Abortion is also a social justice concern

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I’m a Social Justice fan, and feel that life is a good thing for everybody.
 
I think life is precious, although some good people don’t have very good experiences in life, which is sad.

That’s why I also believe that those of us who are presently enjoying good lives should do what we can to ease the way for those who are less fortunate. I would like to see more support and care for those parents who are trying to look after children in less than optimum circumstances. If that were the case, maybe fewer women would feel that abortion was an option they had to consider.
 
Isca said:
I think life is precious, although some good people don’t have very good experiences in life, which is sad.

That’s why I also believe that those of us who are presently enjoying good lives should do what we can to ease the way for those who are less fortunate. I would like to see more support and care for those parents who are trying to look after children in less than optimum circumstances. If that were the case, maybe fewer women would feel that abortion was an option they had to consider.
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Of course. And perhaps preaching and teaching that marriage is the best context for children and raising children. And also, this is social justice, working toward a society in which wageearners make a living wage, to support their families.

This, to be sure, is an ideal. But we strive for human equality; we should strive for human family as well. Both are light-giving ideals.
 
The devil was very clever in getting people to sever ‘life’ issues from ‘social justice’ issues, which no pope since since Leo XIII inaugurated to social Magisterium One thing I would like to see Catholic radio doing is dispelling the illusion that one can be had without the other - that somehow one ccould support the raging materialist philosophy that governs natural and social exploitation by grafting a few Catholic words or notions onto thought which is wholly alien to the unity tht marks the Spirit’s provenance in Church teaching.
 
That echos the words of Pope Saint John Paul II
Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights-for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture- is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination.
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  • Christifides Laici
The Right to Life is the key to all social justices issues. All other issues, such as Right to Health Care, Right to Education, etc… hinge on that most fundamental right, the Right to Life.

As +JPII notes, without that all other rights are 'False and illusory"
 
As I see it, there are two different issues here.

First, abortion as a moral issue. I think the case for abortion being immoral is very strong, and I support all efforts by pro-lifers to promote the moral arguments on why abortion is wrong.

However, my view is that the most moral way to be pro-life is to NOT campaign for changing the law to make abortion illegal. I realize that most Catholics would disagree with me on this, but I simply can’t see the logic behind the argument that making abortion illegal would somehow stop abortions from happening, or even reduce the number of abortions. All criminalizing abortion would do is drive it underground, and compel those who desire abortions to take more dangerous medical technology and procedures. All the available evidence we have on rates of abortion in countries where it’s legal and where it’s illegal tells us that making abortion illegal doesn’t work. And those specific statistics on abortion outweigh any creative arguments pro lifers make about some kind of cultural sea change occurring if the law makers get together and outlaw abortion.

Plus, if abortion is made illegal, how in the world could it be justly enforced? Every woman who has a miscarraige would be a murder suspect? Would possessing items that could produce an abortion be criminalized? If someone hears a woman say she’s pregnant, and later no sign of pregnancy, would the woman be arrested to undergo a thorough examination by medical police, with a lie detector?

I notice that when Catholic apologists like Trent Horn talk about abortion, they have very strong arguments for the moral position of why abortion is wrong…but (to me at least) very weak and glib arguments for why abortion should be a crime.

Like it or not, abortion is a peculiar public health issue – it’s not just a moral issue, however much we want it to be. For that reason I think the Church should concentrate on telling the world why abortion is wrong, rather than working to get Catholics to vote for political candidates who would outlaw abortion.
 
It is a travesty that many international social justice groups fund and aid anti-life causes including abortion. It is a scandal that some of these groups call themselves “Catholic.”
 
It really is a shame that abortion has been divorced from social justice issues. We’re not only talking about the unborn child (which is very important) in the womb but also the particular demographics of women who get abortions. The good-intentioned progressive looks at the racial disparity in high school dropout rates and - I think rightly - becomes concerned at the apparent inequality. However, the same progressive will look at the high rates of poor, minority women receiving abortions and nod approvingly. After all, those destitute folks just need more contraceptives and abortions until their incomes begin to rise.
 
I’m not sure where I first saw this, but the phrase:
"Social Justice Begins in the Womb"
is true. Without Life, no other rights can be conferred upon the individual. It’s just common sense.

