Abortion - Killing Abortion Doctors

[deb1]

Perhaps we can look at the early Christians as an example of how to behave toward Abortionists. The Romans used to leave unwanted babies out to die of exposure. The early Christians did not kill Roman fathers in an attempt to save the lives of these innocents. But over time the practice has stopped because Christains were able to convince the general population that this was a barbaric practice.

Why can’t we do the same with abortion?

 

[PeteZaHut]

We watched an abortion video in theology class the other day that was the most horrific thing I have ever seen. I have never been pro-choice, but I never really realized just how awful abortion is either. I think if somehow that video could be aired on television, it could seriously change the public’s view on abortion. I am going to ask my teacher what the video is, and then I am planning to write to a bunch of television channels. Hopefully, there is some channel out there that is somewhat Christian. Do you all think this is a good or bad idea and would you write to them along with me?

 

[MH84]

We watched an abortion video in theology class the other day that was the most horrific thing I have ever seen. I have never been pro-choice, but I never really realized just how awful abortion is either. I think if somehow that video could be aired on television, it could seriously change the public’s view on abortion. I am going to ask my teacher what the video is, and then I am planning to write to a bunch of television channels. Hopefully, there is some channel out there that is somewhat Christian. Do you all think this is a good or bad idea and would you write to them along with me?

I hope you can get one of the mainline channels to show this. Let us know if you het a response.

P.S. I dont live in the US, but am willing to email some channel there I suppose, but I need more details on the documentary and the other info you are going to provide.

 

[MH84]

1. Abortion is legal and even if we don’t agree with the law, we can’t prevent people from operation within it’s limits. In other words it’s not justified to punish someone for not living according to my morals …

Good point.

Just to be an annoyance:
What if someone knows better than what is said in the law(like us Catholics)? Are we still obliged to follow the law?

 

[seekerz]

Good point.

Just to be an annoyance:
What if someone knows better than what is said in the law(like us Catholics)? Are we still obliged to follow the law?

No, but we are still obliged to allow others to live within the law. In the case of abortion, that means even if we have legal permission to perform or request one, we won’t do it.

We can’t set up an alternate justice system, we have to live within the bounds of what exists even while fighting to change it.

Which is why I disagree with calling someone who has/performs an abortion, a murderer. Not only is it counterproductive, but in a strictly legal sense this statement would also be untrue.

 

[dmelosi]

I have to disagree with part of what you say.

A murderer is a murderer. To say it is anything else is just making it easier for those on the fence to also fall into the abortion is not murder trap, which keeps dumbing down the issue.

No, but we are still obliged to allow others to live within the law. In the case of abortion, that means even if we have legal permission to perform or request one, we won’t do it.

We can’t set up an alternate justice system, we have to live within the bounds of what exists even while fighting to change it.

Which is why I disagree with calling someone who has/performs an abortion, a murderer. Not only is it counterproductive, but in a strictly legal sense this statement would also be untrue.

 

[JRKH]

I have to disagree with part of what you say.

A murderer is a murderer. To say it is anything else is just making it easier for those on the fence to also fall into the abortion is not murder trap, which keeps dumbing down the issue.

(From Wikipedia)
Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought by another. Murder is generally distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of malice aforethought and the lack of lawful justification. All jurisdictions, ancient and modern, consider it a most serious crime.

One cannot call a person a murderer who has not violated the law.

Part of the problem with the whole abortion debate is that people try to change the law instead of the heart.

James

 

[dmelosi]

Just so I understand your reasoning…since it was not against the German law for the Germans to kill the Jews, it was not murder?

The biggest problem with the abortion debate is that people dont think it is murder.

(From Wikipedia)
Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought by another. Murder is generally distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of malice aforethought and the lack of lawful justification. All jurisdictions, ancient and modern, consider it a most serious crime.

One cannot call a person a murderer who has not violated the law.

Part of the problem with the whole abortion debate is that people try to change the law instead of the heart.

James

 

[anamchara]

My theology teacher told us that we can’t walk into an abortion clinic and kill the doctor because the end doesn’t justify the means.

If I see someone on the street being murdered, I can stop it from happening, even if it results in the death of the attacker.

What’s the difference?

Holy Lord please seek help.

 

[estesbob]

(From Wikipedia)
Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought by another. Murder is generally distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of malice aforethought and the lack of lawful justification. All jurisdictions, ancient and modern, consider it a most serious crime.

One cannot call a person a murderer who has not violated the law.

Part of the problem with the whole abortion debate is that people try to change the law instead of the heart.

James

No-the problem with the abortion debate is that too many people believe that kiiling children is acceptable until everyone agrees that killing children is not acceptable. Meanwhile the children continue to die.

 

[MH84]

One cannot call a person a murderer who has not violated the law.

Part of the problem with the whole abortion debate is that people try to change the law instead of the heart.

I dont get what you mean by the last sentence.

Jesus was murdered (killed unjustly), but according to you murder does not occur if its “lawful”. Pilate gave permission did he not, so technically it was legal, (although He was falsely accused at the council)?

