Abortion vs Captial Punishment

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estesbob:
Our Church disagrees with you.
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“Indeed ‘the blood is the life’ (Dt 12:23), and life, especially human life, belongs only to God: for this reason whoever attacks human life, in some way attacks God himself.”

So Evangelium Vitae disagrees with the Church?
 
Phil M said:
“Indeed ‘the blood is the life’ (Dt 12:23), and life, especially human life, belongs only to God: for this reason whoever attacks human life, in some way attacks God himself.”

So Evangelium Vitae disagrees with the Church?
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The Catechism of the church teaches that there are circumstances where the death penalty is acceptable. but then you know that-you have been told so repeatedly . The Church has taught that the death penaly is appropriate for 2,000 years. You ignore that also. By your convoluted thinking one would have to claim that the church is NOT pro-life.

Lets be honest here. you vote for pro-abortion candidates and rationalize it away by making absurd comparisons with candidates supporting the death penatly and the number of people dying from AIDS in Africa.

Bye
 
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estesbob:
The Catechism of the church teaches that there are circumstances where the death penalty is acceptable. but then you know that-you have been told so repeatedly . The Church has taught that the death penaly is appropriate for 2,000 years. You ignore that also. By your convoluted thinking one would have to claim that the church is NOT pro-life.

Lets be honest here. you vote for pro-abortion candidates and rationalize it away by making absurd comparisons with candidates supporting the death penatly and the number of people dying from AIDS in Africa.

Bye
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I never said the Church wasn’t pro-life. Yes, there are circumstances in which the Death Penalty is acceptable, but they are, as the CCC says, rare, and possibly even nonexistent

I’m not a one-issue voter. Abortion is absolutely a life issue. But HIV/AIDS is a life issue. Capital Punishment is a life issue. Euthanasia is a life issue. Poverty is a life issue. If a candidate claims to be pro-life on abortion, great. But that doesn’t mean that they will outlaw it, or even do anything to lower the abortion rate. Plenty of people say they support an amendment to ban it, but very few actually attempt to do so. Bush was elected, is abortion banned? Has Roe v. Wade been overturned?

Millions of people are killed every year by abortions performed in the US, and that absolutely needs to stop. But criminalizing it isn’t the only way to do that. It’s one way, and I’d support it if the effort was made, but a pro-choice candidate can also lower the abortion rate by reducing poverty.

The US government is giving less than 1% of the federal budget to help people in Africa, a place where millions of people are also dying each year, from treatable illnesses too. I don’t understand how it is “absurd” to see this as a problem. It’s absurd that our government is doing this little to put a stop to one of the most urgent problems in the world
 
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JoeyWarren:
That is one of my points, the whole reason for the death penalty is because of the result of sin of Anger and Revenge and the barbaric blood lust some people have. God created us not only in his image physically but intelligently as well. Does God have have a bloodlust? More importantly does Jesus have a blood lust.

I ask you to envision all of the children coming to Christ and sitting on his lap and at his feet. Now envision a man sitting in an electric chair. Now envision that same Christ with children walking up and throwing the switch. It’s the basic WWJD question. I just don’t see Christ throwing the switch. I see him asking the Executione " Are you without sin" And I see him asking the Jurors " Are you without sin" and then asking the Judge and Prosecutor “Are you without sin”
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Well, there are a few things to consider. What is your view of the 'bible since the death penalty for deliberate murder is something commanded by God in Scripture?

Secondly, Jesus didn’t spend much time protesting crucifixions. He wasn’t particularly interested in what the state did. He didn’t come to set up a new kind of earthly society and he had no political agenda. He came to save the lost sheep of israel and then to commission his disciples to bring those elected from the gentiles into the Church. Read the Gospels closely and you will see that Jesus is not the pacifist hippie that John Dominic Crossan makes him out to be. In one scene in the Gospel, Jesus even calls a gentile woman a dog. Yes, he heals her because of her faith, but he is not obsessed with being politically correct, pacifistic, or overly nice or sweet.

Finally, Jesus fully endorsed the Torah and never indicated that he was repudiating any of that. That being the case, we need to ask what jesus’ view of Scripture was. When the repentant thief on the cross asked Jesus for mercy and said that he deserved his punishment, Jesus didn’t argue with him. He didn’t say, “Oh now, just feel better about yourself because this is just wrong what they are doing to you.” He said, acknowledging the truth of his repentance, “Today you will be with me in paradise.”

The death penalty is a divine institution. Such is the teaching of the Word of God.
 
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JoeyWarren:
That was God’s perogative, not mans. Plus it is Old Testament. God was vengeful in those days. He sent his Son to us so that would not be have to be done again until the Last Day.
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Actually, I find the God of the New Testament to be quite vaengeful. In fact, I bet you can find more passages in the NT describing the eternal torments of the Lake of fire than you can in the OT.
 
