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crazzeto
Guest
I can’t even believe people think this way, what website is this if you don’t mind posting it? This is just so shocking to me 
- Status
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RobnBobA1
Guest
By our medical definitions of a whole living human being, an embryo would not be considered alive. Regardless of whether one wants to admit it we do not consider tumors living human beings, parasitic twins living human beings, corpse’s living human beings or any number of conditions in which brain function is not present. Think of the siamese twins that share only one body but have two heads. We consider them two different persons sharing a body for the specifc reason that there are two separately working and functioning brains, while a person that has a parasitic twin ( basically a growth with organs and body parts from their twin that attached to their body inutero but never developed a brain) only one person since their twin has no working brain.
While a fetus may develop a working brain at some point in gestation at the point in which most abortions are performed it does not have a working brain, therefor cannot be classified as a living human being by all of our standards. It has more potential to gain that working brain than other conditions but that is not actual and we only classfy things by their actual characteristics.
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kage_ar
Guest
You may want to do some research.
Brain waves are detectable 6 weeks after conception. At 6 weeks, many women are just taking a pregnancy test (they are 4 weeks late).
MOST abortions are performed after the 6th week.
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Persuader
Guest
Well, there is a huge difference between a newborn and an embryo. As the paper says: “the newborn infant can be awake, exhibit sensory awareness, and process memorized mental representations. It is also able to differentiate between self and non-self touch, express emotions, and show signs of shared feelings.”
It is true that a mirror-test is generally seen as the definitive test for self-awareness, but there is allegedly lower levels of self-awareness before this. Regardless, I am sure you appreciate that a human being is in different states with different potential for experience during their lifetime. So, many humans pass the mirror test when they are 18 months old. Prior to this, I am assuming you would not view them as persons. But would you say they have no independent value? Do they only have sentimental value, or value through proxy, to the interested parties (parents, siblings etc.)? It seems to me like there should be some actual difference in value between an embryo and a 17 month old baby.
But avoiding pregnancy is not the reason for why you don’t want a male child (since you would welcome this experience given a female), so that isn’t the possibly frivolous reason I’m referring to. I assume you have been interacting with male children. Do you have a strong dislike of them, or are you just uninterested? What I am suggesting is that maybe you will not actually dislike or be uninterested after the fact (when the baby is born or sometime during pregnancy). I am no expert, but there is a lot of factors that will compel you to care about the baby.
You think what you believe sounds really bad? Well, having preferences is common, but you do have a very strong preference. Intent is not as bad as consequences IMO. So, if you do get pregnant with a boy, you should be able to know the sex by 14-15 weeks (depends on equipment etc.). If you take an abortion ASAP… well, it is very unlikely that the fetus will perceive any pain at this point (scientific consensus), and it is within the legal timeframe in your country, right?
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Joseph_L_Varga
Guest
It is irrelevant whether the embyro has a beating heart yet, or measurable brain waves, or whether it feels pain or not. Such things cannot be used to justify abortion, because our moral laws are based on God’s revelation. And God’s revealed commandment, which forbids murder, was not made dependent on such things as the presence of brain waves, the feeling of pain, etc.
If we reject to base our moral law on God’s revelation, we will end up with nothing but a house built on shifting sands. Moral relativism and an utilitarian approach - that’s all that remains for the atheist. If the fetus feels pain - give a good dose of anesthetic to the fetus before killing him/her. And if you are fed up with your teenage child, give him his favorite ice cream, with a good dose of morphine or barbiturate in it. That should quickly put him asleep, and he will die smoothly, painlessly. Hey, why would you put up with annoying children who cannot take care of themselves? Get rid of them! This is your life, your choice! I mean, you are only pro-choice, and you only CHOOSE to kill your teenagers who can’t stop annoying you!
Just kidding 
If we reject to base our moral law on God’s revelation, we will end up with nothing but a house built on shifting sands. Moral relativism and an utilitarian approach - that’s all that remains for the atheist. If the fetus feels pain - give a good dose of anesthetic to the fetus before killing him/her. And if you are fed up with your teenage child, give him his favorite ice cream, with a good dose of morphine or barbiturate in it. That should quickly put him asleep, and he will die smoothly, painlessly. Hey, why would you put up with annoying children who cannot take care of themselves? Get rid of them! This is your life, your choice! I mean, you are only pro-choice, and you only CHOOSE to kill your teenagers who can’t stop annoying you!
Just kidding Mary_Gail_36
New member
Can anyone imagine a man posting that he could never love a little girl child. That if in the future, his wife was carrying a baby, he would “encourage” her to abort and start over.
I am assuming that most people (but nothing shocks me) would encourage the woman to run from such a man.
