Abortion is destroying Faith

[GoldenArrow]

I’ve had difficulty trusting God for the past few years and for awhile I lost my faith entirely. I went through a period of going to Mass as an Atheist and going through a period of rediscovering my faith and am now going through a period of what the heck happened over the last 3 years that led to the demise of my faith in the first place???

I figured it out.

I lost my faith because of the legalization of abortion.

My background is in the sciences and science is symmetry. Nature is symmetric. Where there is light, there is dark. Hot vs cold. Opposites and similarities. Protons vs neutrons. Etc… Therefore, in my mind, Earth should be a reflection of Heaven and Heaven should be a reflection of Earth. It’s even stated as such in the Our Father.

OK. So how does abortion fit into that???

Every day innocent babies are killed for no justifiable reason. They do nothing to deserve this fate and there’s nothing they can do of themselves to avoid being aborted. It is legal and therefore supported by society. Therefore it is not wrong. This whole idea of abortion and everything associated with it has poisoned our society and affects each of us in a different way.

In my case, abortion has made me believe on a subconscious level that that innocent souls can die in state of Grace and still go to Hell. That is, God can and does abort souls.

I admit this is probably heretical … and maybe newly so. I am fairly well-versed in theology and don’t recall coming across any heresy that fits the bill.

So, long story short, abortion destroys faith because people believe they can be rejected by God for no reason (because we do it and we are in his image and likeness) and there’s nothing we can do to prevent it in and of ourselves.This leads to hopelessness because we believe we can live holy lives and still be condemned. You lose the motivation to pursue holiness and this leads to loss of Charity and WHAM … destruction of our entire faith and trust in Jesus. It happens so quickly it’s like being beheaded!

In retrospect, that’s what happened to me. It was all quite subconscious and subtle though. I wasn’t aware of why I believed what I did … making such a belief all the more destructive.

I now need to undertake some soulwork (as opposed to homework) purging this thought from my mind. Of course God doesn’t abort souls!

I needed to share this and thought it might be an interesting topic discussion for all of you.

Thank you.

 

[FrenzyJen]

Why do you believe that aborted babies go to hell?

You choose hell by choosing to sin. Babies have not had that chance.

 

[Trishie]

You have two basic questions in your post. One concerns unbaptized children.
The other concerns the salvation of others who unlike babies, in general have attained the age of reason.

Firstly, your thinking is in error regarding the fate of unbaptized children

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

Paragraph 1261 "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,“64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.”

Even the theory of Limbo which wasn’t ever an official doctrine, did not claim unbaptized babies go to hell.

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION

THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS
WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED*

“It is clear that the traditional teaching on this topic has concentrated on the theory of limbo, understood as a state which includes the souls of infants who die subject to original sin and without baptism, and who, therefore, neither merit the beatific vision, nor yet are subjected to any punishment, because they are not guilty of any personal sin. This theory, elaborated by theologians beginning in the Middle Ages, never entered into the dogmatic definitions of the Magisterium, even if that same Magisterium did at times mention the theory in its ordinary teaching up until the Second Vatican Council. It remains therefore a possible theological hypothesis.”

Being endowed with reason, conscience and freedom, adults are responsible for their own destiny in so far as they accept or reject God’s grace. Infants, however, who do not yet have the use of reason, conscience and freedom, cannot decide for themselves. …Parents experience great grief and feelings of guilt when they do not have the moral assurance of the salvation of their children, and people find it increasingly difficult to accept that God is just and merciful if he excludes infants, who have no personal sins, from eternal happiness, whether they are Christian or non-Christian. From a theological point of view, the development of a theology of hope and an ecclesiology of communion, together with a recognition of the greatness of divine mercy, challenge an unduly restrictive view of salvation. In fact, the universal salvific will of God and the correspondingly universal mediation of Christ mean that all theological notions that ultimately call into question the very omnipotence of God, and his mercy in particular, are inadequate.

1. The idea of Limbo, which the Church has used for many centuries to designate the destiny of infants who die without Baptism, has no clear foundation in revelation, even though it has long been used in traditional theological teaching.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

Your belief that unbatized children go to hell was NEVER the teaching of the Church.

 

[Trishie]

God is not a quixotic God who arbitrarily condemns to hell good souls who strive to live according to His commands, which Jesus sums up in Mark 12:30-31 [also in Luke 10:27]
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.

