Abortion: extreme cases (life and health of the mother)

[michaeldaniels]

Abortion is NEVER permissable, under any circumstances. PERIOD

I ask you to assume that the scenarios are true, please don’t make arguments about how such a scenario is unlikely, or how most abortions are not performed for this reason.

I am asking you to assume they are true for the purpose of this poll.

Here are the 2 scenarios:

Scenario 1. A woman wants to have a child, she gets pregnant. Later on she develops severe complications (maybe a heart condition is discovered), and she is told that if she continues with the pregnancy she will likely die. Having an abortion is the only way to save her life.

Scenario 2. A woman wants to have a child, gets pregnant. Later she develops severe complications and is told that if she continues with the pregnancy she will suffer serious health consequences (like the Polish woman who lost her eyesight), but will remain alive. Having an abortion is the only way to prevent this.

Do you personally think that it would be moral for her to have the abortion (I’m asking what you think, not what the Church teaches).

 

[ac_claire]

Kadersnana, beautiful story about your daughter and grandson. I’ve heard of similar stories and there are two in my family alone…both situations where two different family members of mine were sternly warned by doctors that they could/would die if they didn’t abort their pregnancies. Both of them ended up carrying perfectly healthy little babies to term and they didn’t die!

The fact that almost everyone has heard a story similar to this in their family or community shows that this scenario (of a doctor warning a mother-- erroneously-- that she must choose between her own life or her child’s, etc.) happens with some frequency.

 

[surritter]

I think risking your life and giving your life are different things. More people would be willing to take lower risks than higher risks, I would be surprised if every parent out there would die for their baby. Especialy parents who have other living children to take care of. I would think that most parents with other children would rather let the baby die than leave the rest of their children on their own.

I actually read quite a few accounts of very poor women in South America who end up leaving their born children to die when they see that there will not be enough food for everyone. They will cut their losses and only save some.

“…risking your life and giving your life are different things.”
Then are you saying that the hypothetical cases in the poll involve risk to life or giving of life?

 

[flyingfish]

“…risking your life and giving your life are different things.”
Then are you saying that the hypothetical cases in the poll involve risk to life or giving of life?

No, I chose the most extreme cases to make people think about what they believe. I don’t think the comparsion of risking like is an accurate comparsion to those cases, they should use the example of a mother giving her life for the baby, not risking it. I question whether women would give their lives for their babies, my guess is if they had other children, they would choose to live themselves but then again who knows.

 

[kage_ar]

No, I chose the most extreme cases to make people think about what they believe. I don’t think the comparsion of risking like is an accurate comparsion to those cases, they should use the example of a mother giving her life for the baby, not risking it. I question whether women would give their lives for their babies, my guess is if they had other children, they would choose to live themselves but then again who knows.

I have never met a mother who would not die for her child, for any one of her kids - if she has 1 or 20.

 

[flyingfish]

I have never met a mother who would not die for her child, for any one of her kids - if she has 1 or 20.

I don’t know, people might say they would, but to waht extent is it borne out by their behaviors? For example in the poor areas of the world there is a serious issues with parents selling their children into slavery to get money. They don’t do this because they are evil, tehy do it because they are in desperate situations. Maybe when people are comfortable they say they will do the heroic thing, but when push comes to shove they don’t.

 

[vera_dicere]

I don’t know, people might say they would, but to waht extent is it borne out by their behaviors? For example in the poor areas of the world there is a serious issues with parents selling their children into slavery to get money. They don’t do this because they are evil, tehy do it because they are in desperate situations. Maybe when people are comfortable they say they will do the heroic thing, but when push comes to shove they don’t.

You make it sound like these parents are majorly conflicted.

There are parts of the world where life doesn’t mean squat. Look at China and India, where female foeticide is rampent, where girl babies are left to die or killed so they can try and achieve a boy who isn’t even conceived yet! They are killing one child in the hope of another! Life in these parts of the world means very little to most, so its not like those people who sell their children into slavery or whore houses are thinking “I love my children so much” they view their child as a means to finanical gain. In much the same way a traditional Chinese family views a boy child as their retirement security.

People are just commodities to some cultures. We should do our best to see that it doesn’t happen here, though with abortion, euthanasia and the death pentalty it’s already started.