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Isidore_AK:
The point you fail to grasp is that a just execution is not murder. The execution of the innocent is murder (for example: Abortion would qualify), but the just execution of a guilty criminal by the state is acceptable to the Church, has been used by the Church…and other than the liberal Bishops of our current age, the Church has never stood against the just execution of criminals. 👍
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Amen Preach it brother!

Seriously, we must remember that any statements such as “the conditions today make the use of the death penalty virtually nonexistent” (as can be find in our late Holy Father’s mostly wonderful encyclical “The Gospel of Life”) and in the mostly wonderful CCC, are not doctrinal statements. They can’t be by the nature of the propositions that they are. They are empirical, historical judgments that are intrinsically fallible and intrinsically nonbinding (much like the Vatican’s condemnation of the U.S. attack on the Hussein regime in Iraq).
 
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fix:
I suggest you read what cardinal Dulles has written.
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Cardinal Dulles’ article on the death penalty is the best to date. In it, he points out the Biblical, historical, and Traditional backing behind the death penalty and clearly shows that, at the most, the Vatican’s current position on the death penalty is a non-binding, prudential judgment that we should respect but that we are in no way obligated to adhere to. Its interesting that about 90% of the article strongly shows how much the acceptance of the death penalty is an intrinsic part of Christian thinking and that opposition to the death penalty has its roots and philosophical grounding in atheism and rejection of the Church. Then he has to do a sudden about face at the end of the article saying, in effect, that the Vatican thinks its prudent to end the death penalty and he personally agrees though no one is obligated to agree.

To me, this article more than anything else I’ve read vindicated the Traditional and Orthodox view that the death penalty is an intrinsically just and good penalty commanded by God and administered by the state for heineous crimes such as murder. Here is a link to Cardinal Dulles’ article.

firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0104/articles/dulles.html
 
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Brendan:
Joeywarren

Here is the infallible teaching of the Council of Trent. As such, it is the unchangeble teaching of the Church.

Do you agree with it’s teaching

.
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What I find fascinating is that the Council of Trent indicates that the use of capital punishment to punish offenders is an act of obedience to God. This suggests to me that the death penalty is commanded by God in cases where there are not mitigating circumstances. Such is my view. The death penalty should be the norm for 1st degree murder unless extenuating circumstances call for mercy. Such is the will of God according to Scripture and the Church’s authentic tradition.
 
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JoeyWarren:
I don’t know why we are debating about this. Most of us believe that Capital Punishment is wrong just as Abortion is wrong.
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Most of us do? I don’t. In fact, when justly applied, I think its not only permissible, but its a positive good and willed by God. But then again, I believe in the Bible and the Church’s tradition.
 
Since when do Democrats oppose the death penalty. I live in one of the most liberal and democratic states in America, California, and they have the death penalty.
 
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wjp984:
Since when do Democrats oppose the death penalty. I live in one of the most liberal and democratic states in America, California, and they have the death penalty.
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Most, not all.
Just like most Republican oppose abortions, but not all
 
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DreadVandal:
Amen Preach it brother!

Seriously, we must remember that any statements such as “the conditions today make the use of the death penalty virtually nonexistent” (as can be find in our late Holy Father’s mostly wonderful encyclical “The Gospel of Life”) and in the mostly wonderful CCC, are not doctrinal statements. They can’t be by the nature of the propositions that they are. They are empirical, historical judgments that are intrinsically fallible and intrinsically nonbinding (much like the Vatican’s condemnation of the U.S. attack on the Hussein regime in Iraq).
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thank you for that support.
 
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JoeyWarren:
A rose is a rose and by any other name is still a rose.
Execution is a Murder.
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Only if words mean nothing. I think words mean something and would not like to call God a murderer, which he would be if executtion is murder. We would therefore have to conclude that all murder is not sinful and need a new word for the illicit taking of life. Thus we would right back where we started.

If you meant that “Execution is a Murder” in that it is always sinful, then you have not only contradicted the catechism, but also are doing nothing more than begging the question.
the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.”

The last paragraph of this catechism makes it wrong to execute.
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No it doesn’t. Rare does not mean non-existent. Practically non-existent does not mean non-existent.

I have know that even among those who kill that those who will still pose a threat to society are in the minority. But they do exist. I have met a few. Failure to execute dome people will probably end in the death of someone else down the line. Life in prison without being a further danger to anyone else is a myth.