This belief that you hold also contradicts Jesus’ description of His judgement of souls in Matthew 25 verses 31-46: *

‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left.

34Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.”

37Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.”

41Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.”

44Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” 45Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’

Suppose good men or women have sinned in the midst of their good lives, people who try to live according to the commands of love. It is a coldness and a lack of trust indeed, not to believe in the mercy of God who would even in that last instant give that person’s soul the chance to repent of that sin!*

 

[Trishie]

“If the greatest sinner should repent at the moment of his death, and draw his last breath in an act of love, neither the many graces he had abused, nor the multiplied crimes he had committed, would stand in his way. Our Lord would see nothing, count nothing, but the sinner’s last prayer, and without delay He would receive him into the arms of His mercy.” (Saint Therese of Lisieux)

'Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from their ways and live;"Ezekiel 33:11

“Cease to do evil. Learn to do good, search for justice, help the oppressed, be just to the orphan, and plead for the widow. Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.” [Isaiah 1:17-18]

“A spark of pure love is more precious before God, more useful for the soul, and richer in benedictions for the Church than all other works taken together.” (St John of the Cross)

“Walk with simplicity in the way of the Lord and do not torment your spirit. Learn to hate your faults but to hate them calmly.” (Saint Padre Pio) “Heaven is filled with converted sinners of all kinds, and there is room for more” (St. Joseph Cafaso)

“Have you not sometimes loved the Lord? Do you not love God now? Do you not long to love God forever? Therefore, do not fear! Even conceded that you had committed all the sins of this world, Jesus repeats to you: Many sins are forgiven you because you have loved much!” (Saint P. Pio)

“This…is what I pray before the Father from whom every family, whether spiritual or natural, takes its name: Out of His infinite glory, may He give you the power through His Spirit for your hidden self to grow strong, so that Christ may live in your hearts through faith, and then, planted in love and built on love, you will with all the saints have strength to grasp the breadth and the length, the height and the depth; until, knowing the love of Christ, which is beyond all knowledge, you are filled with the utter fullness of God.”
“Glory be to Him whose power, working in us, can do infinitely more than we can ask or imagine; glory be to Him from generation to generation in the Church and in Christ Jesus for ever and ever. Amen.” [Ephesians 3: 14-21]

 

[GoldenArrow]

I think I’ve been misunderstood - or maybe you’ve pointed out the error more clearly.

I don’t believe aborted babies go to Hell.

Because of abortion, I believed that God could reject the soul of a person who has lived his life to a ripe old age who dies in a state of grace. Say this person repents, confesses his sins, receives anointing all “by the book.” I believed that such a person could still be rejected by God even though that person is innocent, according to the laws of the church.

That is to say, God could reject a soul upon a whim. I believed God could “abort” a soul, essentially. That God’s abortion of a soul was a reflection of man’s abortion of the flesh of the unborn.

So … to say that an innocent person who has lived his life from conception to natural death could go to hell is in error in either case, be it that of the unborn (aborted babies) or that of your average joe christian who has died.

I didn’t see it in those terms before.

So, OK. So can God reject a soul upon a whim? I’m talking about a person who was BORN, who has lived his life to natural death. Say that person has done everything “right” and “sincerely.” Can God still reject a soul just because that person was not one of the “chosen.”

Or put it this way: somewhere in the bible Christ (I think. I’m a bit rusty) says a guest was present at some party not wearing a white garment and he got tossed out. So how did that person get IN the party in the first place? Who is he? Obviously, he’s not wanted, but how did he get through the gate??? I’m wondering if God can just reject someone upon a whim.

 

[GoldenArrow]

It is a coldness and a lack of trust indeed, not to believe in the mercy of God who would even in that last instant give that person’s soul the chance to repent of that sin!

I’ve always had an issue with trust. Unfortunately, this is probably an irreversible flaw at this later point in my life. It’s hard to trust when you’re surrounded by morons. I don’t mean any of you. Just certain people in my life!

