Abortion rates same, regardless of legal status

[mapleoak]

More garbage spewing from the national media. This article actually starts out by saying women are just as likely to get an abortion regardless of its legal status. It then goes on to say:

In North America, there are 33 abortions for every 100 live births, while in Africa, where abortion is illegal in most countries, there are 17 abortions for every 100 live births"

I wonder what school teaches that half of the whole is equivelent to the whole?

Full article:

msnbc.msn.com/id/21255186/?GT1=10533

 

[Holly3278]

Somehow I don’t agree with that article. If abortion is illegal, and those who get abortions or perform abortions are punished, the abortion rate would drop dramatically. That said, I personally think abortion needs to remain legal at least for cases of rape, incest, molestation, and for the health or life of the mother.

 

[Dale_M]

Something is amiss with the article. It says that the abortion rate in developing countries is roughly the same as in developed countries. Yet the numbers in the article shows that the rate is 50 per 100 live births in developed nations and only 29 per 100 live births. This would mean that the abortion rate in developed nations is 72% higher than in developing nations.

But what is really jaw dropping is the abortion rate in Eastern Europe. The number of abortions exceeds the number of live births.

 

[Noobasaurus_Rex]

Somehow I don’t agree with that article. If abortion is illegal, and those who get abortions or perform abortions are punished, the abortion rate would drop dramatically. That said, I personally think abortion needs to remain legal at least for cases of rape, incest, molestation, and for the health or life of the mother.

The only time abortion should be justified is when the mother’s life is endangered.
Killing an innocent for any other recent besides another life being endangered is a grave sin.

 

[Holly3278]

The only time abortion should be justified is when the mother’s life is endangered.
Killing an innocent for any other recent besides another life being endangered is a grave sin.

Well, I disagree. Sorry but we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[SoCalRC]

Well, I disagree. Sorry but we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Why? The articles are just condensed explanations of an extensive WHO study.

Seriously, how does the idea that prohibition is not terribly effective surprise anyone? It hasn’t worked with drugs, prostitution, or alchohol.

The only thing that the study potentially means to Catholic teaching is that it will take an extensive and comprehensive approach to largely elliminate abortion. Why is this surprising? 60% of the woman procurring abortions int he US are low income/poor, over half of them are already mothers.

Why would we expect prohibition alone to stop all of them? We have to address the attitudes and behaviors that lead to unplanned pregnancies and we have to greatly expand the alternatives. It is easy to talk about adoption, but has anyone taken a good look at the adoption and child services situation in this country? Most of these changes are not going to happen via secular law, but from a lot of hard work from caring Christians.

 

[Bennie_P]

That news story is based on what is being considered to be bogus statistics, otherwise made up by the the pro-aborts.

Pro-abortion Guttmacher Institute produces bogus abortion statistics
Front Royal, Va, Oct 12, 2007 / 09:26 am (CNA).- Steven W. Mosher, president of the Population Research Institute has attacked the global abortion estimates of the pro-abortion Alan Guttmacher Institute as “simply bogus.”
The Guttmacher Institute, which Mosher describes as the “research arm of Planned Parenthood,” has published a report claiming a reduction in global abortions. It estimates worldwide abortion statistics to have declined from about 46 million in 1995 to under 42 million in 2003. It attributes this decline to an increase in countries that legalize abortion and more access to contraceptives.
Mosher criticized these estimates: “In actual fact, neither Guttmacher nor anyone else knows how many abortions have been performed worldwide in this year or any other year.” He noted that abortion statistics were only reliable in a few developed countries. In other countries, he claimed, these numbers are “at best educated guesses.” Mosher said any decline is not necessarily due to contraceptive access but rather due to government sterilization programs, especially in China and Vietnam. Some of these campaigns are known to be coercive.

 

[inthecloud]

Another example of fake science. I remember that in many cases when a country is debating making abortion legal, proabortion advoctes states that the number of abortions is X. When abortion is legalizaded it suddetly becomes X minus several 1000s and them clibs again to X in several years. The case of the dimishing rates of abortion in Eastern Europe is a text case that restricting abortion does work.

 

[mapleoak]

That news story is based on what is being considered to be bogus statistics, otherwise made up by the the pro-aborts.

Excellent example of media bias and distortion as well.

