Abortion due to gender.

[ryecroft]

That the unborn don’t have thoughts is a little bit more than my opinion. It’s my opinion to define personhood on the basis of the presence of a conscious mind, but scientists pretty extensively study the minds of infants as I’m sure you know given your background.

Even if you make an argument that at some later stages of pregnancies the fetus has human brainwaves. I just don’t see how you can make that argument for the first trimester.

Is there any scientific evidence that the fetus knows it exists?

Normally, I have to consider myself pro-choice as I have some very major problems accepting that if/when I get pregnant again, that I get into a situation again where if I don’t end my pregnancy I will die regardless of if the pregnancy is long enough to be viable (and I’ve been in that situation before) - that I’m supposed to choose to die - but that’s another topic. I will say - and I truly hope that what I saw was true- that when I saw something called the “silent scream”, I found it very interesting that the fetus was appeared to be trying to get away from something that was trying to harm it and out of what seemed to be fear, it’s heart beat spiked. Doesn’t this show (and I believe this was supposed to be at the end of the 1st trimester)-that if it was fear that there is some form of brain activity - while most animals I know of can experience fear, maybe this shows some form (and you that are biologists know better than I so I’m asking)- of higher brain activity and within the 1st trimester?
God Bless
Rye-

 

[flyingfish]

Normally, I have to consider myself pro-choice as I have some very major problems accepting that if/when I get pregnant again, that I get into a situation again where if I don’t end my pregnancy I will die regardless of if the pregnancy is long enough to be viable (and I’ve been in that situation before) - that I’m supposed to choose to die - but that’s another topic. I will say - and I truly hope that what I saw was true- that when I saw something called the “silent scream”, I found it very interesting that the fetus was appeared to be trying to get away from something that was trying to harm it and out of what seemed to be fear, it’s heart beat spiked. Doesn’t this show (and I believe this was supposed to be at the end of the 1st trimester)-that if it was fear that there is some form of brain activity - while most animals I know of can experience fear, maybe this shows some form (and you that are biologists know better than I so I’m asking)- of higher brain activity and within the 1st trimester?
God Bless
Rye-

Not necessarily, if you’re trying to kill a spider it also tries to run away from you. If you put a plant go a window, it will grow towards the sunlight. These kinds of responses don’t mean that the fetus is aware of its existence and is consciously trying to avoid something that it knows is trying to kill it.

 

[LittleSoldier]

The issue is not whether the person is created by God, because this is not a religious issue. It’s a social justice issue.

All social justice issues are religious issues because social justice is based on universal laws, which are God’s laws.

I’ve always discussed abortion in purely biological/psychological terms, but I feel this is not representing my position adequately. I want to be completely honest. I have noticed that in many threads the universal law (God’s law) of sanctity and protection of human beings is ignored, while man-made laws are held up as adequate representations of truth. And man-made laws can change (and often do change) while God’s law remains unchangeable, as it* is* truth.

I’ve also noticed a change in the pro-abortion movement - a change to accepting that which is murdered as a human being. I believe that all human beings are persons and I find it frustrating to deal with questions such as: “What is a person?”, “Don’t you know that not all human beings are persons?”, “How do you define ‘personhood’?”, etc. etc. ad nauseum…

Many, many pro-abortion activists are well aware that a human being is killed during an abortion. Here are some quotes which were posted on a previous thread in which I participated:

“Is birth control an abortion? Definitely not; an abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun.” Planned Parenthood pamphlet, (August, 1963)

“We – in the states – have dealt heavily, up to now, in euphemism. I think one of the reasons why the ‘good guys’ – the people in favor of abortion rights – lost a lot of ground is that we have been unwilling to talk to women about what it means to abort a baby. We don’t ever talk about babies, we don’t ever talk about what is being decided in abortion. We never talk about responsibility. The word ‘choice’ is the biggest euphemism. Some use the phrases ‘products of conception’ and ‘contents of the uterus,’ or exchange the word ‘pregnancy’ for the word ‘fetus.’ … It is morally and ethically wrong to do abortions without acknowledging what it means to do them. I performed abortions, I have had an abortion and I am in favor of women having abortions when we choose to do so. But we should never disregard the fact that being pregnant means there is a baby growing inside of a woman, a baby whose life is ended. We ought not to pretend this is not happening.” Judith Arcana, abortion activist, at a London seminar, October 1999

