Abortion due to gender.

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flyingfish said:
Didn’t Terry smile and react to others? Weren’t some arguing that those were signs of a mind? However people generally thought it was okay to cut life support because they believed the specialists when they said she didn’t have a conscious mind any longer.
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Terry Schiavo was not taken off life support. She was not on life support. She needed to eat with a tube. They stoppped feeding her, and it took 2 weeks for her to die.

The son I am holding was born at 29 weeks, and was on “life support” A ventilator, feeding tubes, an isolette. As his parents, we were not required to consent to these treatments. If we decided to “cut life support”, the hospital would have gotten a restraining order against us.
 
I don’t know what I’d classify it as, but it’s not a person. It doesn’t belong to the species of Homo sapien. It’s a machine. Plus, it doesn’t exist. Let’s keep the argument to things that do exist.

Flyingfish, you forget that we’re talking about our own species here.

That may be so. But you also said you’d want anyone who hurts them to get off on a theft charge. They are people. They have rights. Including the right to full justice under the law. Something you seem to have difficulty grasping.
 
sanctamaria17 said:
I don’t know what I’d classify it as, but it’s not a person. It doesn’t belong to the species of Homo sapien. It’s a machine. Plus, it doesn’t exist. Let’s keep the argument to things that do exist.

Flyingfish, you forget that we’re talking about our own species here.

That may be so. But you also said you’d want anyone who hurts them to get off on a theft charge. They are people. They have rights. Including the right to full justice under the law. Something you seem to have difficulty grasping.
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I didn’t say “get off on a theft charge”, the sentence could well be very severe. Madoff was sentenced to some 150 years in prison because he stole people’s life savings despite not having murdered anyone.

As I said many times in the other thread, making a baby requires a lot of effort, some people for years go to fertility specialists just to have that baby. I think it’s a very grave offense to kill it, and it would merit a very long sentence. I just don’t think murder is the appropriate term for killing something that doesn’t have consciousness.

As for the machine, I was just curious if you would be able to turn it off and stop the consciousness. I wouldn’t, it would be as much a person as you or I.
 
flyingfish said:
Didn’t Terry smile and react to others? Weren’t some arguing that those were signs of a mind?
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And the ones that were arguing wanted her to live. They were not the ones that wanted to pull the plug.
flyingfish said:
However people generally thought it was okay to cut life support because they believed the specialists when they said she didn’t have a conscious mind any longer.
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And those were the people who believed the specialists were right in their diagnosis that she was in a vegetative state.

This is totally different than saying killing a 1 year old is not murder. A baby is not a vegetable and not on life support and certainly not unconscious.

Anyone who thought Terry had a mind did not believe Terry was a vegetable and wanted her to continue to be on life support.

Anyone who thought Terry didn’t have a mind believed Terry was a vegetable and off of life support to pass.

Sorry to say this fishy, but even if you are a troll, you are really mentally disturbed person. I mean, they say you can’t reason with crazy, and it’s obvious you are crazy since there is no reasoning with you. It’s okay and all since I had nothing else better to do so you aren’t wasting my time. I just hope to god you never have children. Even if you are playing a joke. You just are not mentally stable.

Trying to say Terry’s case has anthing to do with saying killing a 1 year old is not murder has no logic whatsoever. It’s like going to burger king trying to buy a bmw. Doesn’t make sense. It probably makes sense to you though.
 
flyingfish said:
I think killing conscious beings (human or not) is murder. If a baby is conscious, then I think killing it is murder. The reason I said what I did, is that from what I read newborns aren’t conscious (they don’t even recognize themselves in mirrors as far as I know).
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How do YOU define conscious? Is it the ability to recognize oneself in a mirror? If you have an accident tomorrow and lose sight, are you then no longer conscious?

How about when you go to sleep tonight - is it okay if I kill you then - I mean, hey, you are not conscious?
 
flyingfish said:
I just don’t think murder is the appropriate term for killing something that doesn’t have consciousness.
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So, let’s say you get knocked out unconscious, it would be okay for someone to shoot you in the head correct? Since you don’t have a conscious at that time.
 
sanctareparata said:
That was merely opinion, never doctrine or teaching of the Church. The opinion was held because no one then knew anything about the science of pregnancy and the development of the preborn. All they knew is what they felt when the baby began to move -thinking that somehow only then, the baby became alive.