You know … you ask a certain someone to install a cat door for you and you trust them to do it for you, only to find out they installed the cat door at the TOP of the door instead of the bottom. You have to toss the entire door, yell at them for being an idiot for not marking the bottom of the door BEFORE getting a saw. Or, this same person installs a faucet for you and gets the hot and cold water mixed up and so for years you have one sink that you will struggle with. Or, you ask them to go buy some topsoil for your garden and they return with an entire truckload of soil that’s made of ash that turns into clay when mixed with water making plant growth impossible. You spend an entire summer trying to fix the problem by poking holes in the clay to drain stuff, etc. Oh, this person wants to help out and takes shortcuts, like not covering the laminate floor with tarp BEFORE painting the walls white and you spend YEARS mopping tiny, one millimeter sized paint spatters! Maybe this person does stuff that’s illegal and you wonder if things he’s procured on your behalf might be stolen. Maybe this person also is an alcoholic who smashes drinking glasses in the sink when he doesn’t get his way and maybe you had to kick him out of your house! Maybe this person is a parent. It’s hard to trust when you have spent your life as a babysitter, trying your best to keep your parent from being arrested!!! And maybe having to deal with such a one for the whole of your life has made you a bit crazy yourself and also a control freak.

My fiancee, thank goodness, is a patient man. He regularly reminds me that that he ISN’T that “certain person” and that I don’t really need to be a crazed control freak who thinks all men are morons who make messes of everything.

That felt good to vent. My fiancee also knows how to fix things without breaking ten other things at the same time…

So, OK. That’s why I don’t trust. I do comfort myself, however, with the knowledge that Jesus was a carpenter during his life and hopefully he did good work.

Say someone died in a state of grace with the tendency to lack trust in everything and everyone. Would that person be the man at the party without the white garments?

 

[GoldenArrow]

Also, I would not dare compare the purity of my soul with the purity of the soul of an aborted child. The purity of the latter is much greater.

I don’t think my soul could EVER be as pure as the soul of an aborted child.

 

[GoldenArrow]

Your belief that unbaptized children go to hell was NEVER the teaching of the Church.

Again, to be clear, I agree with you.

I’m talking about a soul who has had personal sin, etc …

 

[Viki63]

As others have stated, and as you yourself have said, your thinking was confused.
Just because human beings commit great evils such as abortion, does not mean God does the same.
God is love, which he showed us in sending his Son to die for our sins. He does not want anyone to die, but everyone to turn from his wickedness and live.
He does not arbitrarily send people to hell.
If you’ve had to deal with crazy-making behavior in your past, no wonder if your thinking is a little confused. You might benefit by talking to a therapist. They can be very good as helping clear up one’s thinking.
God bless.

 

[GoldenArrow]

I have talked with my pastor about some of this stuff. It’s not something that can be solved overnight. It will take a lifetime.

The point is that there is a HOW in all of this. This is one way HOW abortion destroys faith. It can occur on an subconscious level.

I’m actually well educated in the faith and this little “bug” slipped past me and really affected my perceptions. And it is, apparently, a rather simple error and simple heresy to explain.

So … we’ll see.

At least I’m not an Atheist anymore … well … not at the moment.

 

[Petaro]

You have two basic questions in your post. One concerns unbaptized children.
The other concerns the salvation of others who unlike babies, in general have attained the age of reason.

Firstly, your thinking is in error regarding the fate of unbaptized children

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

Paragraph 1261 "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,“64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.”

Even the theory of Limbo which wasn’t ever an official doctrine, did not claim unbaptized babies go to hell.

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION

THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS
WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED*

“It is clear that the traditional teaching on this topic has concentrated on the theory of limbo, understood as a state which includes the souls of infants who die subject to original sin and without baptism, and who, therefore, neither merit the beatific vision, nor yet are subjected to any punishment, because they are not guilty of any personal sin. This theory, elaborated by theologians beginning in the Middle Ages, never entered into the dogmatic definitions of the Magisterium, even if that same Magisterium did at times mention the theory in its ordinary teaching up until the Second Vatican Council. It remains therefore a possible theological hypothesis.”

Being endowed with reason, conscience and freedom, adults are responsible for their own destiny in so far as they accept or reject God’s grace. Infants, however, who do not yet have the use of reason, conscience and freedom, cannot decide for themselves. …Parents experience great grief and feelings of guilt when they do not have the moral assurance of the salvation of their children, and people find it increasingly difficult to accept that God is just and merciful if he excludes infants, who have no personal sins, from eternal happiness, whether they are Christian or non-Christian. From a theological point of view, the development of a theology of hope and an ecclesiology of communion, together with a recognition of the greatness of divine mercy, challenge an unduly restrictive view of salvation. In fact, the universal salvific will of God and the correspondingly universal mediation of Christ mean that all theological notions that ultimately call into question the very omnipotence of God, and his mercy in particular, are inadequate.