 

[mapleoak]

Another example of fake science. I remember that in many cases when a country is debating making abortion legal, proabortion advoctes states that the number of abortions is X. When abortion is legalizaded it suddetly becomes X minus several 1000s and them clibs again to X in several years. The case of the dimishing rates of abortion in Eastern Europe is a text case that restricting abortion does work.

It is most distressing when such ‘fake science’ is used to push the pro-abortion agenda. You then hear such rediculous things as “abortion should be legal because otherwise women will get them anyway, but in a back alley somewhere.”

 

[SoCalRC]

It is most distressing when such ‘fake science’ is used to push the pro-abortion agenda. You then hear such rediculous things as “abortion should be legal because otherwise women will get them anyway, but in a back alley somewhere.”

Funny how we rely on the Guttmacher institute when it suits our purposes. For example, the CDC’s abortion surveilence program reports abortions in this country at about 800,000. The Guttmacher Institute uses more comprehensive sourcing and placed the number over 50% higher. Guess which numbers we use to make ‘worse than the holocaust’ arguments…

Again, why attack the science? The only thing threatened is lazy Catholicism. That is, telling ourselves that a social ill of this magnitude can be solved by a change in secular law. Instead, take solice. The stats again reaffirm a strong connection to poverty. This makes Jesus’ earthly ministry and specific instructions to the faithful as relevant to today’s major problems as they were millenia ago.

 

[dafalax]

Well, I disagree. Sorry but we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

So you’re saying abortion is killing a baby unless the baby’s father is a rapist or related to the mother? Then it’s just a blob of tissue? I’m glad I wasn’t aborted solely based on my father’s questionable character. My quality of life is fine despite his alcoholism and neglect.
Also there is medically no reason why a direct abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother.

 

[SoCalRC]

So you’re saying abortion is killing a baby unless the baby’s father is a rapist or related to the mother? Then it’s just a blob of tissue? I’m glad I wasn’t aborted solely based on my father’s questionable character. My quality of life is fine despite his alcoholism and neglect.
Also there is medically no reason why a direct abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother.

This type of moral hyperbole is hurtful and not terribly productive.

Church teaching is clear, abortion is absolutely banned. The sins of the father or the life of the mother are not relevant to the gift of life. That said, we would do well to look to ourselves before passing judgement on others.

Most abortions in response to maternal risk are for ectopic pragnancies. Abortion is expressly prohibited as a treatment (see Directive 48 from the Church to Health Care providers), but massive numbers of salpingectomies, salpingastomies, and chemical abortions (MTX) are conducted in Catholic hospitals each year in this situation/

Similiarly, blacks and hispanics are over represented in procurred abortions (because they are over represented among the poor). As a consequence, Christians and Catholics are over represented among woman who procure abortions in the US.

So, while I would keep urging Holly to reconsider the legitimacy of her opinion, I would agree that secular law is the least effective prong in elliminating this evil. Just look at the facts, we struggle with our own teaching in our own hospitals and procure more than our fair share of legal abortions when we live in poverty. Doesn’t that say that we need to address the societal ills behing this evil, just as we were instructed to do by Jesus?

In 2002 a 9 year old girl named “Rosa” was raped and impregnated in Nicaragua. She also contracted a sexually transmitted disease from the assault. On the basis of serious medical risks to the girl’s life, her parents found a doctor willing to perform an abortion. In response, the parents and the doctor were excommunicated. The Church reversed the decision when a petition with 26,000 signatures from Rosa’s fellow Nicaraguan Catholics was delivered to the Pope’s representative in Spain.

My feeling is that, even if you disagree, if you cannot truly understand why those 26,000 thought they were following the call of their faith, then I suspect that you may not have fully embraced the Church’s pro-life teaching in its fullness.

 

[rlg94086]

Funny how we rely on the Guttmacher institute when it suits our purposes. For example, the CDC’s abortion surveilence program reports abortions in this country at about 800,000. The Guttmacher Institute uses more comprehensive sourcing and placed the number over 50% higher. Guess which numbers we use to make ‘worse than the holocaust’ arguments…

Again, why attack the science? The only thing threatened is lazy Catholicism. That is, telling ourselves that a social ill of this magnitude can be solved by a change in secular law. Instead, take solice. The stats again reaffirm a strong connection to poverty. This makes Jesus’ earthly ministry and specific instructions to the faithful as relevant to today’s major problems as they were millenia ago.

You are making a false assumption. Who says that we think it is solved *only *by a change in secular law? In addition, we will continue to have crisis pregnancy centers, continue to educate people on the evil of abortion, continue to support adoption, etc.

