Abortion in OT

[jttierney1]

I have a friend that I’ve been talking to about the catholic church, whom I believe is a sincere seeker, ask me about a bible verse in the OT. She texted “Numbers 5:11-31 talks about abortion and how the priest has to do it and even tells how. Just wanted to get your thoughts on it.”

This is a personal subject for her and it seems there are several angles I could come at the answer but none seem play out in my head ‘just right’ Any suggestions?

 

[promethius]

I have a friend that I’ve been talking to about the catholic church, whom I believe is a sincere seeker, ask me about a bible verse in the OT. She texted “Numbers 5:11-31 talks about abortion and how the priest has to do it and even tells how. Just wanted to get your thoughts on it.”

This is a personal subject for her and it seems there are several angles I could come at the answer but none seem play out in my head ‘just right’ Any suggestions?

Um… no. This section does nothing of the sort. What it does is a version of what is called “sympathetic magic”… not in the sense that pagans use it, but in the sense that it is designed to promote a desired result that has nothing to do with the action itself.

Namely, if the woman believes that she is going to suffer such a plague if she has cheated, she will confess to avoid the horrible consequences.

If the man is wrongfully accusing her, as would often have happened, then the woman will drink the water and nothing will happen.

But the reality is that a woman drinking water mixed with ink and some dust off the floor of a church has never in history caused an abortion. The desired effect was either the fear of the woman causing a confession or the jealousy of the husband to be dismissed if the (presumably) innocent woman drank the dusty water and nothing happened.

An imperfect trial for justice…sure… but it certainly would have promoted social and marital stability. Who ever said God wasn’t so familiar with human nature as to trick us into behaving rightly?

 

[TimothyH]

The entire passage has nothing to do with abortion.

It is a reference to the condition which we know today as Pelvic Organ Prolapse or Prolapsed Uterus.

If a husband suspected his wife of unfaithfulness, he had the right to bring her before the priests in the Temple where a curse would be involked to which she would agree.

May this water, then, that brings a curse, enter your bowels to make your belly swell and your uterus fall!” And the woman shall say, “Amen, amen!” (Numbers 5:22)

A swelled belly and fallen uterus is Pelvic Prolapse. Upon drinking the water which had been made holy by virtue of its presence in the tabernacle, the woman would enter into the curse, and if she had indeed been unfaithful, the belief was that she would then experience a prolapsed uterus. If she wasn’t faithful, then her uterus wouldn’t prolapse.

It has nothing to do with abortion. The priests did not abort babies in the temple.

I have to shake my head at this one. It is even more absurd that the one where being born of water and the spirit means being born of amniotic fluid.

-Tim-

 

[Kaninchen]

The potion was probably not very pleasant but, basically, harmless.

An alternative explanation was that it was a good way of shutting up vexatious husbands - drink the potion, nothing happens, husband has to accept it.

 

[promethius]

The potion was probably not very pleasant but, basically, harmless.

An alternative explanation was that it was a good way of shutting up vexatious husbands - drink the potion, nothing happens, husband has to accept it.

Or, as I said, if you’re guilty you didn’t WANT that horrible curse, so having heard what might happen to you, you confessed to the priest without drinking the ink-water…

Like I said, it’s a case of sympathetic magic to either garner a confession of guilt from an adulterous woman or to quell the wrath of a jealous husband.

 

[Leegal]

I have a friend that I’ve been talking to about the catholic church, whom I believe is a sincere seeker, ask me about a bible verse in the OT. She texted “Numbers 5:11-31 talks about abortion and how the priest has to do it and even tells how. Just wanted to get your thoughts on it.”

This is a personal subject for her and it seems there are several angles I could come at the answer but none seem play out in my head ‘just right’ Any suggestions?

The Catholic Church is not bound by the OT – only the Decalogue or the 10 Commandments. Christ came to fulfill the prophecy and bring us the new “Word.” If the Church prohibits an action, the Magisterium has the final word. Our beliefs are a sum of all teachings, not scripture alone.

I think I can safely say that the Church does not hold to Numbers 5:11-31, even if it was a prescription for abortion and not a prescription for a jealous husband which is what it appears to be speaking of – jealously over a suspect wife’s possible infidelity.

 

[Kaninchen]

Or, as I said, if you’re guilty you didn’t WANT that horrible curse, so having heard what might happen to you, you confessed to the priest without drinking the ink-water…

Like I said, it’s a case of sympathetic magic to either garner a confession of guilt from an adulterous woman or to quell the wrath of a jealous husband.

I expect our Bronze Age ancestresses soon caught on.

 

[promethius]

I expect our Bronze Age ancestresses soon caught on.

There are people who eschew doctors and try to pray deadly diseases away.

I never underestimate the gullibility of people… especially if there were a few helpful rumors of it actually happening (which any case of a woman with a prolapsed uterus would have provided as a helpful “see! it can happen!” story)

 

[TimothyH]

The point which I think the OP can take away is that the friend stated that the passage was about abortion and this is incorrect.