With all due respect, flyingfish, when you hold the belief that every time you go to sleep you die, and wake up as a new person, as you seem to think, it’s really no surprise that you can’t really understand all this. I can’t even begin to grasp your thought process, and frankly, I don’t want to.
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kage_ar said:
How do YOU define conscious? Is it the ability to recognize oneself in a mirror? If you have an accident tomorrow and lose sight, are you then no longer conscious?

How about when you go to sleep tonight - is it okay if I kill you then - I mean, hey, you are not conscious?
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She seems to have answered that already.
 
magic_stick said:
So, let’s say you get knocked out unconscious, it would be okay for someone to shoot you in the head correct? Since you don’t have a conscious at that time.
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I already answered this type of question, and if you really want to know go ahead and read my previous responses. I am not going to repeat myself, especially seeing how you’ve seen it fit to insult me in every post you made.
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
Ohh, chimps, dolphins, machine = person

My human son, not a person. :confused:
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If your son has consciousness, he’s a person. I said, the numbers I used were subject to change because I am not an expert on the development of the human mind.
 
flyingfish said:
I am not going to repeat myself, especially seeing how you’ve seen it fit to insult me in every post you made.
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Well, I didn’t mean to insult you, but sometimes the truth can be hurtful.
flyingfish said:
If your son has consciousness, he’s a person. .
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A baby has consciousness, a baby is not unconscious therefore, a baby is a person. Even the law reconizes this. Do you still think killing a 1 year old is not murder?
 
flyingfish said:
I already answered this type of question, and if you really want to know go ahead and read my previous responses. I am not going to repeat myself, especially seeing how you’ve seen it fit to insult me in every post you made.
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She wasn’t insulting you, she was telling you the truth. You do have mental issues. A normal person with normal mental health doesn’t go around telling people that killing a one year old is not murder.

Killing a one year old is murder. Killing a one minute old is murder. Every judge and jury would convict a person killing a baby.
 
magic_stick said:
A baby has consciousness, a baby is not unconscious therefore, a baby is a person. Even the law reconizes this. Do you still think killing a 1 year old is not murder?
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If there is scientific evidence that a 1 year old has consciousness/self awareness, then I’ll change my position about whether killing it is murder.
 
flyingfish said:
If your son has consciousness, he’s a person. I said, the numbers I used were subject to change because I am not an expert on the development of the human mind.
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See, this is where things get tricky. First you say a two year old is not a person because he isn’t conscious, or conscious “enough”.

Then you say it’s okay for my 10 month old to be classified as a person because he gets embarrassed.

Now you say MaryGail’s son (who is developmentally what, MaryGail? 8 months?) can be a person too.

But wait! This scientific research says that the newborn infant *does *have consciousness and self-awareness, albeit minimal.

So who’s to say how much consciousness a person has to have in order to really BE a person? According to this same research, consciousness develops, matures and is completed in adulthood. It’s ongoing. So if “full” consciousness is the only qualifier of personhood, then even teenagers aren’t persons. But if *any *consciousness qualifies one for personhood, then yes, the newborn infant is a person.

But wait again! This same research also shows that the PREBORN has moments of consciousness. Though the child is *mostly *in a state of unconsciousness, due to several very interesting factors (one being low oxygen saturation which keeps the child more asleep than awake), there are still moments when consciousness does occur. So the fetus must flip back and forth between personhood and non-personhood, right?

Can you see how arbitrary this all is? WHO draws the line? WHO establishes the truth?
 
sanctareparata said:
But wait again! This same research also shows that the PREBORN has moments of consciousness. Though the child is *mostly *in a state of unconsciousness, due to several very interesting factors (one being low oxygen saturation which keeps the child more asleep than awake), there are still moments when consciousness does occur. So the fetus must flip back and forth between personhood and non-personhood, right?
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Not to mention that babies also maintain their own sleep/wake cycles in the womb. Even though this is autonomically controlled, who’s to say that they’re not conscious?

Adults are not normally conscious of autonomically-controlled bodily functions such as breathing, body temperature regulation and blinking. Does this “unconsciousness” make us non-people?
 
RobnBobA1 said:
Well again thank you. Here I have experienced hatred for my religious views (or rather lack of) and also my prochoice views, although I try not to push them onto anyone, When the topic of abortion comes up I try to remain as objective as possible just giving facts and both sides, but oft times that is not welcome.
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I went to hear Robert George of Princeton University speak about pro-life philosophy. One of the things that impressed me about him and his reasoning was this statement:
"The life issues argument is not a discussion between good and bad people. It is a discusson between good people with different views.

If I could just be one of the good people.
 
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