" I have the utmost respect for life; I appreciate that life starts early in the womb, but I also believe that I am ending it for good reasons." Anonymous Boston abortion doctor, “Confessions of an Abortion Doctor,” Cheryl Alkon, Boston Magazine, December 2004

“I do them [abortions] because I take the attitude that women are going to terminate babies and deserve the same kind of treatment as women who carry babies…I’ve done a couple thousand and it turned into a significant financial boon, but I also feel I’ve provided an important service. The only way I can do an abortion is to consider only the woman and block out the baby…”. Anonymous abortion doctor, M.D. Doctors Talk About Themselves by John Pekkanen (Delcorte Press: New York) 1988, p 90-91

“I do think abortion is murder—of a very special and necessary sort. What else would one call the deliberate stilling of a life? And no physician involved with the procedure ever kids himself about that…legalistic distinctions among ‘homicide,’ ‘justified homicide,’ ‘self-defense,’ and ‘murder’ appear to me a semantic game. What difference does it make what we call it? Those who do it and those who witness its doing know that abortion is the stilling of a life.” Magda Denes, abortion advocate, clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst, “Performing Abortions,” Commentary Magazine (October, 1976)

[Thank you, beafedor, for these quotes!]

Here is a link I posted in a prior thread:

priestsforlife.org/procho…esoursouls.htm.

This link no longer works, but it led to an article written by a pro-abortion activist who agreed with the people who are quoted above.

I’m sorry but I don’t know how to provide a link to another thread. These were taken from a thread entitled “Reconciling Pro-choice Catholics with Church Teaching” (or maybe it’s the other way around-sorry). The original quotes are in post #107; my response with my link is in post #109 (I used a different user name when I participated in that thread).

I agree with what you say about the lies. I’ve often wondered why some women become so angry when it is pointed out that human beings reproduce with the woman carrying the unborn child. That’s just the way it is - it’s always been that way. Personally, I feel very blessed to have had the opportunity to carry three children inside my womb. And my grief and mourning over the deaths of two of my children before birth were shared by my husband.

And that is why I have wondered why some women become so angry when men want to have a say in the abortion issue. I know many men who have gone through a serious mourning process when a child they love has died before birth. Men are fathers, brothers, uncles, grandfathers of aborted children. They grieve, they cry, they mourn. To assume (as some women do) that men cannot understand because they can’t carry a child in their wombs in a slap in the face to approximately 50 percent of the world’s population. Men carry unborn children in their hearts. Women are doubly blessed because we carry them in our wombs and in our hearts.

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Okay, but say Little Soldier’s mind never began. The body grew, but the mind never arose. Then I wouldn’t get to debate with Little Soldier, and I would say Little Soldier doesn’t exist.

But if my mother had had an abortion, something would have been aborted, right? The doctor would have burned me with saline, or ripped me apart, or waited until a few seconds before* I* would have been born and then stabbed *me *with a pair of scissor in the base of my neck and scrambled my brains. Brains. My brains.

All those bits and pieces, just like in those photos: arms, legs, fingers, I saw one photo where I tried to identify the body parts and I found the bottom half of a torso but just the dorsal side. That is what horrified me most. I understand why you find the photos of the murdered people in the German concentration camps horrifying. I do, too. It took me a long time to be able to just look at one of those photos, and I understand how you can identify with those people and feel empathy towards them.

My Mom and I love cats (well, actually my Mom has passed on but she loved cats while alive here on earth and probably still does). One day she brought home a little kitten. Some kids had stoned her, laughing like it was a huge joke, laughing when a rock hit her and she would jump and cry and try to get away. We put her in a box with a soft blanket and then she had some seizures and she died. I cried and cried not only because I loved cats but because human beings could be so cruel, even children. How could anyone find pleasure in killing a little kitten?

That’s why I am so shocked that people would applaud when a child is murdered via PBA. And when I see those photos of aborted babies and stare at them and really think about what went on before those photos were taken, I see that cruelty staring right back at me and laughing.

Right now I don’t know what else to say, except that I hope you can one day feel empathy for those who have been butchered by people who should be offering protection.

Ave Maria, ora pro nobis.

 

[flyingfish]

But if my mother had had an abortion, something would have been aborted, right? The doctor would have burned me with saline, or ripped me apart, or waited until a few seconds before* I* would have been born and then stabbed *me *with a pair of scissor in the base of my neck and scrambled my brains. Brains. My brains.

