Abortion: Liberty or Tyranny

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We all declare for liberty; but in using the same word we do not all mean the same thing. With some the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while with others, the same word many mean for some men to do as they please with other men, and the product of other men’s labor. Here are two, not only different, but incompatible things, called by the same name - liberty. And it follows that each of the things is, by the respective parties, called by two different and incompatible names - liberty and tyranny.
– Abraham Lincoln; Source:April 18, 1864 - Address at Sanitary Fair, Baltimore, Maryland
As I’ve read and reread the Constitution over the past few years, I’ve often been at odds with Lincoln’s legacy as a great President. His use of violence to keep the south part of the union seemed to me an excuse to increase the power of the federal government at the expense of individual liberty. Because of the above quote, among other things, I’ve changed my mind. It is a short, but powerful argument. If a shared morality among our citizens is necessary to maintain individual liberty, and I believe it is, as did our founding fathers, then Lincoln was correct in his choice to use violence to secure individual liberty for all Americans. A shared morality is absolutely necessary for the preservation of individual rights as understood by the architects of our Declaration of Independence. While I am a firm believer in the 10th Amendment, individual liberty must take priority over states’ rights. If a large group of Americans, through the democratic process, decide to deny rights to a segment of the population, then violence must be used to restore individual liberty, and the offending shift in morality suppressed. Should that violence be a last resort, should it be our first response, or should it happen at all?

If this argument is applied to the abortion argument, it gets down right scary. One side, or the other, is wrong, and it is a question of morals. Does a woman’s right to privacy, and freedom to choose her lifestyle, trump an infant’s right to live? Who gets priority? Is abortion a question of individual rights?

Any thoughts?
 
Remember, the civil war wasn’t about slavery, it was about states’ rights. I wonder if abortion will end the same way slavery did. Or maybe not. Hmmm…

Violence might not be such a good way to end this though. Blacks were still treated terribly after slavery was officially over. I like to think that since Jesus toppled great Rome with love from the inside out, and changed the world so dramatically, that we can do a similar thing when it comes to fighting abortion.
 
Remember, the civil war wasn’t about slavery, it was about states’ rights. I wonder if abortion will end the same way slavery did. Or maybe not. Hmmm…
Yes, but those states’ rights were about the states’ rights to have slaves. Read the literature and press reports from the 20 year period leading up to the war. Read Lincoln’s comments in my first posting. There is no doubt that the Civil War was primarily about slavery. And slavery was ended through violence. Was that violence morally acceptable? I think it was.
Violence might not be such a good way to end this though. Blacks were still treated terribly after slavery was officially over. I like to think that since Jesus toppled great Rome with love from the inside out, and changed the world so dramatically, that we can do a similar thing when it comes to fighting abortion.
I know the Church has told us to resist abortion peacefully. But, what if a majority of our informed citizenry decided that because of ‘overpopulation’, or ‘resource depletion’, or ‘carbon poisoning’ our atmosphere, that all children, age 2 and under’ must be euthanized - for the good of the planet, of course. I mean, we have to be good stewards of the God’s creation. Where do we draw the line?

Now, I am being somewhat facetious. But remember what happened to the Armenians, the Cambodians, the Russians, the Jews, the Vietnamese; all in the last hundred years. And don’t forget what is currently happening in China and N Korea. There are those in this country who can, and do justify killing children, the elderly, the mentally deficient, the physically deficient, all in the name of building a more humane society.

When does violence against such evil become justified?
 
Yes, but those states’ rights were about the states’ rights to have slaves. Read the literature and press reports from the 20 year period leading up to the war. Read Lincoln’s comments in my first posting. There is no doubt that the Civil War was primarily about slavery. And slavery was ended through violence. Was that violence morally acceptable? I think it was
It was actually less to do about the right to own slaves and more about the federal government’s ability to tax and allow representation. The 3/5ths Compromise and the Missouri Compromise were both examples of this. The question of states’ rights to decide slavery was never brought up. The Missouri Compromise allowed a free state and a slave state to maintain the status quo in Congress to keep representative balance instead of margianlizing one over the other. The fact that slaves were central to most of the policies being questioned has led to the over-simplification about the causes of the civil war. Lincoln himself did not intend to free any slaves, and the slaves that were freed by the Emancipation Proclamation were only southern slaves. Slaves in the border states (Maryland, West Virginia, etc.) were still slaves until formally emancipated by Congress at a later date.