A change in the law is still a good idea, but it is not a standalone fix.

 

[estesbob]

You are making a false assumption. Who says that we think it is solved *only *by a change in secular law? In addition, we will continue to have crisis pregnancy centers, continue to educate people on the evil of abortion, continue to support adoption, etc.

A change in the law is still a good idea, but it is not a standalone fix.

The nothing can be done about abortion attitude is one shared by many people do not want their faith to infringe on their politics. Under the convoluted thinking of these people those who oppose abortion actually encourage it and those whose support abortion actually discourage it. Laws against abortion make it more likely laws for abortion make it less likely. Politicians you say they oppose abortion are liars, politicians you claim to be pro-abortion are given a pass because their heart is in the right place on other issues. Of course all all of these are ludicrous beyond belief but you will see them claimed as true again and again in CAF and among pro-choice "Catholics. "

 

[rlg94086]

The nothing can be done about abortion attitude is one shared by many people do not want their faith to infringe on their politics. Under the convoluted thinking of these people those who oppose abortion actually encourage it and those whose support abortion actually discourage it. Laws against abortion make it more likely laws for abortion make it less likely. Politicians you say they oppose abortion are liars, politicians you claim to be pro-abortion are given a pass because their heart is in the right place on other issues. Of course all all of these are ludicrous beyond belief but you will see them claimed as true again and again in CAF and among pro-choice "Catholics. "

Yep. Being Pro-Choice is all of a sudden the best way to be Pro-Life.

 

[mapleoak]

So, while I would keep urging Holly to reconsider the legitimacy of her opinion, I would agree that secular law is the least effective prong in elliminating this evil.

Secular laws in no way force the intentions of ones heart one way or the other. They are to protect those of a society, who otherwise would be at the unbridled mercy of those who wish to do them harm. It is an obligation of society to make illegal such things as murder, theft, abortion, etc., and serve due justice when such laws are transgressed.

Just look at the facts, we struggle with our own teaching in our own hospitals and procure more than our fair share of legal abortions when we live in poverty. Doesn’t that say that we need to address the societal ills behing this evil, just as we were instructed to do by Jesus?

Sadly, there are many ‘Catholic’ doctors as there are many ‘Catholic’ politicians. Catholicism encompasses much more than placing an adjective before ones name.

 

[Bennie_P]

Similiarly, blacks and hispanics are over represented in procurred abortions (because they are over represented among the poor). As a consequence, Christians and Catholics are over represented among woman who procure abortions in the US…

This is because from the beginning birth control and abortion has been aimed toward minorities and the poor as a solution (though a false solution) to thier poverty but mainly to control thier populations. Same as in the third world. If the monies and lobbying efforts to push legalize abortion into third world countries were used to feed and train the populations along with efforts to devolope those countries instead of used to control the populations and destroy families, the third world would be a lot better off then they are today. Catholics have always been in the forefront of working with the poor in this country and the third world, while the pro-aborts have been at the forefront to kill the innocent babies of the poor and minorities.

Here is a copy of books I suggest for to read. You can download them for free.
The Pivot of Civilization by Margaret Sanger

Woman and the New Race by Margaret Sanger

Found out the racist aims behind “Panned Parenthood”

I live in a mixed race neighbothood with the majority African American - the Church has centers serving the homeless and the poor and a shelter for battered women along with the state’s Pro-Life Hqts. Sadly though Planned Parenthood has an office in the neighborhood too.
The Catholic Church is right where it should be, just as we were instructed to do by Jesus.

 

[Newbie2]

Well, I disagree. Sorry but we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Just to be clear, Holly, you disagree with Church teachings on abortion?

 

[SoCalRC]

The nothing can be done about abortion attitude is one shared by many people do not want their faith to infringe on their politics.

Sorry to intrude with reality, but when I made statements similiar to rlg’s, plus the addition that we needed to look at access to things like prenatal care to the poor - you started shrieking about leftist “garbage”. You then exlained about how only Catholics like you were the source of all “good” progress on abortion and that anyone who thought differently was a “fake” or “sideline” Catholic.

I asked you the logical question, what progress? No answer.

In another thread you asserted that the GOP was the source of all “good” things in the war on abortion.

I asked the same question, what progress? No answer.

Now I finally understand. You have come up with a convenient way to stop your faith from conflicting with your politics, they are one in the same.