I think it just comes down to what we think of as us. I don’t identify with the fetus in my mother’s womb for example. I have no memories from that time. When I look at baby pictures of myself, I don’t identify with that baby. I don’t think it was me. It later grew into me, sure, but not at that time.

My Mom and I love cats (well, actually my Mom has passed on but she loved cats while alive here on earth and probably still does). One day she brought home a little kitten. Some kids had stoned her, laughing like it was a huge joke, laughing when a rock hit her and she would jump and cry and try to get away. We put her in a box with a soft blanket and then she had some seizures and she died. I cried and cried not only because I loved cats but because human beings could be so cruel, even children. How could anyone find pleasure in killing a little kitten?

I also think that is a horrible act of cruelty, and if a woman had an abortion just so that she could watch a video of it on the ultrasound and laugh I would be in shock and would worry that this woman was cut from the same cloth as serial killers.

I really don’t think that people have abortions for those reasons though. I would bet that most women who have late term abortions have them for very serious reasons. Teenagers and other young, poor women might have abortions because they cannot afford the baby and that 9 months of pregnancy would be too hard for them.

I doubt they are jumping for joy and feel excited to destroy a fetus…

 

[LittleSoldier]

I think it just comes down to what we think of as us. I don’t identify with the fetus in my mother’s womb for example. I have no memories from that time. When I look at baby pictures of myself, I don’t identify with that baby. I don’t think it was me. It later grew into me, sure, but not at that time.

I also think that is a horrible act of cruelty, and if a woman had an abortion just so that she could watch a video of it on the ultrasound and laugh I would be in shock and would worry that this woman was cut from the same cloth as serial killers.

I really don’t think that people have abortions for those reasons though. I would bet that most women who have late term abortions have them for very serious reasons. Teenagers and other young, poor women might have abortions because they cannot afford the baby and that 9 months of pregnancy would be too hard for them.

I doubt they are jumping for joy and feel excited to destroy a fetus…

So, how do you feel about those people applauding when the baby was killed via PBA? That just blew me away!

 

[flyingfish]

So, how do you feel about those people applauding when the baby was killed via PBA? That just blew me away!

Who was applauding? The medical staff? Is this something they generally do after a successful medical procedure?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Flying fish, you really, really don’t think that applauding after witnessing a partial birth abortion is appropriate at all? It does not come across to you as macabre?

My observation is that “pro-choice” mentalities are based on lies.

Before ultrasounds came about, the pro choice lie was that, “Oh, it’s a bunch of cells, it’s not a person.” You seem to be a younger person, so you might not have ever seen the program “Maude” that was on in the seventies. There is an episode where she becomes pregnant and has an abortion. Her daughter tells her, “It’s like going to the dentist.” Maude responds, “I hope not.”

What was the message? The lie that the “procedure” was harmless and not much different than going to the dentist.

Then ultrasounds came along. And proof that the small human being was not “a clump of cells” but a small human being.

Let’s learn something about pregnancy. Pregnancy is dated from the date of the last menstrual cycle, not from actual conception. I had a sonogram with my DD at 8 weeks, so she only existed from conception for circa 6 weeks. She had the shape of a small human with arm buds, leg buds and a beating heart. She only existed for a month and a half, and yet there was such differentiation of her body already. The sonogram technician titled the image, “tiny baby” and printed it and gave it to us.

So now we have “proof” that the small human inside the mother is a human, with the shape of a human. But the pro choice mentality ups the ante. “Sure it’s human, but it isn’t a person.”

Personhood, has been changed to include subjective criteria. Like you using self recognition as a criteria, or self awareness. It is subjective criteria. Not objective at all.

What I also notice in the abortion industry, that there is a lot of “subjective”. You keep bringing up the Polish lady who supposedly went blind because she couldn’t abort. I don’t believe the scenario because there are lots of illogical parts to the story.

Part of the story that is missing is that “pro-choice” lawyers frequently put in challanges to various country’s abortion laws, in order to change the laws through the courts. Poland has strict abortion laws. So what do they do? they get a woman, who might have wanted an abortion irrespective of her eyesight, and say well your medical necessity is your “eyesight” and show proof that the laws are incorrect because, “Look, this lady went blind because she couldn’t have an abortion.”

The thing that I don’t get is, how does pregnancy and abortion have anything to do with your eyes? I go to the eye doctor, I have been going for years. If there were a problem with my eyes during pregnancy, and my eye doctor said, “Abort” I would find another doctor.