As to the OP’s original question concerning abortion, it is tyranny if and only if the abortion is forced. So long as one has the choice to not have an abortion, tyranny only exists in the form of the mother and the doctor choosing to end the life of the unborn. And even then, it is not tyranny, it is murder and the two are very different things. Tyranny is tyranny if it applies to the whole of the affected population. The federal government’s position on abortion is more akin to indifference than tyranny.
 
The civil war was also about cultural divisions between the North and South. Those divisions still exist today with the North regarding the South as ignorant, rural, and backward degenerates. The South regards the North and heavy urban centers as filled with haughty, academic, elitist, and irreligious fools. Slavery and federal influence were flashpoints for this cultural clash.

Of course, many of the soldiers on both sides were there for one thing: 3 hots and a cot. Okay, that four things.
 
Yes, but those states’ rights were about the states’ rights to have slaves. Read the literature and press reports from the 20 year period leading up to the war. Read Lincoln’s comments in my first posting. There is no doubt that the Civil War was primarily about slavery. And slavery was ended through violence. Was that violence morally acceptable? I think it was.
The issue of slavery during the Civil War, though, did not become a moral one well into the Civil War. It started as a legal issue, focused primarily on states rights, and was manipulated into a moral one as support for the war in the north began to shift. Even the Emancipation Proclamation, which many Americans hold in a very high light, was used as a political move. It only freed the slaves in the south, while the slaves in he border states, which remained in the Union, were still slaves. This was done to make the radical republicans happy, but also keep the border states from seceding.
I know the Church has told us to resist abortion peacefully. But, what if a majority of our informed citizenry decided that because of ‘overpopulation’, or ‘resource depletion’, or ‘carbon poisoning’ our atmosphere, that all children, age 2 and under’ must be euthanized - for the good of the planet, of course. I mean, we have to be good stewards of the God’s creation. Where do we draw the line?
It would be a rather fruitless revolt. A minority group of people would never be able to overcome the military and the majority. Additionally, this would never happen because it’s in violation of the 14th Amendment. In terms of abortion, most people would never tolerate any type of revolt. Even the killing of abortionist is typically condemned by the pro-life camps because it is never fruitful. The reason the Civil War was successful was because it was not fought over a moral issue, but a legal one.
Now, I am being somewhat facetious. But remember what happened to the Armenians, the Cambodians, the Russians, the Jews, the Vietnamese; all in the last hundred years. And don’t forget what is currently happening in China and N Korea. There are those in this country who can, and do justify killing children, the elderly, the mentally deficient, the physically deficient, all in the name of building a more humane society.
We should actively oppose the horrors of these countries. Invading countries, though, doesn’t usually solve the problems, but creates more.
When does violence against such evil become justified?
Violence, as example such as Gandhi, MLK, etc show, is rarely fruitful in contrast to active, peaceful protest. What I mean is if pro-life advocates expect to see change, they must not only protest, but also be active in finding ways to support pregnant women and decrease the number of abortions.
 
The belief that Lincoln was a great president is a farce. Lincoln actually favored a different amendment - one that would have permitted slavery where it already existed. The south seceded from the union because they were getting fleeced in taxes. Lincoln - the father of the modern Republican party - actually was in favor of a very strong federal government at the expense of states rights.
 
My post and questions had nothing to do with the legality, morality, or politics of the civil war. Abraham Lincoln did not mention the civil war in his words above. I used slavery, and the violence used to end it, as an allegory to our current abortion problem. Abraham Lincoln used his words above to demonstrate that a shared morality is absolutely necessary for the country to survive. You can’t have half the country calling an act liberty and the other half calling it tyranny. That is exactly what is happening today; half the country considers abortion a legitimate exercise in women’s rights, the other half considers it murder.