I would also think that many who support a “woman’s right to choose” might agree that 3,000 abortions per day just in the USA is way too many. Of course, there is no way to know the actual statistic since some will be caused by Plan B and other abortifacients.

Interestingly, I just heard about this book (perhaps via EWTN radio):
Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?: Demography and Politics in the Twenty-First Century by an author with a secular point of view. His conclusion is (unsurprisingly), YES!

I think the efforts of Trent Horn and others are to change minds/hearts, to shift the Culture of Death to one of Life, the result of which will be making abortion unthinkable. There are encouraging signs that this is already happening!

It seems like a long shot, but part of this change is promoting Chastity, along with a profound reverence & respect for one’s fertility and ability to procreate. It is very difficult when we are practically bombarded with ads featuring beautiful people and a general attitude of “if it feels good, do it”. Strengthening the family is also key (getting rid of laws, taxes, which penalize marriage & child-bearing which make it a burden).

BTW, school-based clinics are one way for more abortions to be had without parental consent or fore-knowledge, as well as encouraging contraceptive use. We are currently dealing with this in my city. The school is not doing the dispensing directly, but has a connection to another community health clinic which does give referrals for abortion. The PPACA (Obamacare) allows children (14 yrs & older) to act autonomously in making these kinds of life-changing decisions.

I think churches of all denominations could make a huge impact in helping achieve strengthening the family, and I know many already are.

Let’s encourage all to “fight the good fight”!

God bless,
Mimi
 
Trent Horn’s position is that abortion be absolutely illegal – that is why I made my post, as I was questioning the feasibility and actual effectiveness and ultimate results of making abortion absolutely illegal.

Also, and most important, actual studies have been done that examine whether outlawing abortion actually results in stopping or even reducing abortion. The studies confirm that outlawing abortion only results in people going ahead with abortion anyway, but with methods that are less safe than if abortion were legal.

I thought I made all this clear in my post.
 
Absolvo said:
Trent Horn’s position is that abortion be absolutely illegal – that is why I made my post, as I was questioning the feasibility and actual effectiveness and ultimate results of making abortion absolutely illegal.

Also, and most important, actual studies have been done that examine whether outlawing abortion actually results in stopping or even reducing abortion. The studies confirm that outlawing abortion only results in people going ahead with abortion anyway, but with methods that are less safe than if abortion were legal.

I thought I made all this clear in my post.
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As an ardent pro-life Catholic, I am not willing to capitulate to pro-choice rhetoric. If what you say above were to be proven true, I’d still want abortion to be illegal. The legality of a thing always becomes equated with “rights.” Then “rights” begin to equate (it’s all very subtle of course) with morality. And morality is then diminished to a human law contrary to authentic social justice concerns.
 
I have heard Trent Horn on Catholic Answers many times and also viewed his DVD,

Here is the last paragraph from an article, Answering Three Common Arguments for Abortion at Strange Notions:
We therefore should either treat newborns like fetuses and make it legal to kill them simply because they are unwanted, or we should treat fetuses like newborns and make it illegal to directly kill them because they are unwanted.
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So, I stand corrected.

Nonetheless, his arguments for making abortion illegal ARE having the effect of changing hearts and minds to really think about what abortion is: murder of the innocent unborn human.

Before Roe v Wade & Doe v Bolton, which decriminalized abortion, it still occurred and all were not of the “back-alley” variety. Dr. Nathanson’s testimony states that the numbers were greatly exaggerated. We, as a society, should make more of an effort to protect women who experience unwanted pregnancy and provide more safe-house type places where both can live, and also hold men (the fathers) more responsible for the child’s welfare.

Women deserve better than abortion - and so do those innocent unborn humans.

Mimi
 
Brendan said:
The Right to Life is the key to all social justices issues. All other issues, such as Right to Health Care, Right to Education, etc… hinge on that most fundamental right, the Right to Life.

As +JPII notes, without that all other rights are 'False and illusory"
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👍 Smack on. I think some Catholics make the mistake of ceding “social justice” to so-called liberals. We need to own Catholic Social Teaching - remembering that the right to life is the paramount social justice issue.
 
Absolvo said:
Trent Horn’s position is that abortion be absolutely illegal – that is why I made my post, as I was questioning the feasibility and actual effectiveness and ultimate results of making abortion absolutely illegal.