If you look at the court case against the late George Tiller, Kansas has laws prohbiting 3rd trimester abortions unless it was to save the mother’s health. The case, “Doe vs Bolton” defined “health” with really subjective criteria. Economic reasons, mental reasons.

So Mr. Tiller would use the “mental health” criteria to get rid of 36 week babies often enough. My DD was born at 36 weeks but was not even considered premature, did not require a NICU at all.

I am not a psychologist, but I cannot see how having a 36 week baby killed because of mental health would actually cure the mental health. Why not counseling? why not medication? Why did those babies need to be dead, why couldn’t those babies be dropped off at a hospital under the Baby Moses laws.

I am also not a lawyer, but I do know that if after I gave birth to my DD and decided, “Gosh darn it, this motherhood deal is really depressing” and injected her with digoxin to stop her heart. I would get prosecuted for capital murder. That would be the reality.

So why wasn’t Dr. Tiller charged with capital murder? I guess it must be location, 36 in the womb not human, 36 out of the womb, human…then what about my son who was born 11 weeks early.

That seems awfully subjective.

There seems to be lot’s of lies going around…who was their father again?

 

[LittleSoldier]

Who was applauding? The medical staff? Is this something they generally do after a successful medical procedure?

I think Mary Gail has answered in a much better way than I could ever answer. I’m deferring to her on this - I agree 100 percent with what she posted.

Thanks, Mary Gail.

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I think Mary Gail has answered in a much better way than I could ever answer. I’m deferring to her on this - I agree 100 percent with what she posted.

Thanks, Mary Gail.

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.

Thank you, too, Little Soldier!

 

[Sierrah]

A forum that I visit posted a link to another forum where people want a specific gender. Maybe they desire a girl instead of a boy or a boy instead of a girl. That’s what the entire website is about.

So, I was curious and I went to that website. The first thread that really caught my attention is of a woman who has all boys, but is thinking of getting a cvs done with the next pregnancy (she is currently 37 weeks pregnant but plans another pregnancy) to see if the next one is a boy, if so, abort. I tried to reply but my reply wasn’t welcomed and I can’t post anymore there. I am a bit upset so I guess that’s why I am coming to you guys.

I don’t know if I am allowed to post a link to the thread and website, but if anyone wants it, pm me and I will send it to you. I don’t want anyone to think I am making this up. It’s just mind blowing.

I am going to copy and paste her post, and even so that this person obviously has some mental issues, some of the replies really made me shake my head in disgust.

---

Here is her post (By the way, GD stands for Gender Disappointment):

This post is on a highly sensitive subject please do not read if likely to upset .Contents on subject area which will probably upset many people…
Firstly I have no real excuse for my GD I dont dislike men or little boys I have a truly fantastic 2 year old boy I have a wonderful husband had a lovely Dad my brother is a intelligent and great man (well as good a little brother as you can expect really they are all pains) and my best friend as a child was a boy (shock horror boys are great fun!). But I want a DD so much it hurts I have great relationship with my mum and I so want that with my own daughter plus so many things I want to teach a DD and pass on to her. I also never expected to be able to have children due to having chemotherapy as a child but always thought if I could I would want a DD. But I am lucky in that I have been able to have children and also shockingly developed GD thus now a horrible person. I am struggling with what can only be described as extreem GD I am now 37 weeks with my second DS. I have got over my initial reaction to finding out it was a DS we were told girl at an early scan then boy at the next scan which has been very traumatic. I am now in a sort of excepting state of mind. Nobody knows the gender of this baby and I have been doing the fake smile as long as its healthy bit for months now (massive lie I WANT A GIRL and am deeply depressed about situation). Anyway the only thing that is keeping me going is the idea that I can have a girl next time but it must be a girl I can never ever go though this mental nightmare again. We can not afford high tech or to keep having children. So thinking (this is where it gets nasty and yes I am ashamed of myself) early CVS test for gender then only carry on with pregnancy if DD. OK very morally wrong but what I am asking is how early can this be done and has anyone on here done this. I sort of justify the idea as not being so different from selecting the gender in high tech. DH is 100% behind this idea having seen the cost of high tech and the state of my mental health since being told about DS2 Even the idea makes me feel sick but I see no other option now swaying has failed for me already although will do again as would rather not go down this route. Any advice welcome but no lectures on morals please as I am aware this is not acceptable to most people even myself a few years ago but things change and I dont have a massive house and spare funds that are needed for the more acceptable ways of getting a balanced family i.e keep trying or go OS for IVF PGD etc. Feel free to private message me if you would rather not post in public I hope this has not caused too much upset to anyone I am truly sorry if so just view it as the words of a mad women​

I don’t know what I am asking but I needed someone to vent to because it’s so disgusting, I am beside myself.