I’ll repeat my premise, “If a large group of Americans, through the democratic process, decide to deny rights to a segment of the population, then violence must be used to restore individual liberty, and the offending shift in morality suppressed.” Is not the destruction of a human fetus murder, is it not a violation of the child’s right to life, is it not a deprivation of the child’s individual liberty? Is not the murder of 50 million children the violent suppression of a class of people. Is it not as vile as slavery?

Now, I am not saying that Christianity must be defended with the sword. I am saying individual liberty must be defended with the sword. Abortion is simply the first step in a tyrannical, but democratic struggle to end individual liberty. The fact that the US citizenry no longer have a shared morality makes this struggle extremely important to the survival of our nation. This is not only a question of Christian morality, it is a question of commitment to the idea of individual liberty.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. … God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.
– Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787
 
My post and questions had nothing to do with the legality, morality, or politics of the civil war. Abraham Lincoln did not mention the civil war in his words above. I used slavery, and the violence used to end it, as an allegory to our current abortion problem. Abraham Lincoln used his words above to demonstrate that a shared morality is absolutely necessary for the country to survive. You can’t have half the country calling an act liberty and the other half calling it tyranny. That is exactly what is happening today; half the country considers abortion a legitimate exercise in women’s rights, the other half considers it murder.

I’ll repeat my premise, “If a large group of Americans, through the democratic process, decide to deny rights to a segment of the population, then violence must be used to restore individual liberty, and the offending shift in morality suppressed.” Is not the destruction of a human fetus murder, is it not a violation of the child’s right to life, is it not a deprivation of the child’s individual liberty? Is not the murder of 50 million children the violent suppression of a class of people. Is it not as vile as slavery?

Now, I am not saying that Christianity must be defended with the sword. I am saying individual liberty must be defended with the sword. Abortion is simply the first step in a tyrannical, but democratic struggle to end individual liberty. The fact that the US citizenry no longer have a shared morality makes this struggle extremely important to the survival of our nation. This is not only a question of Christian morality, it is a question of commitment to the idea of individual liberty.
You can use slavery as an allegory if you wish, but Lincoln’s reasons for war were NOT directly related to slavery, hence the allegory falls flat in my opinion.
 
Regarding the Civil war, seriously… the union was attacked by the south, exactly what response do you expect?
 
Now, I am not saying that Christianity must be defended with the sword. I am saying individual liberty must be defended with the sword. Abortion is simply the first step in a tyrannical, but democratic struggle to end individual liberty. The fact that the US citizenry no longer have a shared morality makes this struggle extremely important to the survival of our nation. This is not only a question of Christian morality, it is a question of commitment to the idea of individual liberty.
The problem with violence in handling abortion is it is not fruitful. Any violence against abortion providers has only been destructive for the pro-life cause, not fruitful As I stated earlier, the best way to handle abortion would be through active, peaceful protest.
 
My post and questions had nothing to do with the legality, morality, or politics of the civil war. Abraham Lincoln did not mention the civil war in his words above. I used slavery, and the violence used to end it, as an allegory to our current abortion problem. Abraham Lincoln used his words above to demonstrate that a shared morality is absolutely necessary for the country to survive. You can’t have half the country calling an act liberty and the other half calling it tyranny. That is exactly what is happening today; half the country considers abortion a legitimate exercise in women’s rights, the other half considers it murder.

I’ll repeat my premise, “If a large group of Americans, through the democratic process, decide to deny rights to a segment of the population, then violence must be used to restore individual liberty, and the offending shift in morality suppressed.” Is not the destruction of a human fetus murder, is it not a violation of the child’s right to life, is it not a deprivation of the child’s individual liberty? Is not the murder of 50 million children the violent suppression of a class of people. Is it not as vile as slavery?

Now, I am not saying that Christianity must be defended with the sword. I am saying individual liberty must be defended with the sword. Abortion is simply the first step in a tyrannical, but democratic struggle to end individual liberty. The fact that the US citizenry no longer have a shared morality makes this struggle extremely important to the survival of our nation. This is not only a question of Christian morality, it is a question of commitment to the idea of individual liberty.
Jesus teaches us; “To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt.” (Lk 6:29)

As Catholics, we can never initiate violence to solve a problem. It is only a LAST RESORT when all other means have failed to defend against an aggressor.