Yet a woman wants to never carry a male…and the future father can just shrug and say, “OK dear”
Persuader…
How about giving the advice, “If you get pregnant with a boy, and you feel the need to cause harm or death to that baby, because of your own insecurities, get some mental help from a good psychiatrist”
Just seems incredibly unfair to the poor innocent baby because mom has issues.
I am assuming that most people (but nothing shocks me) would encourage the woman to run from such a man.
Yet a woman wants to never carry a male…and the future father can just shrug and say, “OK dear”
Persuader…
My last pregnancy was very difficult. I was having complications at around that mark. I had a sonogram, and the baby’s face was clearly visible. He looked to be smiling…and it’s the same smile he has now.
How about giving the advice, “If you get pregnant with a boy, and you feel the need to cause harm or death to that baby, because of your own insecurities, get some mental help from a good psychiatrist”
Just seems incredibly unfair to the poor innocent baby because mom has issues.
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sanctamaria17
Guest
Exactly, Mary Gail. I’m often reminded of what happens in China, Afghanistan, and other places, because girls aren’t valued. It’s just as bad for boys to be devalued.
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Montalo
Guest
flyingfih
If you are so dead set against having a baby boy, then why do you not just give it up for adoption?
If you are so dead set against having a baby boy, then why do you not just give it up for adoption?
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flyingfish
Guest
I would say everything in the universe has independent value, whether living or not. I guess the question is how much. I definitely would agree that a 17 month old baby is more valuable than an embryo. I guess the question would be how much.
I would also say again that I don’t think killing 17 months old is okay simply because they likely aren’t self aware, I just said it shouldn’t be called murder.
After thinking about it more, I would say that even if both parents consent to killing their newborn they should still be guilty of a crime, albeit not murder. Barring some extreme circumstances, it’s hard to conceive of a situation where there could be a justifiable reason to kill a pre-self aware baby.
Abortion is quite a bit different, because one could conceive of plenty of justifiable reason why the woman would choose not to continue the pregnancy. The very strain of pregnancy itself would seem to me to be sufficient.
I just can’t justify putting the interests of something that doesn’t know it exists above those of the woman. For that matter, it would not make a whole lot of sense to me to require someone to allow another life form to use their body to grow. The fetus wouldn’t have rights to the mother’s body, so the mother would be able to withdraw it at any time.
It’s not so much that I dislike male babies, it’s more that I have no interest in raising them. I wouldn’t want to spend any of my time on a male child. But you’re right, were I to have one instinct might well end up taking over and I would become interested. Who am I to stand against billions of years of evolution?
I’m Canadian, and as far as I know there are absolutely no legal restrictions on abortions here.
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flyingfish
Guest
That would require going through 9 months of pregnancy, possible risks of pregnancy like post partum depression (which I have an increased risk for), and the very discomfort of especially the latter months of pregnancy.
I would not be willing to make such a big sacrifice to provide a strange family with a child. Maybe if they were willing to pay me a lot of money, but not otherwise.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
I’m sorry, I don’t mean to offend…but I find it troubling that you think the sacrifice would be made for strangers. You mention nothing of giving your baby boy life…sacrificing yourself for the sake of of *your own offspring. *
The hypothetical baby boy you keep mentioning would be your offspring, your baby boy…and you already know that you would hate him enough to abort him.
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flyingfish
Guest
I wouldn’t hate him, I just don’t consider fetuses people, so I wouldn’t think of him as my son.I’m sorry, I don’t mean to offend…but I find it troubling that you think the sacrifice would be made for strangers. You mention nothing of giving your baby boy life…sacrificing yourself for the sake of of *your own offspring. *
The hypothetical baby boy you keep mentioning would be your offspring, your baby boy…and you already know that you would hate him enough to abort him.
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kimmielittle
Guest
So…If i believed atheists were living in a vacuum - absence of faith - spiritual unconsciousness ] …it’s alright to abort them
Mary_Gail_36
New member
Wow…so you would go through 15-16-17 weeks of pregnancy, and not feel anything for your unborn offspring, it’s little kicks, the first time you hear it’s heartbeat.
And when you go in for the sonogram to see if it’s a boy or a girl, and you see the little face and legs, and feet, you would not feel anything for your own child? And after they tell you it’s a boy, you already know that his life means nothing to you, after 15, 16, 17 weeks. You can really say that?
One of the most heartbreaking things I’ve ever witnessed was a classmate of mine. She had had an abortion. A few months or weeks after the procedure, she had her head down on the desk, and she was shaking. I first thought that she was laughing…but she was crying… she sounded as if she were in pain. Then I heard her say, “He had arms, he had legs.” Over and over and over again. She was refering to her aborted child.
I guess 23-24 years have past since then, and I still remember it.And you are not even pregnant, or married or in a relationship. But you have already made your “choice.”
I hope the Lord softens your heart.
