a sin & a betrayal of what Christian “pro-lifers” are supposed to stand for; if they think so little of churches as to commit murder in them, there is absolutely no reason why anyone else should take their claims seriously. This was an act of terrorism, as much as what was done on September 11 2001. Osama did at least not claim to be a Christian. A Christianity that cannot condemn this crime, is morally & spiritually bankrupt. It is something that some Christians have condemned this horrible crime. **
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Peter_J
Guest
Well that’s understandable: you thought reteeks21 was the OP, when in fact bareknuckler was the OP.No - I was referring to post 5. Sorry for the lack of clarity
Post #5:
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TracyJ
Guest
Since all of us sin and fall short of glory your post is the best reason anyone could
give to live our lives the way we want instead of the way we should.
Why bother with trying to be good if, even after we apologize we’re doomed to Hell.
Might as well enjoy ourselves because the afterlife is gonna be Hell!
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TracyJ
Guest
Maybe, due to invincible ignorance, he was saved.
No one knows.
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Hesychios
Guest
Very sad indeed.
It seems that Mr. Tiller was a victim of the nation’s post-term abortion industry. It’s a disgrace upon our modern society that he had no choice of his own in the matter.
Let us stand together and oppose all acts of pitiless violence.
Prayers for Mr. George Tiller, his family and his abortionist. May God have mercy on them all.
It seems that Mr. Tiller was a victim of the nation’s post-term abortion industry. It’s a disgrace upon our modern society that he had no choice of his own in the matter.
Let us stand together and oppose all acts of pitiless violence.
Prayers for Mr. George Tiller, his family and his abortionist. May God have mercy on them all.
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
I appreciate your concerns for my father, but he even said during the proceedings that I would wonder if I should pray for him (not the sort of thing you say to an atheist, but then he was looking into the future to some extent). He seemed to imply it would be a waste of time, but …
One thing he said for example was “You’ll meet a pastor. You’ll think he’s great, but all he’ll do is discourage you even more!” My father died in 1979. Around 1990 or 1991, not long before my first pastor died, the pastor said to me in his office, "I owe you an apology. You needed encouragement, but all I’ve done is discourage you even more!’ I then reminded him of what my father had said over a decade before, almost word for word.
He was there all right. And likewise I believe your story. There no doubt were spirits present. The difficulty, I find, is discerning which spirits.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Dear Bob,
Your story is very moving, I have to believe that your prayer for your father will be of value for him as I don’t see the soul bond for hell given the opportunity to to speak with you. I am reminded of the parable about the rich man and Lazarus. The Rich man was not given the chance to go and speak to his family. I know it was a parable but It tells me a couple of things, one of which is from hell you do not get to send message to the Living.
All that to say is I believe that at the very worst your father was in Purgatory and may even now be In heaven. I will say a prayer for that.
As for Tiller and his family I do believe that we all should pray for him and his family. If we want mercy we must be willing to show mercy.
God bless.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
I understand how you make these statements. But no one deserves to be shot down in cold blood. As Christians we are called to a higher standard. What the man did was wrong and can not be defended in any way. Remember that we shall be judged by the same standard by which we Judge. That is not saying that when you see sin not to take a stand against it.
We need to remember to show mercy to the sinner.
As long as he was alive there was a chance for him to mend his ways, To ask for God mercy. that opportunity was stolen from him in the same way he stole life from those precious babies. Another wrong and I have always been taught that two wrongs do not make a right.
I believe it was Pope John Paul II that said to hate the sin not the sinner. And Jesus showed us when the Adulteress was brought to him by the crowd he said to her go and sin no more. Should His pastor and those in his church put more pressure on him about his line of work? I do believe so. I find him no more a sinner though than those that vote for people who did not oppose abortion or those elected officials ( especially those that claim to be Catholic) that do nothing to stop It.
It is within the power of the nationally and state level electorate to put an end to this abomination, but the people of this country decide to look more at the letter behind the person name than at what that person really stands for.
Ok done with my rant
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
I see. So as long as I’m an usher at my church, contribute financially in a big way, and have people not admonishing me for slaying 60,000 babies, I’m not evil. Wow. That’s not lowering the bar or anything…It’s the parishoners’ and community’s faults?