The passage does not reference abortion but a medical condition among woman which is reasonably common and often treated.

Some races such as caucasians are more genetically prone to the condition. A diet low in fiber can cause constipation and this is often a contributor. Heavy lifting can weaken the pelvic floor. It is more common among third world countries where proper diet is lacking and where woman do more manual labor.

It is normal for the OB-GYN to instruct women today to do pelvic exercises, contractions and such, to strengthen the pelvic floor and surrounding muscles. This is what the OB-GYN did for my wife during all three of her pregnancies.

It would have been more than just a rumor. The condition is more common than men think, especially as women get older. One would suspect that the condition might be quite common as the Israelites wandered around the desert for 40 years.

-Tim-

 

[Kaninchen]

There are people who eschew doctors and try to pray deadly diseases away.

I never underestimate the gullibility of people… especially if there were a few helpful rumors of it actually happening (which any case of a woman with a prolapsed uterus would have provided as a helpful “see! it can happen!” story)

Gullibility of some people, not all.

I think it would be a mistake to ignore the accumulated wisdom of Jewish women - it’s easy to forget that Jewish women were busy keeping the tribe/family/agribusiness show on the road (given the heavy religious obligations the Torah placed on Jewish men) and would have been heavily dependent on one another and mutual experience.

While our knowledge has increased, I expect that human nature remains fairly constant and taking men with a pinch of salt (or dust from the Temple floor) would have been a feature of Jewish life, even then.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

I would say that this is a better biblical argument for abortion:
Genesis 38:24

Your daughter-in-law Tamar has played the harlot, and behold, she is also with child by harlotry.” Then Judah said, “Bring her out and let her be burned!”

Judah was about to kill a pregnant woman for her crimes. He was entirely unconcerned about the innocent baby.

 

[JimmytheButcher]

The potion was probably not very pleasant but, basically, harmless.

An alternative explanation was that it was a good way of shutting up vexatious husbands - drink the potion, nothing happens, husband has to accept it.

I love your answer! You have said it well.

That’s exactly what it’s about… well… that and some typological stuff we needn’t get into.

 

[bgk0018]

Namely, if the woman believes that she is going to suffer such a plague if she has cheated, she will confess to avoid the horrible consequences.

So, lying/manipulation to get what you want out of her.

Who ever said God wasn’t so familiar with human nature as to trick us into behaving rightly?

God does not deceive, this would go against being omni-benevolent.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=502101

If a husband suspected his wife of unfaithfulness, he had the right to bring her before the priests in the Temple where a curse would be invoked to which she would agree.

Cursed by who? Surely not the omni-benevolent or in its name.

The Catholic Church is not bound by the OT – only the Decalogue or the 10 Commandments. Christ came to fulfill the prophecy and bring us the new “Word.” If the Church prohibits an action, the Magisterium has the final word. Our beliefs are a sum of all teachings, not scripture alone.

I think I can safely say that the Church does not hold to Numbers 5:11-31, even if it was a prescription for abortion and not a prescription for a jealous husband which is what it appears to be speaking of – jealously over a suspect wife’s possible infidelity

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=19520
Not to mention Matthew 5:17 (destroy not fullfill) or the fact that cherry picking from the Bible doesn’t help your case.

A couple more to consider:

1. If a man hurts a woman who is pregnant and the baby dies but she doesn’t, he isn’t to be killed and the punishment is to be left up to the husband. This means that an unborn child does not have the same value as a living person as murder of a living person elsewhere in the bible requires execution(Exodus 21:12). Ex 21:22-23
2. Hosea prays for god to cause all the ephraimite women to miscarry and god obliges. Hos 9:11-16
3. Moses orders the killing of all male children and women that are pregnant or that might even be pregnant to end the genetic line of an enemy. Num 31:17
4. God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “women with child shall be ripped up.” Hos 13:16

Hope to see some more discussion on this.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

I love your answer! You have said it well.

That’s exactly what it’s about… well… that and some typological stuff we needn’t get into.

Something about this thread has been bothering me, and I think I realize what it is. I think your somewhat flippant answers suggest you are aware of it too.

Since the bible commands a priest to prepare a concoction for the purpose of performing an abortion, there are exactly two possibilities. Either the priest believes he may be performing an abortion or he does not. If the priest does not believe that the mixture is dangerous, then the bible is expressly commanding the priests to lie to believers in order to scare them into compliance. However, if the priest does believe he may be performing an abortion, he must also believe it is justified. Therefore there are two more possibilities. Either it is justified, or the bible explicitly misled the priest.

 

[TimothyH]

Something about this thread has been bothering me, and I think I realize what it is. I think your somewhat flippant answers suggest you are aware of it too.