 

[kage_ar]

I don’t know, people might say they would, but to waht extent is it borne out by their behaviors? For example in the poor areas of the world there is a serious issues with parents selling their children into slavery to get money. They don’t do this because they are evil, tehy do it because they are in desperate situations. Maybe when people are comfortable they say they will do the heroic thing, but when push comes to shove they don’t.

And there are people who drive their kids into a lake to kill them over a boyfriend. Because some people do evil does not mean that MOST parents love and would die for their kids.

 

[Rence]

No, I chose the most extreme cases to make people think about what they believe. I don’t think the comparsion of risking like is an accurate comparsion to those cases, they should use the example of a mother giving her life for the baby, not risking it. I question whether women would give their lives for their babies, my guess is if they had other children, they would choose to live themselves but then again who knows.

But the thing is, you didn’t choose the most extreme cases. Both of those have sound medical treatments that neither risk the life of the mother, nor warrant an abortion.

I can think of a better example for you that involves more risk and is more extreme, and again, there STILL is no reason (other than the wish to terminate pregnancy) for an abortion. For example, if a woman has come to learn, after she has become pregnant, that she has a cancerous or diseased uterus. In this example, it is permissable under the teachings of the Church for her to have her uterus removed - even while pregnant. OR, she can risk waiting until the baby is viable (which, in the grand scheme of things, isn’t really that much of a risk to her), and then have an early cesaerean and afterwards undergo treatment for her cancerous or diseased uterus - whatever that treatment is. She can also, under the rules of the Church, undergo treatment for her cancer while pregnant. That is a risk to both her and her baby, but is permissible because she is not directly killing the baby.

Some women will opt to have the uterus removed. Some women will opt to have the treatments while pregnant if her doctor says her life depends on them. Some will opt to wait until the baby is viable, and then deliver early by cesaerean and then have treatment. Those are all legitimate choices. However, abortions isn’t even a practical option here. It does nothing for mom or baby.

Can you please come up with a legitimate example of a case where an abortion is required to save a woman’s life? It doesn’t really make sense to argue for a case that doesn’t fit the criteria.

 

[Newbie2]

I think risking your life and giving your life are different things. .

If you risk your life and lose, you’ve given your life.

 

[surritter]

I question whether women would give their lives for their babies, my guess is if they had other children, they would choose to live themselves but then again who knows.

It’s OK to admit that you don’t know, but don’t project that onto other people, especially those who are parents!

Why do you think Jesus mentioned the case of leaving 99 sheep to go out after one lost sheep? That parable rings true with humans because – contrary to your assertion – even if they have other children, a mother would indeed risk her safety to save that little one.

 

[ac_claire]

Can you please come up with a legitimate example of a case where an abortion is required to save a woman’s life? It doesn’t really make sense to argue for a case that doesn’t fit the criteria.

It makes sense if you’re just arguing pro-choice rhetoric for the sake of promoting pro-choice rhetoric. And that’s usually what’s going on when we’re presented with these random, fictional scenarios.

 

[Holly3278]

It’s immoral to have an abortion in both cases.

 

[Rence]

It makes sense if you’re just arguing pro-choice rhetoric for the sake of promoting pro-choice rhetoric. And that’s usually what’s going on when we’re presented with these random, fictional scenarios.

Yep, that’s what I said earlier on this thread. Why bother to have a poll if it’s fixed to reveal your own personal answer as the “right” answer. If you’re going to have a legitimate poll, at least provide more options so that you include more realistic solutions for people to choose. The way the poll was set up, it was orchestrated as a lose-lose.

 

[flyingfish]

Can you please come up with a legitimate example of a case where an abortion is required to save a woman’s life? It doesn’t really make sense to argue for a case that doesn’t fit the criteria.

You’re asking me to come up with a specific medical condition. I never went to med school, and I don’t have the time to scour medical literature to find one.

I’m saying, assume such a condition exists, what do you do? It’s not logically impossible for such a condition to exist.

I don’t understand why people have so much trouble addressing a hypothetical scenario, and require a real life example of when this happened. Look at moral dilemmas like 2 vs 5 people on a train track, do you redirect the train. No, it’s not a realistic scenario, but it’s not a logically impossible scenario and it makes people think about fundamentals. Even if a medical condition that would mean abortion or death doesn’t currently exist, it doesn’t make the question pointless.