Heck if she doesn’t want her baby let her put it up for adoption. I’d be willing to adopt such a baby. As to weather or not i can have children is up to GOD but she is so blessed and is squandering it.

 

[crazzeto]

I think it just comes down to what we think of as us. I don’t identify with the fetus in my mother’s womb for example. I have no memories from that time. When I look at baby pictures of myself, I don’t identify with that baby. I don’t think it was me. It later grew into me, sure, but not at that time.

So in your opinion then, its “OK” to abort until such time that the “Fetus” is likely to start remembering what’s going on? Maybe up to 3 or 4 years of age? Is that what you’re saying?

 

[LittleSoldier]

Heck if she doesn’t want her baby let her put it up for adoption. I’d be willing to adopt such a baby. As to weather or not i can have children is up to GOD but she is so blessed and is squandering it.

Several times I’ve been asked by pro-abortion activists if I would accept one of these “unwanted” children. I don’t lie. Yes, I would and will accept any “unwanted” child that would otherwise be murdered. I can’t provide a household with a ton of money, but I remember reading (in a very old medical book) that a dresser drawer can serve as a crib (of course one doesn’t put the baby in the drawer and then close the drawer! ).

I lost two children before birth. I carried my third for eight months and I suppose I could have had him aborted and there were actually people who assumed that I would do so, as I had just become widowed. I lost custody of my son through an illegal adoption procedure. He had monetary value, just as I had monetary value when I was born (my Mom’s obstetrician offered to sell me because I was her third girl and the pregnancy had been unplanned). I am sure that money changed hands when I was fighting for custody of my son.

I would be honored to accept any child, not as a replacement for my “lost” children, but as a unique human being. I can offer a house full of love, animals, books, toys, good food, health care, and anything else a child needs.

I’ve never received a response when I said I will accept a child who is “unwanted.” My posts are ignored.

I am very happy that you, too, would accept and love an “unwanted” child. I’m sure there are many of us around.

Your post has given me a ray of hope. Thank you.

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I think it just comes down to what we think of as us. I don’t identify with the fetus in my mother’s womb for example. I have no memories from that time. When I look at baby pictures of myself, I don’t identify with that baby. I don’t think it was me. It later grew into me, sure, but not at that time.

I have retroactive amnesia. I can’t remember most of my childhood. I remember bits and pieces. I do have a memory from when I was three or four because I remember seeing my brother in his crib and he was born three years after I was born.

I have an old film that was copied onto VHS. It shows my older sisters and myself. I had very blond hair. My hair is now auburn, brown, blond, and some grey. My hair color got darker. I grew bigger. I developed. When I see the little girl (who was me) on that film I see a cute little girl becoming excited while seeing what her older sisters are doing and imitating them, continuing to imitate even when they’ve run off and are doing something completely different. The first time I saw this film I didn’t see “me;” I saw a little blond girl. But I’ve watched this film many times now and although I don’t have memories of being filmed or running around the tree, or copying my sisters, I know I did those things. The proof is there. It is me on that film. Who else could it be?

The point that I want to try to get across to you is the idea that not remembering something does not make what happened non-existent. I don’t remember that little girl, at least not consciously. But I know that little girl is as much “me” as I am “me” now. And that film shows definite self-awareness in myself at that age.

So, did I exist as a human being when I was that age? Of course I did. If I had to rely on memories to prove my existence I would be in a horrible mess because I don’t remember what I did a few days ago. It doesn’t mean that I didn’t exist as a human being a few days ago.

Every single human being started life as a fertilized ovum. Every single human being alive today went through the stages of unborn child, then born, and so on. You did, too. None of us sprung into being as a full grown adult. To deny the beginning and early development of ourselves; as “not being us,” doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t think there is one person on earth who remembers being a fetus, an infant, or a child who displayed self-awareness for the first time.

Do you agree that at one time you were a little child? Even if you can’t remember being a little child?

I also think that is a horrible act of cruelty, and if a woman had an abortion just so that she could watch a video of it on the ultrasound and laugh I would be in shock and would worry that this woman was cut from the same cloth as serial killers.