Also, and most important, actual studies have been done that examine whether outlawing abortion actually results in stopping or even reducing abortion. The studies confirm that outlawing abortion only results in people going ahead with abortion anyway, but with methods that are less safe than if abortion were legal.

I thought I made all this clear in my post.
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Unfortunately, you weren’t as clear as you suppose. Suppose we lived in a more barbaric age without laws, where life was in Hobbes’ words “…nasty, brutish and short,” and killing merely part of daily life.

You might cite studies that would confirm that “outlawing killing only results in people going ahead with killing anyway, but with methods that are less safe than if killing were legal,” and that studies would show that outlawing killing would not really reduce killing because killing would just “go ahead anyway.”

Yet, in light of the fact that abortion is killing, there seems to be a strong moral reason to make it illegal purely on moral grounds, no?

It is difficult concede your claim that the number of abortions wouldn’t be reduced since the numbers seem to grow exponentially and unfettered every year precisely because more and more people are accepting that abortion is not “really” killing.

Making it illegal and difficult so that those willing to commit killing have to put themselves in the same danger as the unborn victim might just be sufficiently persuasive to have perpetrators rethink the idea that it is their “right” to kill another human being.

A reality-check for those who can blithely make these kinds of determinations in an off-handed way:
numberofabortions.com
 
For making abortion illegal to truly have an effect, the overlying culture must undergo a serious change of heart in favor of the sanctity of the unborn. Otherwise will just drive this activity underground. Sure you can make something immoral illegal, but you cannot compel morality, it must be arrived at voluntarily for it to have a truly lasting effect. No amount of waving your hands and saying this moral stance must be compelled is going to change most pro-choice hearts. The cultural change that must happen is for all society, not just us Catholics, to hold abortion to be on the same level as murder. Though progress has been made, we’re not close to that.
 
Absolvo said:
As I see it, there are two different issues here.

First, abortion as a moral issue. I think the case for abortion being immoral is very strong, and I support all efforts by pro-lifers to promote the moral arguments on why abortion is wrong.

However, my view is that the most moral way to be pro-life is to NOT campaign for changing the law to make abortion illegal. I realize that most Catholics would disagree with me on this, but I simply can’t see the logic behind the argument that making abortion illegal would somehow stop abortions from happening, or even reduce the number of abortions. All criminalizing abortion would do is drive it underground, and compel those who desire abortions to take more dangerous medical technology and procedures. All the available evidence we have on rates of abortion in countries where it’s legal and where it’s illegal tells us that making abortion illegal doesn’t work. And those specific statistics on abortion outweigh any creative arguments pro lifers make about some kind of cultural sea change occurring if the law makers get together and outlaw abortion.

Plus, if abortion is made illegal, how in the world could it be justly enforced? Every woman who has a miscarraige would be a murder suspect? Would possessing items that could produce an abortion be criminalized? If someone hears a woman say she’s pregnant, and later no sign of pregnancy, would the woman be arrested to undergo a thorough examination by medical police, with a lie detector?

I notice that when Catholic apologists like Trent Horn talk about abortion, they have very strong arguments for the moral position of why abortion is wrong…but (to me at least) very weak and glib arguments for why abortion should be a crime.

Like it or not, abortion is a peculiar public health issue – it’s not just a moral issue, however much we want it to be. For that reason I think the Church should concentrate on telling the world why abortion is wrong, rather than working to get Catholics to vote for political candidates who would outlaw abortion.
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Good post.

I will actually never vote for a politician who says they want to outlaw abortion in all circumstances, as I would never tell a pregnant rape victim that she has to undergo forced childbirth.
 
Absolvo said:
Criminalizing abortion would do is drive it underground, and compel those who desire abortions to take more dangerous medical technology and procedures. All the available evidence we have on rates of abortion in countries where it’s legal and where it’s illegal tells us that making abortion illegal doesn’t work.

Plus, if abortion is made illegal, how in the world could it be justly enforced? Every woman who has a miscarraige would be a murder suspect? Would possessing items that could produce an abortion be criminalized? If someone hears a woman say she’s pregnant, and later no sign of pregnancy, would the woman be arrested to undergo a thorough examination by medical police, with a lie detector?
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Wow, You could certainly give Johnthan Gruber some competition.
 
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