The Catechism teaches us about violence and war;

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
  • the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
  • all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
  • there must be serious prospects of success;
  • the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good. (CCC 2309)

**While slavery was a horrible evil, over 600,000 died in the Civil War to gain the slaves freedom.

We must overcome the grave evil of abortion as Jesus overcame evil, using the Truth in a strong, uncompromising and peaceful manner, with love and compassion!
**
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
While slavery was a horrible evil, over 600,000 died in the Civil War to gain the slaves freedom.
Which is worse; 600,000 dead, or slavery? I’m not sure I agree that 600,000 died just to free the slaves. I believe that 600,000 died to deliver the chance of liberty to every American. I believe that 600,000 died to suppress an offensive morality that ultimately threatened every American’s liberty, not just the southern black’s.
We must overcome the grave evil of abortion as Jesus overcame evil, using the Truth in a strong, uncompromising and peaceful manner, with love and compassion!
I accept the Pope’s judgement on peacefully standing firm against abortion. But when the act of abortion becomes so prevalent that its offensive morality begins to threathen the survival of liberty, that its rationale threatens to expand to the elderly, the imperfect, and even young children, the use of the sword is justified. Jesus did not call us to be pacifists, and the Church doesn’t either.

I do not advocate violence against the abortion evil, … yet, there is a line that must not be crossed. China has crossed that line with it’s one child policy and forced abortions. I pray that we do not get too close.
 
The problem with violence in handling abortion is it is not fruitful. Any violence against abortion providers has only been destructive for the pro-life cause, not fruitful As I stated earlier, the best way to handle abortion would be through active, peaceful protest.
You are correct in the present situation, but what happens if the abortion elitist decide to militantly, but democratically enforce a one child per family rule, to save us from ourselves, of course. Are you going to pull a Gandi when they come for your pregnant wife?
 
The belief that Lincoln was a great president is a farce. Lincoln actually favored a different amendment - one that would have permitted slavery where it already existed. The south seceded from the union because they were getting fleeced in taxes. Lincoln - the father of the modern Republican party - actually was in favor of a very strong federal government at the expense of states rights.
I used to feel the same way you do. I grew up in small town in central Georgia. But then I began to read the literature from the civil war era. I read Abraham Lincoln’s own words about the civil war. Just like most of us, our fathers and founding fathers, he was not a perfect man, and maybe he could have done some things differently, but he was not evil or calculating. If the south had not fired the first shots would there have even been a civil war?
 
You are correct in the present situation, but what happens if the abortion elitist decide to militantly, but democratically enforce a one child per family rule, to save us from ourselves, of course. Are you going to pull a Gandi when they come for your pregnant wife?
If that would happen, the pro-abortion choice crowd lose their argument. The main focus is on reproductive freedoms and the right of privacy. A “one child” rule would be a clear violation of the core of their argument. Based on this logic, I don’t see that happening. Also, this ask to many “what if” questions. We need to focus on the present if we wish to change anything.
 
The problem is not a “shared” morality, but recognition that morals have to reflect truth in order to have any meaning, and from that, where truth comes from.

Our Founders lived under a system where morality was dictated by a King. They saw first hand what happens when a single man, helped by some advisers perhaps, gets to decide what is right and wrong for everyone else. It ends up being a matter of how moral the man is himself. Sadly, history teaches us that ultimate power corrupts ultimately, as seen in the Roman Caesars, Egyptian Pharaohs, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, and every other despot throughout the story of our world.

What the Founders wrote in our Declaration of Independence was not something they just thought up. Much of it comes from philosophers and writers like John Locke and others of his era that expound on the importance of elevating morality into a divine and out of the hands of men who may or not be or become corrupt. These Founding Fathers understood, being victims of despotic laws, the vital need to place morality as a central core belief in the hands of God and God only.