 

[rayne89]

I have a daughter whom I love dearly. If I become pregnant today barring a miracle from God I will die during the pregnancy. My heart is not strong enough to sustain a pregnancy, my heart defects have made my heart weaken overtime. The last thing I would want is my daughter to lose her mother but I would not kill my unborn child to prevent that. I must trust God, in His will and not my own. It is His plan, not mine. I do not pretend to know better than God.

 

[YADA]

You’re asking me to come up with a specific medical condition. I never went to med school, and I don’t have the time to scour medical literature to find one.

I’m saying, assume such a condition exists, what do you do? It’s not logically impossible for such a condition to exist.

I don’t understand why people have so much trouble addressing a hypothetical scenario, and require a real life example of when this happened. Look at moral dilemmas like 2 vs 5 people on a train track, do you redirect the train. No, it’s not a realistic scenario, but it’s not a logically impossible scenario and it makes people think about fundamentals. Even if a medical condition that would mean abortion or death doesn’t currently exist, it doesn’t make the question pointless.

Well perhaps its the “hypothetical” is also that for the Medical establishment … We just spent a recent weekend with friends … the husband was diagnosed with stage IV lung cancer and given 6 months to live. Basically this couple was told to get their affairs in order and spend as much quality time as possible because their time together was limited.

They closed a recently opened business, sold their home, moved back to her home town [so she would be near family] …

The date of that 6 months to live diagnosis … September, 2004 … He still has Stage IV lung cancer … this man eventually went back to work on a part-time basis … 6 months .some 5 plus years ago…

Yes, this friend is beating the averages joining somehting like 0.05 % of lung cancer patients … his wife is a power prayer and they have faught for every bit of treatment they have received [stage IV is considered untreatable] … and they are living in a town they would not have chosen to live in and lost money in the ‘crisis’ of selling a house and closing a business under duress …

So why would you kill your child [an immoral action] based on something a doctor cannot know with any real certainty? We are talking about ending one life - for an unknown outcome of another … it is a non-sensical scenario …

 

[michaeldaniels]

It is never acceptable, under any circumstance to play God, and to decide who lives and dies…NEVER…it is illrelevant to talk about a hypothetical situation…because it doesn’t matter…no matter the situation, because if you refuse the abortion and the mother dies, then she dies a natural death by God’s will…if you refuse the abortion and both the mother and child dies…they both die a natural death…however, if you choose one over the other, you are placing the value of one’s life over the other, which is never acceptable

You’re asking me to come up with a specific medical condition. I never went to med school, and I don’t have the time to scour medical literature to find one.

I’m saying, assume such a condition exists, what do you do? It’s not logically impossible for such a condition to exist.

I don’t understand why people have so much trouble addressing a hypothetical scenario, and require a real life example of when this happened. Look at moral dilemmas like 2 vs 5 people on a train track, do you redirect the train. No, it’s not a realistic scenario, but it’s not a logically impossible scenario and it makes people think about fundamentals. Even if a medical condition that would mean abortion or death doesn’t currently exist, it doesn’t make the question pointless.

 

[Rence]

You’re asking me to come up with a specific medical condition. I never went to med school, and I don’t have the time to scour medical literature to find one.

I’m saying, assume such a condition exists, what do you do? It’s not logically impossible for such a condition to exist.

**You do what you can to attempt to save both. You do what you can to treat both. If you lose one as a result of treatment, it’s an unfortunate risk that you take, but you don’t kill one to save the other. Removing the baby is killing, it’s not a treatment. Treating the mother’s condition is not the same as aborting the baby. **

I don’t understand why people have so much trouble addressing a hypothetical scenario, and require a real life example of when this happened.

**Because it’s not a reasonable hypothetical senario. I don’t care about the choices you provided. My issue is that you’re not providing additonal choices. By limiting the choices, you’re forcing people to answer your poll by choosing one extreme or the other. I can also ask you: why are you having so much trouble addressing the fact that there are other options that don’t include abortion? Your poll completely ignores those options. Why not add them? **

 

[GwenL]

Abortion in either scenario is an immoral act of murder.

It is also murder when a parent abandons a child to starve, under any conditions.

I actually read quite a few accounts of very poor women in South America who end up leaving their born children to die when they see that there will not be enough food for everyone. They will cut their losses and only save some.

What accounts? If there are “quite a few,” you ought to be able to provide us a link. Please do.