Since the bible commands a priest to prepare a concoction for the purpose of performing an abortion, there are exactly two possibilities. Either the priest believes he may be performing an abortion or he does not. If the priest does not believe that the mixture is dangerous, then the bible is expressly commanding the priests to lie to believers in order to scare them into compliance. However, if the priest does believe he may be performing an abortion, he must also believe it is justified. Therefore there are two more possibilities. Either it is justified, or the bible explicitly misled the priest.

The passage has nothing to do with abortion.

Please read the passage.

May this water, then, that brings a curse, enter your bowels to make your belly swell and your uterus fall!” And the woman shall say, “Amen, amen!” (Numbers 5:22)

The belly swelling and the uterus falling is not abortion. It is a common medical condition among women which we today know and treat as Prolapsed Uterus or Pelvic Organ Prolapse.

The priest does not believe he is performing an abortion nor does he not believe he is performing an abortion. Abortion does not enter the priests mind, nor the mind of the husband nor the mind of the wife because whole thing is about Pelvic Prolapse and not about abortion.

Google the term “Pessary.” Pessaries were used to treat Pelvic and Genital Prolapse as far back as ancient Egypt. You can read “The History and Evolution of Pessaries for Pelvic Organ Prolapse” in the International Journal of Urology and Gynacology at springerlink.com/content/v25111v311jv1h3p/fulltext.pdf.

The whole thing has absolutely nothing to do with abortion.

-Tim-"

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

The passage has nothing to do with abortion.

Please read the passage.

May this water, then, that brings a curse, enter your bowels to make your belly swell and your uterus fall!” And the woman shall say, “Amen, amen!” (Numbers 5:22)

The belly swelling and the uterus falling is not abortion. It is a common medical condition among women which we today know and treat as Prolapsed Uterus or Pelvic Organ Prolapse.

The priest does not believe he is performing an abortion nor does he not believe he is performing an abortion. Abortion does not enter the priests mind, nor the mind of the husband nor the mind of the wife because whole thing is about Pelvid Prolapse and has absolutely nothing to do with abortion.

-Tim-

I think the specific wording depends on the translation
Douay-Rheims says:

21These curses shall light upon thee: The Lord make thee a curse, and an example for all among his people: may he make thy thigh to rot, and may thy belly swell and burst asunder.

27And when she hath drunk them, if she be defiled, and having despised her husband be guilty of adultery, the malediction shall go through her, and her belly swelling, her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse, and an example to all the people.

28But if she be not defiled, she shall not be hurt, and shall bear children.

Suggesting that if she *were *defiled she would *not *bear children

 

[TimothyH]

I think the specific wording depends on the translation
Douay-Rheims says:

Suggesting that if she *were *defiled she would *not *bear children

You can’t bear children with a prolapsed uterus.

My friend, I have seen it. In extreme cases the organs fall out of the pelvic floor AKA “Burst asunder”.

It is very common in the third world.

Google some pictures and then have it your way.

That’s as far as I’m going with this thread.

Pax

-Tim-

 

[promethius]

The passage has nothing to do with abortion.

Please read the passage.
May this water, then, that brings a curse, enter your bowels to make your belly swell and your uterus fall!” And the woman shall say, “Amen, amen!” (Numbers 5:22)
The belly swelling and the uterus falling is not abortion. It is a common medical condition among women which we today know and treat as Prolapsed Uterus or Pelvic Organ Prolapse.

The priest does not believe he is performing an abortion nor does he not believe he is performing an abortion. Abortion does not enter the priests mind, nor the mind of the husband nor the mind of the wife because whole thing is about Pelvic Prolapse and not about abortion.

Google the term “Pessary.” Pessaries were used to treat Pelvic and Genital Prolapse as far back as ancient Egypt. You can read “The History and Evolution of Pessaries for Pelvic Organ Prolapse” in the International Journal of Urology and Gynacology at springerlink.com/content/v25111v311jv1h3p/fulltext.pdf.

The whole thing has absolutely nothing to do with abortion.

-Tim-"

I think there’s a key point here that TrueCentrist is missing… that the contents of the “potion” do nothing, in themselves, to cause the condition warranted, namely, that nothing that is done by any of the people in the passage would cause an aborted pregnancy.

The priest asks for a “curse” from God which would cause the condition, and then gives the woman a physically harmless concoction. If the condition then arose, it would be with the permission (or, presumably, the action) of God… something that God, as the arbiter and sustainer of all life, has the right to do.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

I think there’s a key point here that TrueCentrist is missing… that the contents of the “potion” do nothing, in themselves, to cause the condition warranted, namely, that nothing that is done by any of the people in the passage would cause an aborted pregnancy.

No, nothing in my argument required the “potion” do anything at all.

 

[promethius]

No, nothing in my argument required the “potion” do anything at all.

So then you have a problem with miscarraige in general, and you routinely go online to protest miscarraiges? What about volcano eruptions?

IF the potion “worked” and the woman developed a condition in which the fetus died, then that would be no different than your death will one day (hopefully far away!) be… God calls us home when He wills. So what is your issue?