Abortion - Killing Abortion Doctors

[MH84]

Sorry if this question is a bit immature maybe. But someone humour me.

I dont think an average Catholic would be condemned by another Catholic if he thought the First Crusade was justified (I dont know about the others), but he would be reprimanded if he even thought about physically (violently maybe) stopping an abortion from being carried out?

If the first case is morally okay which was over a piece of land and to prevent a another religion from spreading as well, why wouldnt the second be? Are our morals different now?

 

[larry85704]

Life is so complicated.

I can think of places in the Catechism where stopping the abortion doctor would be called for. Realistically, the threat of violence should be enough to stop the abortion, killing should not be required. But, we live in a nation with rules. We are not supposed to break the rules. Stopping an abortion by violent means is illegal and I tend to think Catholics are not supposed to do illegal acts.

Ultimately, abortion is sin. Sin has been in the world the Church lives in for a long time. Is not God’s message to eliminate sin in your life? Does God tell us to eliminate sin in other peoples lives? I am really sure we would all like to, but doesn’t that violate free will? I is really sad that we have to live in a world with so much sin. I would like to think there will be no sin in heaven. Anybody care to comment on that?

I think sometimes that if the Church really had God’s ear, God would tell the Pope what to do to stop some of the nastier sins, like abortion. But, since this isn’t happening I can assume that stopping abortion is not something God wants to do. Free will is a tough thing.

 

[dmelosi]

The way you write your message, I take it you are saying live and let live. That if someone wants to kill that is none of your concern because God gave the other person free will sowhatever they want to do is ok.

Life is so complicated.

I can think of places in the Catechism where stopping the abortion doctor would be called for. Realistically, the threat of violence should be enough to stop the abortion, killing should not be required. But, we live in a nation with rules. We are not supposed to break the rules. Stopping an abortion by violent means is illegal and I tend to think Catholics are not supposed to do illegal acts.

Ultimately, abortion is sin. Sin has been in the world the Church lives in for a long time. Is not God’s message to eliminate sin in your life? Does God tell us to eliminate sin in other peoples lives? I am really sure we would all like to, but doesn’t that violate free will? I is really sad that we have to live in a world with so much sin. I would like to think there will be no sin in heaven. Anybody care to comment on that?

I think sometimes that if the Church really had God’s ear, God would tell the Pope what to do to stop some of the nastier sins, like abortion. But, since this isn’t happening I can assume that stopping abortion is not something God wants to do. Free will is a tough thing.

 

[Hellisreal]

If the question we are to consider is can one kill an abortionist (and somehow justify it)

what prevents one to ask, why cant we kill the pregnant woman who is electing to have an abortion? We kill her, and there is a chance (although slim- but still a chance) the baby can survive it and live, instead of certainly being killed.

The questions could be limitless. How about killing anyone who engages in perscribing or dispensing birth control (aborciefants -sp?)? Or someone who is taking them?

Well, here is the thing. You have to let justice be God’s.

We can do what we can do to help educate, aid and assist those considering it. We can even try our best to elect people that will make it a criminal activity. We can not play GOD.We can not dispense His Justice for Him thinking we have that authority.

 

[deb1]

I think sometimes that if the Church really had God’s ear, God would tell the Pope what to do to stop some of the nastier sins, like abortion. But, since this isn’t happening I can assume that stopping abortion is not something God wants to do. Free will is a tough thing.

God wants human beings to decide on thier own to end abortion. That does not mean that God doesn’t care about ending abortion. Sadly there will be evil in the world until Christ returns.

Christians have to continue to react to that evil. That’s our duty. WE are called to be a light unto this world.

 

[MH84]

Christians have to continue to react to that evil. That’s our duty. WE are called to be a light unto this world.

I hear this all the time on this forum, and rightly so. But talk is cheap isnt it.

 

[deb1]

I hear this all the time on this forum, and rightly so. But talk is cheap isnt it.

I am uncertain what you mean. If you are saying that people should do as they write on this forum, I agree but considering that we are annoymous to one another, I don’t know how you deduce who is carrying through what they write.

HOnestly, the older I get the more that I realize that I can’t depend on how I feel about issues to determine right or wrong. My emotions tend to go back and forth and I make excuses for myself. I need to have a guage of morality and that is one of the things that religion gives me.

I do try and follow my beliefs, but being human I probably fall short often.

 

[larry85704]

Hello MH84

I hear this all the time on this forum, and rightly so. But talk is cheap isnt it.

Right.

There are so many good Catholics, and I really believe this I am not being sarcastic, that if the Church would up and try to convince us to do something, like the Crusades, a bunch of people would actually go for it. But the Church resorts to prayer, which many people might do, but others think we should do more.