This logic is absolutely mind-boggling. If you had stood by his side for 30+ years as he ripped those fetuses out of women 21-24 weeks old, murdering them before your very eyes, you’d have a different, less liberal view of evil.I could care less about what Tiller the Killer’s pastor did with Tiller’s money. Could care less. And I’m not going to probe who didn’t admonish and criticize him, counsel him, or try to change him. Tiller was a big boy who knew what he was doing. After the first 30,000 dead babies, I’m pretty sure he had a good idea of his role in the holocaust. And that’s what this man was, a participant in a holocaust. I could care less what Peter J thinks, slavery, holocaust, whatever. When the government turns a blind eye to mass murder and those murders enter into the millions, a systematic, tax-payer-funded murder with clinics and baby part/tissue sales in play, a cold-hearted loss of life on this scale…holocaust, period.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Well-stated. It was a truly sad day for the Devil. One of his agents has fallen. But hey, we shouldn’t be “judging” this guy, right? He only killed 60,000 babies…it’s amazing how so many folks in here rush to defend this guy and turn a blind eye to the wholesale slaughter of innocents. It’s that natural tendency to support the underdog or take the opposite, blame ourselves or feel uncomfortable facing evil. Some folks don’t want to accept that there’s evil out there…pie in the sky. This guy WAS evil.
Great post.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
What SpiritMeadow is saying is that murder is defined by the State, not one’s religious faith. Sad…and that we should not lament the deaths of these 60,000 babies because they aren’t human beings yet. They’re just a glob of flesh. From this point of view Tiller was a servant of the State just doing his job, not a killer, just a civil servant of sorts providing a “service.” The real bad guys are you and I for not crying ourselves to sleep over his murder. In this mindset it is never the killer, the abortionist, who is in the wrong, but us. Just like how the left always tries to paint America as the bad guy and the antagonist, the unenlightened, Spirit is applying that feel-sorry-for-the-killer instead of the victims mentality that is not uncommon and all-too prevalent in this thread sadly.
Your post is excellent. Good for you for standing up for the victims and not playing into this sympathyfest for a holocaust komandant.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
I really do not see that any one here has defended Tiller or what he has done. I for one do not. That said I do not find it comforting to know that he was stopped by an equally sinful act. Yes we should not be judging the deposition of his soul. We can make judgment on what he did for a living. I do not see anyone denying that there is real evil out there in the world, but I can not see that will be corrected by celebrating another evil act.
What has happened is that those who supported Tiller and those like him now have a martyr to rally around. Even though the man that killed him was not connected to any Pro Life group it has given all a black eye and reinforces statements like those made a few weeks ago that people who are right to life are right wing terrorist.
One man has been stopped, but really how far back has this pushed the right to life cause?
Let us remember Jesus saved the world by being killed not by killing.
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
At the time he appeared I don’t think he was in Hell or Purgatory, but was in that brief interlude before going to one or the other. It’s a pity I can’t reproduce the scream, but I don’t think it was Purgatory that was approaching. He was shaking from head to foot, absolutely petrified, and in terrible fear of something that he could see coming, but which I couldn’t.
My old Protestant pastor did say once, “I think they (Catholics) soft-pedal judgment.” I mean all these warnings about judgment aren’t there for nothing. My father had spent 20 years abusing his family, had long abandoned the church, had been abusive towards God, and I believe at one stage, when I was about 18, went to a witch to put a curse on me. How’s that for an example of fatherhood?
As one result I don’t have much of an opinion of God’s “Fatherhood”. My father was a bastard, and even my old pastor, whom I came to regard as a “spiritual father figure” was, by his own admission, discouraging. Put the two togehter and as far as I’m concerned, God’s fatherhood so far hasn’t added up to much. And I resent it. Strongly.
Yet it was Christ Himself who said that “Many” would find the easy path which leads to destruction, and “Few” who would travel the hard and narrow path. That says something in itself.
I mean where do you draw the line?
In the case of Tiller, I’d say he’s in Hell, and prayers for him are wasted. His family maybe, his patients and surviving staff certainly, and the aborted children definitely. That’s my opinion. As I say having seen the terrifying scream of my father at the end of our mutual recrimination episode the night he died, I tend to think Tiller is answering for all the killing he performed.
That does not excuse his murderer. But today’s society is more shocked by one man’s murder than by the hundreds, perhaps thousands, of murders he himself committed. They don’t even get a mention. As far as I’m concerned, Tiller is getting a lot of sympathy he doesn’t deserve.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Never the less I shall add you and your father to me prayers.
I agree that Tillers is receiving sympathy that he is not deserving of, But are not those the ones that we are called to pray for the most? I disagree with your former pastor I don’t believe that the church soft pedals the Judgment at all. I do see that the Church place a lot of importance on our looking for forgiveness and willingness to be merciful and forgive.
I do not know the story of how those 20 years with your father were, nor could I truly understand as I did not live them. I do know that from my own life and what I lived through as a child I have to forgive those that hurt me. I have to rely on the true Fatherhood of God and his mercy. I have to remember that as Christ hung dieing on the Cross he looked at those that had put him there and said " forgive them father for they know not what they do."
We must take a stand to stop those that do what Tiller did. We also must pray for there conversion.
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