It was horrible. I don’t think I’ll ever forget it, even though I never want to remember. I agree with what you say about any woman who would laugh while seeing her abortion on ultrasound. But I wonder about what happened here:

I don’t have a link. The link I had does not work anymore. But it led to an editorial written by a pro-abortion activist. I apologize for not having a reference. But this is what I remember: the author of this editorial had a friend who became pregnant. It wasn’t planned. When she found out she was pregnant she decided to have an abortion. But this pregnant woman had a friend who could not have children and desperately wanted them. She asked the pregnant woman to please not have the abortion; to please have the child and allow her to raise the child. She begged the pregnant woman; she pleaded, she practically threw herself on the ground, crying, begging, “please don’t do this.” Remember, these two women were friends.

The pregnant woman had the abortion, breaking her friend’s heart and most likely ending the friendship, but I’m guessing at that. But something happened when the abortion was taking place. I don’t know how the baby was aborted; apparently it took some time to complete. When the now “no longer pregnant” woman began bleeding, she became very proud and felt as one with her “sisters.” To her, the blood was precious. It proved to her that she was a real woman and had control over her body. She enjoyed the bleeding that signified her child’s death.

As far as I know, she didn’t laugh or applaud, but she enjoyed the abortion. To me, this is barbaric. To find joy in another’s death (especially the death of one’s own child) demonstrates a complete lack of moral maturity. To her, being a “woman” meant that she could kill another human being that was (temporarily) inside her womb. This represents power. But the greatest power is that of protecting and nurturing the child inside the womb.

continued in next post

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.

 

[LittleSoldier]

continuation of post to FlyingFish

I really don’t think that people have abortions for those reasons though. I would bet that most women who have late term abortions have them for very serious reasons. Teenagers and other young, poor women might have abortions because they cannot afford the baby and that 9 months of pregnancy would be too hard for them. I doubt they are jumping for joy and feel excited to destroy a fetus…

Why is it OK to kill another because one is poor? There are organizations that provide financial assistance, free maternity and baby clothes, free food, help with shelter, free medical care for both mother and child, and so on. For a large part of that nine months there is no sign of pregnancy except for missed periods and I have yet to hear any woman say she enjoys her periods. When I was pregnant with my son, I was energized. I had more energy than I have ever had before or since. I exercised in the morning, worked full time, and then took long walks in the evening. I felt good.

Some women experience morning sickness and it may last all day long. But why is it OK to kill in order to stop morning sickness?

It is often true that a woman can’t afford to raise a child. But she can give the child up for adoption or leave her at a hospital or fire station and walk away without even giving her name. It’s perfectly legal to do this. I don’t understand why women drop their own live children into dumpsters, with garbage. And I don’t understand why women deliver their children into toilets and then leave them there to drown. This happened at Disneyland once and I sometimes think about the person (maybe a child?) who found the dead baby in the toilet.

Women carry the children. This is the way it is. Somebody has to do it, and those of us who have happily carried planned and unplanned children don’t even feel that we “have” to do it. It is an honor to have the ability to nurture a human being during pregnancy. Men have told me they are jealous of women because women have this ability.

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.

 

[LittleSoldier]

The pictures tell me that if I am making legal or moral decisions solely based on emotional reactions to pictures, I am not fitted to become a lawyer or an intellectual person.

Are you saying that those of us who react emotionally to those photos and use those emotional reactions to make moral decisions can’t be intellectuals? Don’t you think that’s a tad insulting to us? I don’t think you want to insult anyone, so I am confused by your statement.

Every human being should react emotionally to those photos and not in a positive way. The photos show the horror of what is going on right now and that horror needs to stop. Our man-made laws should be changed so that the unborn are given the same protection as the born and that’s because there is really no difference between them - all, born or unborn, are human beings.

It’s a real pity that we have the current laws we do regarding protection of the unborn.

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.

 

[flyingfish]

So Mr. Tiller would use the “mental health” criteria to get rid of 36 week babies often enough. My DD was born at 36 weeks but was not even considered premature, did not require a NICU at all.

I am not a psychologist, but I cannot see how having a 36 week baby killed because of mental health would actually cure the mental health. Why not counseling? why not medication? Why did those babies need to be dead, why couldn’t those babies be dropped off at a hospital under the Baby Moses laws.

I’m also not a mental health professional, but doesn’t carrying the pregnancy to term give you a risk of post partum depression, which for some may be as severe as post partum psychosis? Wouldn’t having an abortion avoid that?