Sadly the Church does nothing until it is forced upon us by an outside agency. Case in point is the way the Church responded to the pedophile priest issue. In my darker moods I think the Church went to Chicago and God stayed in New York. Where is the Holy Ghost of Acts, inspiring the Apostles to all the wonderful things they did. We believe that Jesus is in the Eucharist and yet our Church overflows with sin.

I used to be an Eucharistic Minister, I quit doing it because of the security that was put in place to protect the financial assets of the Church. We are a lawsuit happy bunch. Anyway, my understanding of the changes made to the Church to protect the Church from lawsuits are just that, changes made to cover the old rear end. They are not changes made by inspired Catholics with the guidance of God to do the right thing. Catholics had that chance before lawsuits and threats of jail forced it upon us.

Lawyers and law enforcement have their job, it is not right to blame them. If the Church is messing up blame the Church, or God, or stop saying the Church is messing up. Sadly there is blame for everybody because of sin, except blame for God. Think of it this way, you see abortion as a great sin. Unless you pray for guidance to eliminate that sin, and receive that guidance, what good are your prayers and your faith? Do you really believe that all Churches, not just the Catholic Church, if united to fight the sin of abortion would not prevail? I think they would, just by democratic processes, no violence. All Churches see abortion as a sin, don’t they? But MH84 you got it right, talk is cheap.

 

[MH84]

I am uncertain what you mean. If you are saying that people should do as they write on this forum, I agree but considering that we are annoymous to one another, I don’t know how you deduce who is carrying through what they write.

HOnestly, the older I get the more that I realize that I can’t depend on how I feel about issues to determine right or wrong. My emotions tend to go back and forth and I make excuses for myself. I need to have a guage of morality and that is one of the things that religion gives me.

I do try and follow my beliefs, but being human I probably fall short often.

Sorry if I came across a bit blunt, but Im fairly positive that my quote was against you, though somethimes I dont know whats going on in my head. I dont even know you!

Christians have to continue to react to that evil. That’s our duty. WE are called to be a light unto this world.

Regardless of whether I think that others are saying things they dont mean or do is prejudgemental (is that a word) on my behalf. Im also bitter because I see that I fall far short of what I should be doing (and Im not saying that to draw sympathy).

For instance, only once have I actually prayed with a group outside an abortion clinic. Im not a light in this world for others, maybe more of a reflector, if that.

 

[JRKH]

My theology teacher told us that we can’t walk into an abortion clinic and kill the doctor because the end doesn’t justify the means.

If I see someone on the street being murdered, I can stop it from happening, even if it results in the death of the attacker.

What’s the difference?

Let’s look at the means and the ends.
If you walked in and killed an abortion doctor:

1. How many abortions would you prevent?
2. How would the act be viewed by the voting public?
3. How many women would be encouraged by love of their child to not seek an abortion?

Killing a doctor who performs abortions is only attacking a symptom, and am unimportant symptom at that.
Abortions were performed long before they were legalized. Whether legal or illegal, performed by a doctor or some other person, the practice is ancient. The issues are not with the doctors, or even with the clinics for that matter. Since abortion is legal, they are within their rights to offer it as an option.

This is a moral and scientific dilema that has been ruled on politically. It is one that needs to be attacked in the moral and scientific areas. Once sufficient people are convinced of its horror two things will happen. First the number of abortions will decline and Second there will be greater political will to outlaw the practice.

In point of fact it is not the aborted children who are to be pitied but the mothers, doctors and others who feel it is OK. The children die without having been able to offend God and therefore are with God. The Adults are the ones who have offended God. They are the ones who need our love and prayers.

Peace
James

 

[MH84]

I used to be an Eucharistic Minister, I quit doing it because of the security that was put in place to protect the financial assets of the Church. We are a lawsuit happy bunch. Anyway, my understanding of the changes made to the Church to protect the Church from lawsuits are just that, changes made to cover the old rear end. They are not changes made by inspired Catholics with the guidance of God to do the right thing. Catholics had that chance before lawsuits and threats of jail forced it upon us.

Im not sure I understand this story

Lawyers and law enforcement have their job, it is not right to blame them. If the Church is messing up blame the Church, or God, or stop saying the Church is messing up. Sadly there is blame for everybody because of sin, except blame for God. Think of it this way, you see abortion as a great sin. Unless you pray for guidance to eliminate that sin, and receive that guidance, what good are your prayers and your faith? Do you really believe that all Churches, not just the Catholic Church, if united to fight the sin of abortion would not prevail? I think they would, just by democratic processes, no violence. All Churches see abortion as a sin, don’t they? But MH84 you got it right, talk is cheap.

There is so much I agree with in this post. I think often people want to get involved in their Faith and help out, but maybe when they realise to do this, they need to turn to prayer and fasting etc they are downcast. Maybe even thinking that prayer won’t help. People would rather die for their their faith or beliefs, but often won’t live for it.