1. The idea of Limbo, which the Church has used for many centuries to designate the destiny of infants who die without Baptism, has no clear foundation in revelation, even though it has long been used in traditional theological teaching.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

Your belief that unbatized children go to hell was NEVER the teaching of the Church.

A very wise and well reasoned post.
As a lawyer, legalised abortion is the very proof of the failure of law in a fallen world. I rail against the injustice and pray to God to stop the holocaust. Yet it continues whilst we sip our tea and make small talk about the weather. We Catholics may well be judged on what we did personally to fight this horror, and I can understand your loss of faith. But we condemn the wrong Being, for we are the hands of Christ on this earth. It is our duty to stand up against every abortion mill, every politician, every unjust law. We can eventually only judge ourselves.

As for the fate of aborted babies, miscarried babies or those innocent of sin that have not had the chance to be baptized by water, I believe that Our Loving Father offers all a baptism of desire. How can we worship any other God but the God we know welcomed the little children to come unto Him.
No let your faith not be challenged by abortion; let your role in the church militant be strengthened as surely Christ’s reign will be vindicated by His final victory.

I am a poor sinner, but I would not want to be in the shoes of the abortionists or their supporters.
Find your faith and fight beside His standard against one of our societies’ greatest failures.

 

[Petaro]

I think I’ve been misunderstood - or maybe you’ve pointed out the error more clearly.

I don’t believe aborted babies go to Hell.

Because of abortion, I believed that God could reject the soul of a person who has lived his life to a ripe old age who dies in a state of grace. Say this person repents, confesses his sins, receives anointing all “by the book.” I believed that such a person could still be rejected by God even though that person is innocent, according to the laws of the church.

That is to say, God could reject a soul upon a whim. I believed God could “abort” a soul, essentially. That God’s abortion of a soul was a reflection of man’s abortion of the flesh of the unborn.

So … to say that an innocent person who has lived his life from conception to natural death could go to hell is in error in either case, be it that of the unborn (aborted babies) or that of your average joe christian who has died.

I didn’t see it in those terms before.

So, OK. So can God reject a soul upon a whim? I’m talking about a person who was BORN, who has lived his life to natural death. Say that person has done everything “right” and “sincerely.” Can God still reject a soul just because that person was not one of the “chosen.”

Or put it this way: somewhere in the bible Christ (I think. I’m a bit rusty) says a guest was present at some party not wearing a white garment and he got tossed out. So how did that person get IN the party in the first place? Who is he? Obviously, he’s not wanted, but how did he get through the gate??? I’m wondering if God can just reject someone upon a whim.

The Christ came, suffered died and rose so that ALL should be saved. Your belief that such a God would send a soul to Hell on a whim, goes against every thing we have learnt of Him from the Bible and the Church.
You mention a parable that is not about excluding the good from their salvation.
I was amused about dealing with morons in every day to day exercise. You are not alone. I gave up on tradesmen many years ago. Eternal vigilance is its own reward. Watch what they do like a hawk; put everything in writing; take pictures; study law from an early age and expect nothing good to arise from any dealings with anyone else. You never know, we both might get to the party, but drive yourself; don’t wait for the cab.

 

[GoldenArrow]

Thanks for all the comments.

Please also remember the spirit of the post: That this is a HOW thread. One example of HOW abortion can destroy faith. It can destroy faith in other ways as well.

And keeping that in mind, you may run across this mentality in your evangelizing. Be aware that people can be affected by abortion in hidden and subtle ways.

Yeah, I’ve been a member of NPLA and have signed every pro-life petition that I’ve come across at church. I’ve attended rallies, etc. One very good friend of mine has actually organized rallies and I commend her for that. She has an attractive face and personality and has skill in public speaking and uses those talents well.

I think we’ve all been directly affected by abortion … we just aren’t aware of it. It’s being directly affected via omission. You know … the friend who just isn’t there. Etc …

So yeah, keep up the good discussion. Not much more I can add to it. Thanks.