Abortion for rape victims

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rain_bow said:
I And a parasite can not be a human being.It is only a human being when it can survive outside womb. And what if you want to safe a mother’s life? will you not suggest abortion? Then who gave you the right to kill a life( fetus) to save another life(mother)?
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You were once that ‘parasite’. A procured ‘abortion’ is not the medical treatment for any illness. A treatment to save the life of a mother is not an abortion. One is concerned with the hypocratic oath of saving life, the other the willful destruction of it.
 
rain_bow said:
I have asked this question to “ask an apologist” forum. But They did not reply me. So I have decided to discuss here.As far I know Roman Catholic Church is pro life and it considers that life begins with fertilization.

Anyway What is the scientific proof of it? What Eastern orthodox Churches teaches about it? Are rape victims allowed to abortion before fetal stage, or not? If not then what would happen if a married women is rape victim,or a child?

Why they must carry the lifeless fertile ovum( scientific), and then make it a real baby? And for married women, why husbands will accept it? And after all before fetal stage , even it does not kick, so how is it possible that life begins with fertilization?
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A FEW POINTS OF CLARIFICATION
1.Before conception the Ovum if it is healthy is said to be fertile.
2.Before conception the Sperm if it is healthy is said to be fertile.
3.Before conception the healthy Ovum and Sperm have the potential to become life.
4.When the Sperm and Ovum come together they instantaneously ( under a second ) knit and become life, as already the child’s sex, eye and hair colour even fingerprints have been determined as well as any genetic health issues waiting for them such as Type1Diabetes.

Life truly is created at the “moment” of fertilisation.
 
Pilgrim1701 said:
You were once that ‘parasite’. A procured ‘abortion’ is not the medical treatment for any illness. A treatment to save the life of a mother is not an abortion. One is concerned with the hypocratic oath of saving life, the other the willful destruction of it.
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No that was not me, that was something growing in my mom’s womb and she was taking care of it willingly to create me.And when my mother gave me birth, then it was real me.and about abortion? even it is possible by medicine. Like medicine can destroy cancer cells,but it save human life.And Actually my mom wanted to bring me in the world so I was born in this world. and before my birth I was nothing. What is a human being that can not move or can not survive outside womb? I am the product of the love of my parents, not a product of the torture to my mother. and another thing, sperms are living things, eggs are also living things. So when peoples masturbate,do you consider it as killing? no dead sperm or egg can give birth. can a woman become pregnant if she intercourse during her Menstruation? No because that time the dead eggs are released from womb. So do you think that Masturbation is killing? it contains sperm that is alive and this sperm can fertile ovum and make zygote, and in women womb it grows bigger and then in fetal stage it called fetus?So what is the real human life? I am not a fetus, I am a human being.And tell me ,if abortion is killing then why the killers do not get death penalty?

it can be a source
 
rain_bow said:
No that was not me, that was something growing in my mom’s womb and she was taking care of it willingly to create me.
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Ok so that wasn’t you. You started at they day of your birth, or was it when you stopped breast feeding, or when you could survive on your own without your parents? Did you begin with the earliest memory that you can still rembember? When did you begin?
rain_bow said:
. What is a human being that can not move or can not survive outside womb?.
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Why care fore the sick, the elderly, terminally ill, those with learning disablities, those who are refugees and can’t survie in their own countries. Lots of people regardless of race, religion, economic background, or physical ablility cannot survive without the support of others in some way or another. Do you exist without other people in your life?
rain_bow said:
. I am the product of the love of my parents, not a product of the torture to my mother.
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So am I. Your point being? Lots of people living have been the ‘product of rape’. (They are the same as you and I. Given the choice, none of us (presumably) would choose to abort ourselves).
rain_bow said:
. and another thing, sperms are living things, eggs are also living things. So when peoples masturbate,do you consider it as killing? .
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Hardly. since in the natural process, 1/4 million sperm aren’t ‘successfull’ even when sex leads to conception.
rain_bow said:
. no dead sperm or egg can give birth. can a woman become pregnant if she intercourse during her Menstruation? No because that time the dead eggs are released from womb. .
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non sequitur argument
rain_bow said:
. So do you think that Masturbation is killing?.
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See above.
rain_bow said:
. it contains sperm that is alive and this sperm **can fertile **ise🤷 ovum and make *(a) *zygote, and in women womb it grows bigger and then in fetal stage it called fetus?So what is the real human life? I am not a fetus, I am a human being.And tell me ,if abortion is killing then why the killers do not get death penalty?
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As you state it begins with the zygote. Where there is no zygote there is no new life to begin with.
The zygote then grows into fetus ect etc to hopefully the geriatric.
As to abortionists not getting the death penalty, in some places its not against the law. That still doesn’t mean its right.