Also about the medical team clapping after a partial birth abortion, I doubt they’re going “yay we just killed a fetus”, they’re probably thinking that they just saved a woman’s health or even life. I would imagine that women who have late term abortions simply because they don’t feel like having a baby are few and far between, as they would have had their abortions early on.

I have retroactive amnesia. I can’t remember most of my childhood. I remember bits and pieces. I do have a memory from when I was three or four because I remember seeing my brother in his crib and he was born three years after I was born.

Memory probably isn’t the best test for personhood, but maybe you averaged the memories of all people you’d get a good rough guideline of when people first remember their lives, and that may well be tied to self awareness. This is a question for neuroscientists.

Obviously if someone has amnesia it doesn’t mean they wren’t a person just because they can’t remember.

I have very few memories from a young age as well, my earliest are from about 2 years old.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I’m also not a mental health professional, but doesn’t carrying the pregnancy to term give you a risk of post partum depression, which for some may be as severe as post partum psychosis? Wouldn’t having an abortion avoid that?

Also about the medical team clapping after a partial birth abortion, I doubt they’re going “yay we just killed a fetus”, they’re probably thinking that they just saved a woman’s health or even life. I would imagine that women who have late term abortions simply because they don’t feel like having a baby are few and far between, as they would have had their abortions early on.

?

Memory probably isn’t the best test for personhood, but maybe you averaged the memories of all people you’d get a good rough guideline of when people first remember their lives, and that may well be tied to self awareness. This is a question for neuroscientists.

Obviously if someone has amnesia it doesn’t mean they wren’t a person just because they can’t remember.

I have very few memories from a young age as well, my earliest are from about 2 years old.

I have actually read about the clapping in a book by Bernard Goldberg. I think the title is 100 people who are ruining america. Not 100% sure of the title. The context that this clapping happened was that the abortion “doctor” who invented partial birth abortion was demonstrating his new “procedure” to other “doctors”

I’m not a psycholgist, but sure post partum depression exists. It is usually biochemical, can be treated through meds and/or counseling. Going 36 weeks (remember my DD was born at 36 weeks, not considered pre-mature) and then aborting, I would safely assume that any biochemical imbalance will happen anyway. The body goes through trauma as well, most likely the same as childbirth. The women goes through post partum lochia, bleeding post partum. And the women also needs to deal with the fact her child is dead because he was aborted. I don’t know, I can’t see how late term abortion makes anyone “happy” or at least “non depressed”

Also rememeber, my DS was already born for almost 7 weeks at that time. Pretend I developed post partum depression…would treating the depression involve injecting the baby with digoxin to stop it’s heart?

 

[flyingfish]

I have actually read about the clapping in a book by Bernard Goldberg. I think the title is 100 people who are ruining america. Not 100% sure of the title. The context that this clapping happened was that the abortion “doctor” who invented partial birth abortion was demonstrating his new “procedure” to other “doctors”

I’ve been trying to research the procedure to see when and why a doctor would want to use it, and finding that it’s very had to find scientific sources on it since Google is flooded with non medical activist sites.

I don’t know why this procedure was invented, what the alternatives are for late term abortions, what is best for the mother’s well being so I can’t really comment.

I would think it would be the medical professionals dealing with specific pregnant women that would be most qualified to decide which procedure would be in the woman’s best interest.

 

[Snugglebugmom]

I think what bothers me most about this whole thread is the fact that Flyingfish seems so completely detached and unemotional about something that most of us are very passionate about: children. Not just in reference to abortion, but in general. It comes across as deeply unsettling and somehow unnatural.
As for me, I used to be pro-choice. Not very staunchly, because something deep down in my heart always knew that it was morally wrong, but society has us so convinced that life is all about what WE want, what WE feel we need, and that WE are the center of the universe, that admitting that I didn’t believe this is a choice you are allowed to make, usually led to a lot of grief from people around me. How could I deny another person’s rights, in this case the right to choose? Of course that “other person” was always the mother, and never the unborn child, who apparently did not need to have the same courtesy extended to them.
My hesitantly pro-choice attitude lasted until I got pregnant and that changed EVERYTHING. You can argue the definition of personhood until the cows come home, it is all about semantics, and the fact of the matter is actually very simple: life begins at conception. Science agrees on this. Ending life is killing. God’s commandment is “thou shalt not kill”. Therefore abortion is wrong. It is really not that complicated.