Also, we often say that we love God, or that we serve God or that we are called to relect Christ in our lives. But, how often do we say that and dont do anything about it?

Larry, I agree that if Christians were really desperate to end abortion, we could. But we would rather end liturgical abuse first…

 

[MH84]

Let’s look at the means and the ends.
If you walked in and killed an abortion doctor:

1. How many abortions would you prevent?
2. How would the act be viewed by the voting public?
3. How many women would be encouraged by love of their child to not seek an abortion?

I don’t think number two is important, because many actions that apparantly are for the greater good are critisized or thought of as wrong by others (eg war in Iraq, which is approved of by many good Christains)

Killing a doctor who performs abortions is only attacking a symptom, and am unimportant symptom at that.
Abortions were performed long before they were legalized. Whether legal or illegal, performed by a doctor or some other person, the practice is ancient. The issues are not with the doctors, or even with the clinics for that matter. Since abortion is legal, they are within their rights to offer it as an option.

Good point, but I think it doesnt address the issue of the OP. I mean we know that abortion is always wrong dont we. We as Catholics will always refuse to accept abortions. Isnt the doctor about to commit murder?

This is a moral and scientific dilema that has been ruled on politically. It is one that needs to be attacked in the moral and scientific areas. Once sufficient people are convinced of its horror two things will happen. First the number of abortions will decline and Second there will be greater political will to outlaw the practice.

In point of fact it is not the aborted children who are to be pitied but the mothers, doctors and others who feel it is OK. The children die without having been able to offend God and therefore are with God. The Adults are the ones who have offended God. They are the ones who need our love and prayers.

The part that I disagree with is that it is okay for the “innocent to be kill bcause they will go to Heaven anyway”. I too belive that God is especially merciful to the children who havent been baptised. But my opinion is irrelevant if not not useless. In previous centuries I think that the Church always affirmed that there is no salvation outside the Church for those not baptised, hence the theory of Limbo.

Also, your theory seems to think it would be the unborn babies are better to not be allowed to be born incase they sin later.

Sorry to pick at your post. Your post is generally correct in my opinion it just seems that it was the “right thing” to say; the politically correct things to say.

By the way, I know that murder is wrong in all instances, I do not condone it in any way, I hope I would rather die than kill another person. But objectively speaking, I can see how the question in the OP is not a clear cut decision, even though in my heart and soul I know that harming a doctor, even one who performs abortions, is completely worng, sinful and illegal.

 

[larry85704]

Ok, I guess you needed to be there.

Anyway, I went to a meeting for everybody involved in parish ministries. The deacon, who is a nice guy, said if you walk into a house and someone, a child or an old person, tells you they are being abused you are supposed to do your business, walk to your car, and call 911 to report abuse. No exceptions. Now think about that for awhile. Do you see how stupid that is?

I’d go along with calling the pastor, or confronting the homeowner first, but no, that isn’t what we were supposed to do. Let the cops do it. The people that came up with this stupid idea should have cops show up and their door arresting them because they were abusing grandpa. Taking care of the elderly, or children, is hard sometimes. If you thought you were going to be arrested because grandpa, who has the mind of a 4 year old, told his Eucharistic Minister he was abused who would ever take care of grandpa, or better yet, let that crazy (insert appropriate term of enderment here) Eucharistic Minister person in my house?

Hope this clears it up.

 

[MH84]

So you used to visit the elderly to give them Holy Communion?

Werent you advised to use some of your own discretion as well? Eg. if you could tell that the child or elderly person was lying or ill.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Invading abortion clinics to kill the ‘doctors’ is closer to revolution and insurgency than it is to the example of self-defense or shooting someone engaged in a crime. The Just War doctrine has more relevance to this than the theology about self-defence.

If you kill the doctor before the abortion, the procedure will be performed by another doctor because these clinics are protected by the state. You’re going to need a whole army of doctor-killers to make it effective. And if it’s not likely to be effective, it’s wrong.

 

[MH84]

Invading abortion clinics to kill the ‘doctors’ is closer to revolution and insurgency than it is to the example of self-defense or shooting someone engaged in a crime. The Just War doctrine has more relevance to this than the theology about self-defence.

If you kill the doctor before the abortion, the procedure will be performed by another doctor because these clinics are protected by the state. You’re going to need a whole army of doctor-killers to make it effective. And if it’s not likely to be effective, it’s wrong.

Other people on this thread have said that.

In effect arent you are saying that the police shouldnt arrest people because they will probably get out and do more crime.

Also, hypothetically how come its “okay” to invade another country and engage them in war for suspected terrorism, but not an abortion clinic when you actually know whats going on in there?