Sorry if I take this a step further. But it seems as if this is something personal to you. If so I’m sorry if youv’e been affected by this.That doesn’t mean you can be placated and patronised though. If taking a gun out and blowing someones head off is wrong beacuse it is killing, then killing itself is wrong regardless of the method. The rationalisation of when life begins is an attempt to legitimise killing the unborn by saying its not a life to begin with. The only problem is, life begins, biologically at the zygote, even if you don’t believe it is infused with a soul at that point.
If you would hope someone wouldn’t murder you now, it follows you would wish it wouldn’t have happened at an earlier stage of your development.
 
OP, you seem to have a very poor understanding of human reproduction and human biology.

You say before your birth, you were nothing. What, then, was in your mother’s womb before your birth? A puppy? An alien? A kitten? A tumor? A basketball? Whatever it was, it had brain waves, a heartbeat, fingerprints, unique DNA (that ironically matches your current DNA perfectly…).

If you currently live in New York and you then move to Boston, would you say you never existed before you moved to Boston?

It is just like a baby. First it lives in its mother’s womb. Then it moves to the outside. It has always existed. It just changed where it lived.
 
Catholic90 said:
It just changed where it lived.
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Exactly!

**rain_bow [/quote said:
] .What is a human being that can not move or can not survive outside womb?.

Ask any woman that has ever been pregnant. A child int eh womb can move, kick wiggle and some women will swear that kid uses her organs as toys (though that toy bit is probably a little of an exaggeration). When I was pregnant in the last trimester you could SEE my stomach get jostled around as the kid moved around in there. Unborn babies move. They can survive outside the womb starting as early as 23 weeks old. One is documented to have lived outside the womb after only 21 weeks. And as other posters have mentioned, there are other types of human beings that cannot survive on thier own even when at adult age due to disability, accident, mental deficiencies etc.

As as for rape, the CHILD didn’t rape the woman, the man did. IF you insist on killing someone/something for the crime, at least let it be the criminal and not the innocent.
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rain_bow said:
Well never went to a Catholic school for sure:rolleyes:
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Then you imperfectly know their teaching, I’m sorry. Your doesn’t supercede theirs. There is no solid basis to place the creature before the creator. No religion worldwide ever does this, only man in imperfect understand. From Budda to Confusious right down the line. None place the creature before the creator. Or there own wisdom before one whom then knew would be sent.

What quantifys your thinking? Man knowledge remains in the beginging of God, his is infinate on a geometric line in both directions, mans is not his is a ray with a begining then proceeds to infinate. Animals have a stop and start line in geometric thinking.

Peace
 
If abortion is performed on the child within a woman, then the man that that inseminated the woman must be illuminated in the same manner used on the unborn child in the womb. Either that or removal of all his genitalia. I bet that would stop abortion. It would be no less offensive to kill the man this way as it is to allow the continued killing of babies.
 
PbloPicasso said:
If abortion is performed on the child within a woman, then the man that that inseminated the woman must be illuminated in the same manner used on the unborn child in the womb. Either that or removal of all his genitalia. I bet that would stop abortion. It would be no less offensive to kill the man this way as it is to allow the continued killing of babies.
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You’re speaking about rapists, right? What if a man who accidentally got a woman pregnant through consentual sex*** doesn’t ***want the kid aborted? How come he has no rights here?

-Chris
 
cmforte said:
You’re speaking about rapists, right? What if a man who accidentally got a woman pregnant through consentual sex*** doesn’t ***want the kid aborted? How come he has no rights here?

-Chris
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Consensual sex or not, abortion is still sinful. My suggestion would deter men from, to say it in a way I often hear it, “sticking it where it doesn’t belong”. If a man doesn’t approve of the abortion, then the woman would bear the penalty. Sort of an eye for an eye belief. Hey, nothing’s perfect, except simply having the baby and bearing the consequences for ones actions, even if it means poverty. I’ve lived in poverty and so has my wife. It’s bad, but not nearly as bad as people try to make it out to be. Life is priceless. Real poverty is a nation that allows the system wide acceptance and promotion of abortion.