If anyone disagrees with this, I would like to know why. I base my claim on knowing and working around all kinds of criminals for twenty years. I
 
Phil M:
I’m not saying that the government can put a stop to every single thing that causes people to die. But when less than 1% of the federal budget is going to people in Africa who are in desperate need of our help, it’s pretty clear that the US isn’t doing all it can to improve people’s lives.
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Isn’t the U.S. budget for the U.S.? Oh, that’s right, we’re the world police.
“And God created man to his own image” (Genesis 2:27) Every person is created in the image of God, and so every life is sacred. Like it says in Evangelium Vitae, whoever attacks human life in any of its forms is attacking God himself
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So, when God tells the Israelites to kill other men, also made in His image, God is attacking Himself?

Not very good logic and that Scripture does nothing to help your position. For that one passage in Genesis, there are entire *books *in the Old Testament stating otherwise.
 
Phil M:
I’m not saying that the government can put a stop to every single thing that causes people to die. But when less than 1% of the federal budget is going to people in Africa who are in desperate need of our help, it’s pretty clear that the US isn’t doing all it can to improve people’s lives
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Furthermore, even giving a dime to Africa right now is a complete waste of money. Billions of dollars from around the world gets sent to Africa and yet the conditions have *never *improved. Money isn’t the problem.

First of all, most of the “needy” in Africa that you think you’re sending it to don’t even see it as it passes through the hands of corrupt governments and warlords. Secondly, I believe in the “give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish, feed him for a lifetime” principle. The state of people’s conditions will never change with handouts, it just makes them dependent.

Africa is such a fertile Continent and there is no reason why anyone should be poor there. What needs to be done is oust the warlords, rebuild their infrastructure, and help them become self-sufficient on Africa’s own magnificent resources.

Throwing money at Africa doesn’t do a darn thing to better the situation.
 
I will start a new post on why I think some killers are not safe behind bars.

First, and primarily, the courts do not allow true complete isolation. It is considered cruel and unusual. If they did allow such treatment, not one year would pass before all those who pushed it as an alternative to the death penalty would be clamoring to give them more humane treatment. Where telephone and mail privileges exists, the opportunity to run a criminal operation outside the bars exists. Where the right to sunshine or exercise exists, the opportunity for escape or access to other inmates exist.

Second, no prison is escape-proof or security-proof. Inmates with nothing but time on their hands will find ways that no one thinks of to either escape or manufacture weapons.

Third, those that guard these most dangerous of inmates are subject to human error. Most correctional officers are not payed all that well. The temptation to become complacent is always a problem. Since the inmate is trying to play into that complacency, eventually some will succeed. We either have an escape, a dead inmate, a dead officer or all three.

No, there are some people out there who are so committed to evil that this comparison to the innocence of the unborn is patently absurd.
 
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estesbob:
There is NO MORAL EQUIVALENCE between the two. That is what we are debating. Abortion is an intrinsic evil. Reasonable people can disagree on captial puishment but it is not intrinisically evil, is not is the same league as Abortion and is not condemned by Our Church
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The issue is not about whether it is intrinisically evil or not, it’s about whether it’s right or wrong. And if it is wrong then it is a sin of some degree.

Another example: BIRTH CONTROL: Whether it’s intrinisically evil or not is not the issue. The issue is whether it is right or wrong. The church has declared it wrong and has declared it a sin according to my knowledge. But since I am going to RCIA tonight and will ask the priest of his understanding of the Catechism. Although I am fairly certain of what he will say. The Church has declared it a sin, but that does not stop 80% of Cathlolics here in the U.S. from using condoms and Birth Control Pills. And while we are on Birth Control issue, this relates to the Abortion Issue as well. The ultimate backup that the Birth Control Pill uses is starvation of the egg.

Just inventory the children of every family in your parish and if the family only had 1 or 2 children, you can be assured that birth control was used to stem the flow of children or the couple stop having sexual intercourse.

And I really don’t care to hear if you or your wife does or does not use contraception, because the apogetics here only represent a minute fraction of all Catholics.

No it’s not a matter of intrinsically evil or not, it’s a matter if it is classified as being right or wrong and whether it is considered a sin however miniscule it may seem.
 
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JoeyWarren:
Okay, if we are going to go there, let’s go there fully.

Let us Execute every single Priest that has molested a child. And let us Execute every single Priest that helped to cover this up starting with Cardinal Bernad Shaw who is hiding in the Vatican.

These crimes they committed are more heinous than murder.

These Priests are the Cancer of Society.

No more comments from me on this today.
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What would the Vatican say if the public cried out for the Execution of these priests? I will put my soul up against yours that they would cite the last paragraph.
 
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JoeyWarren:
The issue is not about whether it is intrinisically evil or not, it’s about whether it’s right or wrong. And if it is wrong then it is a sin of some degree.
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Not necessarily. If I make a wrong turn on the freeway, as opposed to the right exit, there is no sin involved. If you are talking about what is morally wrong, that is a good definition of evil.
 
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