 

[repo_man]

I used to be in favor of the death penalty. However, my understanding of the conditions in prison has led me to believe that in some cases, capital punishment would be giving the criminal a pass compared to a hellish existance in the prison environment. Never having experienced such an existance, I can only go from what I’ve heard, read and seen on TV, which admittedly may be inaccurate.

i think that’s the wrong reason to be against the death penalty …

 

[Brendan]

I dont get what you mean by the last sentence.

Jesus was murdered (killed unjustly), but according to you murder does not occur if its “lawful”. Pilate gave permission did he not, so technically it was legal, (although He was falsely accused at the council)?

The ‘law’ Catholics are concerned with is the Universal Moral Law, not necessarily civil law.

Pilates (or Hitler’s) permission has no bearing on if the murder was unlawful.

Likewise, abortion is murder, regardless of the civil legalities of it.

BTW, I ran this one past my Moral Theology professor. It actually IS justified for a Catholic to use whatever means are necessary to protect the life of a person they are responsible for.

The specific case we discussed was a father protecting their child against an attacker. Both the CCC and Evangelicam Vitae provide for defense of that child, even to the point, if necessary, of the attacker’s death.

When we took that a bit further, and asked if that would also apply to a father of a child defending their unborn child from an abortionist, the Moral Theology prof agreed that the case was the same.

But such Catholic defense only applies to those to who you have charge over ( family), unless one is a member of the State and is given charge over the populace ( police or military)

So an indiviual Catholic cannot use such defense unless it is their own child being so attacked.

 

[JRKH]

Gee, I didn’t think that simply providing a definition would ellicit so many responses.

Before attempting to respond to the individual posts just let me say that I am opposed to abortion.

Just so I understand your reasoning…since it was not against the German law for the Germans to kill the Jews, it was not murder?

The biggest problem with the abortion debate is that people dont think it is murder.

It is difficult to answer that question since I am not aware of the laws in Germany at that time. However, assuming that the killers were functioning within the framework of valid laws then it was not murder UNDER GERMAN LAW.
You will note that when the western allies entered Germany they changed the laws. The Germans at Nuremburg were not tried for breaking German Laws they were tried for Crimes against humanity.

No-the problem with the abortion debate is that too many people believe that kiiling children is acceptable until everyone agrees that killing children is not acceptable. Meanwhile the children continue to die.

My point exactly. The only way to get the laws changed is to convince enough people that abortion is wrong. Until the “Heart” is changed, the law will not change.

*Me:
Part of the problem with the whole abortion debate is that people try to change the law instead of the heart. *

Response:
I dont get what you mean by the last sentence.

Jesus was murdered (killed unjustly), but according to you murder does not occur if its “lawful”. Pilate gave permission did he not, so technically it was legal, (although He was falsely accused at the council)?

Let me ask a question. Does anyone here think that abortions started when the law was changed?
Abortions have been performed illegally for centuries. So changing the law will not stop abortions it will only make it harder to get one.
On the other hand no one who believes abortion to be wrong will get one. Therefore if everyone believes abortions are wrong, then none would be performed.
Changing the Law is one step but it is the least important one.

The ‘law’ Catholics are concerned with is the Universal Moral Law, not necessarily civil law.

Pilates (or Hitler’s) permission has no bearing on if the murder was unlawful.

Likewise, abortion is murder, regardless of the civil legalities of it

.

Abortion is Murder under the moral law that Catholics live by. It is not Murder under civil law.
The post by seekerz which prompted my posting the definition stated the issue very well. He said:

No, but we are still obliged to allow others to live within the law. In the case of abortion, that means even if we have legal permission to perform or request one, we won’t do it.

We can’t set up an alternate justice system, we have to live within the bounds of what exists even while fighting to change it.

Which is why I disagree with calling someone who has/performs an abortion, a murderer. Not only is it counterproductive, but in a strictly legal sense this statement would also be untrue.

This states the argument about as eloquently as possible.

Quit looking at the law as the culprit and start looking at the people involved. Love them and work to change their hearts.

James

 

[dmelosi]

We are sure on the same page about abortion being wrong.

Arguing that it is anything less than murder will continue to erode that fact which will then make it harder and harder to reverse the hearts and minds of people.

Do you think it is harder to convince people that murder is wrong or the dumbed down fact of what many people call abortion.

It is what it is.

I just dont know where peope come up with the assumption that those that call it murder are not also trying to change the hearts and minds of people.

Of course we all know we have to do that, but calling it anything less than what it is…murder…simply makes that a gray argument for many.

Do you realize that you said that you are not sure if the holocaust was murder or not?

 

[JRKH]

We are sure on the same page about abortion being wrong.

Arguing that it is anything less than murder will continue to erode that fact which will then make it harder and harder to reverse the hearts and minds of people.

Do you think it is harder to convince people that murder is wrong or the dumbed down fact of what many people call abortion.

It is what it is.

I just dont know where peope come up with the assumption that those that call it murder are not also trying to change the hearts and minds of people.

Of course we all know we have to do that, but calling it anything less than what it is…murder…simply makes that a gray argument for many.

**Do you realize that you said that you are not sure if the holocaust was murder or not?/**QUOTE]

I said no such thing!
I take great care in writing my posts and responses. I do not appreciate it when people post things they “think” I said. If you are unclear about something, by all means ask for carification. Do not try to tell me what I said unless you can quote it.