I’m not suggesting that this actually be done. It’s something to make people think. But if one looks beneath the “cleaned up” surface of what abortion actually entails, they would not want that done to themselves. Unless you approve of the methods used by middle age government, then you wouldn’t want this done to you. Two movies I watched during my life, one particularly portrays Roman torture quite accurately from what I’ve read, was Caligula and the other is better illustrated in “The Tutors”. The type of death they actually administered was not only decapitation, but quartering, gutting, burning, etc. Abortion includes cutting off limbs, decapitation, gutting, etc.

Why would anyone condemn and unborn child to such cruelty all because his father was a real demented man or jerk?
 
kubark said:
Modern genetics and embryology have PROVEN that the unborn entity is a living, unique genetic member of Homo sapiens from the moment of conception.
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Please provide reliable source. I can’t write long reply now because i’m traveling and using mobile and with mobile i can not write long reply.so we will talk about it again later.but 1st you need to post any reliable link.thanks 🙂
 
Pilgrim1701 said:
You were once that ‘parasite’. A procured ‘abortion’ is not the medical treatment for any illness. A treatment to save the life of a mother is not an abortion. One is concerned with the hypocratic oath of saving life, the other the willful destruction of it.
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Oh really?so when its necessary to save mothers life then if you remove this fetus then its not abortion but just treatment?and another time its genocide?however if removing the fetus for the sake of saving the mother’s life is not killing,then indeed removing the fertile ovum or fetus can’t be murder in order to free this woman from a permanent mark of a terrible abuse.
 
And in real life a mother saves her kid even if she needs to sacrifice her life.sometime she failed and both died but mothers never ever try to leave their kids in danger to save their own life.so if fetus is full human being then it must not be removed for the sake of saving mother’s life.who know maybe almighty god can make the fetus survive outside the mother’s womb (nothing is impossible for God,right?😉 )
 
rain_bow said:
Oh really?so when its necessary to save mothers life then if you remove this fetus then its not abortion but just treatment?and another time its genocide? However if removing the fetus for the sake of saving the mother’s life is not killing,then indeed removing the fertile ovum or fetus can’t be murder in order to free this woman from a permanent mark of a terrible abuse.
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No its not just but treatment, its just but murder:shrug: Unfortuante Doctors today are now killing the elders and choosing who should live also. SO unwanted babys, unwanteted elders. Who should we kill next???

Only one senerio where the womens live not the babys is saved. its rare it breaks down like this. Complications arrive during delivery. The can’t get the baby out. They have to cut the woman to get the baby.

Now heres how it works. They ask before they cut, who do you want save if only one can be saved. Most familys chose the mother, if the mother had some pre-written agreement I don’t know. Both may live and it usually works that way. When things head south though the choice has to be made. When She is bleeding out and baby is trying to be saved, and troubles are still there. Its a problem

And if they saved the mother, its was still abortion. Don’t what to tell you.

Your last paragraph is incorrect. Murder is murder, abortion is murder. And yes removing this terrible mark as you call it is…Murder. No its not abuse, what your talking about IS ABUSE and a total disregard for the sanctity of life. Your talking about MURDER. What part of your strawman arguement are you missing when confronted with Truth. 🤷
 
GaryTaylor said:
Scientific proof exists. And electrosound proves it immediatly…life is life. Watch the EWTN show on abortion which is basically a show by Dr Martin Luther Kings family here, promoted by the CC. There’s going to be a very big problem with this, this coming election. Of course life begins by fert. how else would you imagine it happens?
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I would prefer a scientific source instead of a Catholic site. thanks 🙂
 
Originally Posted by kubark
Modern genetics and embryology have PROVEN that the unborn entity is a living, unique genetic member of Homo sapiens from the moment of conception.
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rain_bow said:
Please provide reliable source. I can’t write long reply now because i’m traveling and using mobile and with mobile i can not write long reply.so we will talk about it again later.but 1st you need to post any reliable link.thanks 🙂
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How about this link?
nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm

<<A single sperm penetrates the mother’s egg cell, and the resulting cell is called a zygote. The zygote contains all of the genetic information (DNA) necessary to become a child.>>
 
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