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
Let’s look at the means and the ends.
If you walked in and killed an abortion doctor:

1. How many abortions would you prevent?
2. How would the act be viewed by the voting public?
3. How many women would be encouraged by love of their child to not seek an abortion?

I don’t think number two is important, because many actions that apparantly are for the greater good are critisized or thought of as wrong by others (eg war in Iraq, which is approved of by many good Christains)

Number 2 is important because it is necessary to have broad public support in order to restrict/outlaw abortion.

Killing a doctor who performs abortions is only attacking a symptom, and am unimportant symptom at that.
Abortions were performed long before they were legalized. Whether legal or illegal, performed by a doctor or some other person, the practice is ancient. The issues are not with the doctors, or even with the clinics for that matter. Since abortion is legal, they are within their rights to offer it as an option.

Good point, but I think it doesnt address the issue of the OP. I mean we know that abortion is always wrong dont we. We as Catholics will always refuse to accept abortions. Isn’t the doctor about to commit murder?

I am sorry if I was not clear. This is directly pointed at the OPs question. We as Catholics know abortion is wrong therefore catholics will not have an abortion. However, a person requesting or performing the abortion may have no compunction at all about it. It may not violate their conscience at all. Thus the act, while abhorent to us, is a non-issue (and non-sinful) in their conscience formation. Therefore the act of killing the abortion doctor would be the act of killing an innocent person.

The task for us is to prevent abortions by the enlightenment not by adding evil.

This is a moral and scientific dilema that has been ruled on politically. It is one that needs to be attacked in the moral and scientific areas. Once sufficient people are convinced of its horror two things will happen. First the number of abortions will decline and Second there will be greater political will to outlaw the practice.

In point of fact it is not the aborted children who are to be pitied but the mothers, doctors and others who feel it is OK. The children die without having been able to offend God and therefore are with God. The Adults are the ones who have offended God. They are the ones who need our love and prayers.

The part that I disagree with is that it is okay for the “innocent to be kill bcause they will go to Heaven anyway”. I too belive that God is especially merciful to the children who havent been baptised. But my opinion is irrelevant if not not useless. In previous centuries I think that the Church always affirmed that there is no salvation outside the Church for those not baptised, hence the theory of Limbo.

I don’t believe I said, or implied that is OK for the “innocent to be killed”. I apologize if it comes across that way. The children are victims. I do not believe that these victims go anywhere but back to God since they were ineligible for baptism. They were not fully formed and thus had not been eligible for baptism. If they are not eligible for for baptism how can they be anything bu pure in the eyes of our God.

Also, your theory seems to think it would be the unborn babies are better to not be allowed to be born incase they sin later.

I think you are taking a pretty long stretch here. Nothing I have said should be construed in this way. All I am trying to do is help others understand the the actual issues of the question. The babies are totally innocent. The adults are most likely malformed in their moral and spiritual thinking.

Sorry to pick at your post. Your post is generally correct in my opinion it just seems that it was the “right thing” to say; the politically correct things to say.

Is something wrong simply becaus it is also “politially correct”?

James

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Other people on this thread have said that.

In effect arent you are saying that the police shouldnt arrest people because they will probably get out and do more crime.

Also, hypothetically how come its “okay” to invade another country and engage them in war for suspected terrorism, but not an abortion clinic when you actually know whats going on in there?

I’m saying that to stop the abortion from taking place, we’ll have to defeat the government that allows it. Otherwise, once you kill the abortion provider, you will be arrested and the abortion will take place at the hands of another abortion ‘doctor’. One of the rules of Just War is that your war has to have a reasonable chance of being successful. So either do it right, overthrow the government, and stop abortion, or don’t do it at all. Just randomly killing a doctor here and there without any plan to seize power is essentially terrorism, which isn’t an allowable form of warfare.

By all means, come up with a just plan to revolt and govern the country in a good way and then you can stop abortion. The revolution may or may not require killing abortion doctors, I have no idea.

Just remember:

In this regard Just War doctrine gives certain conditions for the legitimate exercise of force, all of which must be met:

"1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

1. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

3. there must be serious prospects of success;

1. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition" [CCC 2309].

 

[KathyCatholic]

Abortion is murder. Simple.
.

I agree!

BUT,

It’s not murder in the eyes of the law. And that is what matters.

 

[seekerz]

In my mind, there are many reasons why killing abortion doctors is wrong:

1. Abortion is legal and even if we don’t agree with the law, we can’t prevent people from operation within it’s limits. In other words it’s not justified to punish someone for not living according to my morals.
2. Even if abortion were not legal, there would be legal processes in place to deal with the perpetrators so we would still not be justified in taking the law into our own hands.
3. The guilt of abortion lies not just on the doctor but on those requesting it, those creating the environment that encourage/pressure people to request it, etc…