What you got from my post is your reading of it.
I merely pointed out that there was a difference between what the Nazi’s were doing under their laws which was “Legal” and what the Allies tried them for which was “Illegal”.
The Nazi’s were tried by international tribunal for violating rules of war and crimes against humanity. They were not tried in German courts for violating German laws.
Of course the Holocaust was wrong. Abortion is wrong too. but when you are trying to win the hearts and minds of others it is more productive to draw them toward a goal with love than to push them with accusations and name calling.

When discussing these kinds of issues with people it is critical that everyone is using the same language framework. Accusing someone of murder without this basic understanding of moral vs civil law and the definitions therein will only make matters worse.

Peace

James

 

[dmelosi]

I do not mean to be unkind, I apologize if I came across like that.

but here is your post

Quote:
Just so I understand your reasoning…since it was not against the German law for the Germans to kill the Jews, it was not murder?

The biggest problem with the abortion debate is that people dont think it is murder.
It is difficult to answer that question since I am not aware of the laws in Germany at that time. However, assuming that the killers were functioning within the framework of valid laws then it was not murder UNDER GERMAN LAW.
You will note that when the western allies entered Germany they changed the laws. The Germans at Nuremburg were not tried for breaking German Laws they were tried for Crimes against humanity.
You said it is difficult to answer that question whether it is murder or not, this is a quote.

 

[dmelosi]

As I read this a second time…I realize that you are assuming that I call people a murderer when I talk about this. I think there are very few that do that although I would not argue that point with the accusers.

But when people go to places for advice or guidance such as this forum and see that some argue that it is less than murder, it makes it easier for them to make the wrong choice.

You also make the statement that if people thought it was wrong that they wouldn’t do it. I disagree completely with that. I think that MOST do know it is wrong yet do it anyhow for selfish reasons. There will be fewer people have an abortion if they think it is murder. Arguing that it is not will help many justify it.

dmelosi;3012588:

We are sure on the same page about abortion being wrong.

Arguing that it is anything less than murder will continue to erode that fact which will then make it harder and harder to reverse the hearts and minds of people.

Do you think it is harder to convince people that murder is wrong or the dumbed down fact of what many people call abortion.

It is what it is.

I just dont know where peope come up with the assumption that those that call it murder are not also trying to change the hearts and minds of people.

Of course we all know we have to do that, but calling it anything less than what it is…murder…simply makes that a gray argument for many.

Do you realize that you said that you are not sure if the holocaust was murder or not?/

QUOTE]

I said no such thing!
I take great care in writing my posts and responses. I do not appreciate it when people post things they “think” I said. If you are unclear about something, by all means ask for carification. Do not try to tell me what I said unless you can quote it.

What you got from my post is your reading of it.
I merely pointed out that there was a difference between what the Nazi’s were doing under their laws which was “Legal” and what the Allies tried them for which was “Illegal”.
The Nazi’s were tried by international tribunal for violating rules of war and crimes against humanity. They were not tried in German courts for violating German laws.
Of course the Holocaust was wrong. Abortion is wrong too. but when you are trying to win the hearts and minds of others it is more productive to draw them toward a goal with love than to push them with accusations and name calling.

When discussing these kinds of issues with people it is critical that everyone is using the same language framework. Accusing someone of murder without this basic understanding of moral vs civil law and the definitions therein will only make matters worse.

Peace

James

 

[JRKH]

I do not mean to be unkind, I apologize if I came across like that.

but here is your post

Quote:
Just so I understand your reasoning…since it was not against the German law for the Germans to kill the Jews, it was not murder?

The biggest problem with the abortion debate is that people dont think it is murder.
It is difficult to answer that question since I am not aware of the laws in Germany at that time. However, assuming that the killers were functioning within the framework of valid laws then it was not murder UNDER GERMAN LAW.
You will note that when the western allies entered Germany they changed the laws. The Germans at Nuremburg were not tried for breaking German Laws they were tried for Crimes against humanity.

And it is a difficult question to answer when you don’t know the framework of the origional question.

Your origional point was as follows:

Just so I understand your reasoning…since it was not against the German law for the Germans to kill the Jews, it was not murder?

If I look strictly at the wording of your post and the definition given by Wikipedia then, within the framework of civil law, the answer is no, the killing of the Jews was not murder. That does not mean that the laws were right, or that those responsible for the laws were right. It only means that under the existing laws it was legal, not right but legal.

If you are raising a moral definition of murder in a civil law discussion you will invariably have misunderstanding.
Just look at us. We agree that abortion is wrong yet we argue over the semantics of it. How much more difficult will it be if you are having this discussion with someone who does not share our framework of moral law?

James

 

[estesbob]

If you are raising a moral definition of murder in a civil law discussion you will invariably have misunderstanding.
Just look at us.** We agree that abortion is wrong yet we argue over the semantics of it**. How much more difficult will it be if you are having this discussion with someone who does not share our framework of moral law?

James

I agree. I never refer to abortion as murder as it invaribaley turns the discussion into an arguments about what murder is.