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flyingfish
Guest
I don’t know, maybe if I had children I would think differently. I’ve never been pregnant, I’ve never known anyone who was pregnant. There are only 2 children in my family, and while I am the eldest, I was very young when my mother was pregnant and so I don’t remember it.
But I never said I wouldn’t feel anything, of course I would feel something and I would be excited to watch it grow if it was wanted. But I still wouldn’t think it’s a person, I wouldn’t think that it knows it exists or that it has thoughts. I would view it as something that’s growing into a future child I would have.
Not everyone reacts this way though.She was refering to her aborted child.
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shannyk
Guest
I feel like I’m in the twilight zone reading this thread. I don’t think I’ve ever read anything more depressing.
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Persuader
Guest
I understand, but it seems like you are confusing the right to an abortion with the issue of sex selection. I agree that the woman’s interest generally trumps the interest of the fetus, and you have a right to an abortion regardless of your reasons. What is being questioned (by me) is whether or not sex selection is a good reason, not your right to an abortion.
If you don’t mind me asking, do you have any idea why you have no interest? Is it just that when you think about it, the thoughts are that it would be uninteresting or boring compared to when you think about raising a female?
It isn’t like you are pregnant or have plans to get pregnant, right? Seems to me like you have some time to figure it out before it comes to it.
Mary Gail 36:
I would think she would try to figure this out before planning pregnancy, so I didn’t bother saying the obvious. However, I do agree that she should try to change her perception of what it would be like to raise a boy (if for no other reason than the fact that it would be difficult to find a partner who would accept sex selection in this way.).
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flyingfish
Guest
I don’t know if I will ever have a child, I am still on the fence about it.
I don’t know why I have no interest, maybe because I’m female and so I don’t see myself relating to a male child. The most appealing part of having a child, is being able to provide that child with all the things I wish I had in my own childhood. But I don’t feel that way about boys, only girls presumably because I am a girl.
I don’t have anything against men, most of my friends are male and I am in a field that is predominantly male. I enjoy male company far more than female company, but for some reason it doesn’t extend to children.
Would you say you have no preference, or would you prefer a male child? It seems to me that most men prefer male children. At the same time, some men are ambivalent about having children and leave it up to their wives.
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RobnBobA1
Guest
Neurons firing does not mean that brain function is present. Brain funtion includes the ability of the brain to send messages not only to the rest of the brain but to the body. that is not present until roughly the 20th to 22nd week when the cerebral cortex forms, indeed we can see this when the neuron tube does not close properly in the early gestastion where anencephaly develops most often, and that is a condition in which the brain does not form. In less severe cases only a brain stem will form or the brain will form outside the body (thus damaged to the point of not working by the embryonic fluid). Very rare cases do parts of the brain form where the fetus develops to the point of haiving limited brain function that can control the body for limited periods of time, but the fact is they have some brain function and those components are there to make brain function possible. I can take a single neuron out of the brain and can get it do “fire off” thus detecting “brain function” Cellular life also includes life in neurons, and that can be detected when those cells work properly (thus firing off electric signals). This does not porve organism life. An organism is a life as a whole singular being, not the collection of living cells, which corpses have.
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RobnBobA1
Guest
My mother thought this way as well, especially when she was trying to get pregnant with my oldest sister. To be honest I still believe that she thinks this way (at least for her personal life) about never really believing that she would know what to do with a son. Of course, by the time I came around, she already had her two girls and so the sex never really made a difference to her, since she had her girls to play with and identify with. And then she got another girl, which disappointed my father (not that he never loved or never wanted his daughters, just that he was hoping for a son at some point - he was an amazing father and still is) But the fact that my mother stopped having children after me, and my father still never got his desired dream to have another child or more specifically a son, tore on their relationship.
I also kinda think this way in my life, not to the point of abortion or not loving my male children, but for me, when I look in the future and think of those children I may have, I can never picture a son at young ages…I can only really image what they will be like when they come home from college, or tell me about their new job, or when they find a pretty girl they want to marry. I always view future sons as adults already, but future daughters I always picture during their childhood. This is mainly because I was never around young boys (kids in classrooms do not count) and only really had experience with them as already adults, but with females I had two older sisters and a host of female cousins (females outrun this family
) Since my nephew was born however this is starting to change, although I now can only see a future son of mine up to the age of two. I think that this way of thinking ha to do with our experiences around male and female children and our interactions seeing them in real life. Since you have no experience really seeing boys growing up (I am assuming here correct if wrong) you may not be able to think that you can have an interest in their upbringing. Or it could be the opposite - such as my mother. She never had any experience with female children having 4 rough and roudy brothers in an era where females were not so encouraged to go out and play sports or get a career in anything really other than female jobs (teaching, nursing, receptionist etc) so she really wanted a girl. I don’t know. All I know is that your experiences shape how we think constantly and you are liable to change your way of thinking.- Status