“That they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights…”

This document was not just written as a philosophical/theological exercise; it was written to dissuade the other European monarchies from automatically rushing to the aid of Britain’s monarch as was the custom among monarchs. A threat to the lawful rule of one was a threat to all of them, or so it was commonly accepted. By placing the core of morality (rights in this case) into the hands of the Creator, then listing tens of examples where a lawful sitting king was violating God’s basic given rights, it placed those other monarchies in the position to choose between God or King George III. And we all know what they chose.

Today is a different situation. We no longer respect that source of morality as a core belief. For example, in the late 1700s, Blackstone’s Commentaries (on the law), a primer that anyone studying the law would have to read and know, taught that there were two kinds of laws: laws given by God, and laws made by man. Man was free to make laws provided that they did not negate or interfere with the God given laws. A legislature then is NOT free to make a law making murder lawful since God’s law forbids it.

When society turns secular and turns from a central belief in God to a belief that man is capable of filling God’s shoes through man’s own reason and thought, you end up back with the despot making the laws AND the morality. This is perhaps personified in the often said words of our current majority political party - “Hey, we won!” Be extension, they mean “we get to make all the rules, and we are free to chose what to consider and what not to consider.” Now we’re back in the days of the Herods… all we can do is wonder if the next Herod will be more or less oppressive than the current ones.

The last survey I read stated 84% of the population did not support abortion on demand. If that be even close to the truth, why then do we still have abortion on demand right up to the final trimester in some cases? Over 60% favor prayer in schools - how come we don’t have it? Answer: morality isn’t thought to be above man anymore, but trusted to people who win elections. They decide the morality of not offending is more important than a freedom and freedom is slain on the spot. Or they decide in another situation offense to some doesn’t override perceived “rights.” Welcome to chaos! It will continue until we fall apart, just as Jesus himself said (and Lincoln repeated) about a house divided against itself.

The only way to stop it is to reestablish a standard of Truth and thereby morality. Our Founders used the tenets of Christianity as that moral compass. Their vision was that Americans would always hold those dear even if their personal faith was something else. That’s why their writings include statements like “Religion is the only solid basis of good morals. Therefore, education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man toward God.” Who said that? Gouvenor Morris, the man who’s penmanship you see in reproductions of the authentic US Constitution. He was the one who actually, physically, wrote it on paper. I’d say he’d qualify as an expert witness on what the Founders intended.

Some of the Founders themselves went around speaking IN schools about the importance of a Christian moral sense. Samuel Johnson, signer of the Constitution and first President of Columbia College spoke this to one graduating high school class:

“You this day, gentlemen, have received a public education, the purpose whereof has been to qualify you better to serve your Creator and your country.”

“Your first great duties, if you are sensible, are those you owe to heaven, to your Creator, and to your redeemer. Let these be ever present to your mind, and be exemplified in your life and your conduct.”

For the next twenty minutes he went through specific Bible verse after specific Bible verse. It was more of a sermon than what we would think of as a graduation speech. It’s important to note this was done by a man who was there, who signed the Constitution. If it was so clear the intent was a totally secular government, why did he do that? If his actions were an aberration against what the Constitution meant, why was he not set upon with criticism by the other signers? He wasn’t because many of them did the same thing.

Bet you won’t hear that in any history class in a public school today.

Truth isn’t allowed anymore because it might make someone uncomfortable or feel left out, or, heaven forbid, offend them.
 
The problem is not a “shared” morality, but recognition that morals have to reflect truth in order to have any meaning, and from that, where truth comes from. …
Excellent point, in fact, it is brilliant! I enjoyed your post. I will make more comments later
 
… Truth isn’t allowed anymore because it might make someone uncomfortable or feel left out, or, heaven forbid, offend them.
But doesn’t the lack of truth in our political discourse equate to lack of morality, at least Christian morality.

The point is, in the words of MLK, and I paraphrase, “an attack on liberty anywhere is an attack on liberty everywhere.” The ability to obtain an abortion may be a form of freedom for some, but it is an attack on the life of a human being, and an attack on everyone’s liberty.

The destruction of liberty is the connerstone of tyranny.

By the way, I enjoyed your post very, very much.
 
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