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JoeyWarren
Guest
Provided you are executing someone actually guilty and not actually innocent.
Also one could say that no longer applies as
“its a shame for a woman to speak in church” no loner applies because of the times…
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Also one could say that no longer applies as
“its a shame for a woman to speak in church” no loner applies because of the times…
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DreadVandal
Guest
I want to post this passage from Romans again and offer a few comments:
Romans 13:3-4
“For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou, then, not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same; for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain; for he is the minister of God, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil”
Notice first of all that this in the New Testament. So, the argument that this applies to the OT won’t cut it here. Secondly, St. Paul is saying that the pagan nation of Rome is God’s agent of vengeance and justice. So, even the pagan/secular state is an agent of God’s will and providence and deserves our obedience and respect.
I have heard some argue that the reason the death penalty shouldn’t be used today is because we are such a culture of death and we are not the christian culture we used to be. I think
this passage of Scripture shows that argument to be irrelevant. Pagan Rome was certainly not a “culture of life.”
To be honest, the idea that the death penalty reinforces the culture of death is just absurd. The death penalty is a sign of respect for life; but it recognizes the gravity of the crime of murder.
I would argue that a blanket moratorium on the death penalty
would be disrespectful of life.
Romans 13:3-4
“For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou, then, not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same; for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain; for he is the minister of God, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil”
Notice first of all that this in the New Testament. So, the argument that this applies to the OT won’t cut it here. Secondly, St. Paul is saying that the pagan nation of Rome is God’s agent of vengeance and justice. So, even the pagan/secular state is an agent of God’s will and providence and deserves our obedience and respect.
I have heard some argue that the reason the death penalty shouldn’t be used today is because we are such a culture of death and we are not the christian culture we used to be. I think
this passage of Scripture shows that argument to be irrelevant. Pagan Rome was certainly not a “culture of life.”
To be honest, the idea that the death penalty reinforces the culture of death is just absurd. The death penalty is a sign of respect for life; but it recognizes the gravity of the crime of murder.
I would argue that a blanket moratorium on the death penalty
would be disrespectful of life.
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DreadVandal
Guest
See my next post and women shouldn’t speak in church by the way. That passage about women speaking in Church (see 1 Corinthians) has to do preaching and prophesying with authority. In other words, St. Paul is saying that women are not to hold
public offices of authority and teach as priests in the Church.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Any murder of an Innocent is a sin. And if your execute a true innocent then you are exacting out cold-blooded murder.
Judical Homicide becomes Cold-Blooded Murder.
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DreadVandal
Guest
Also, with our appeals system today, its virtually impossible for an innocent person to be executed. The fact that some are exonerated by the appeals process shows that the system is working, not that it is failing. 30 years ago, there would have been a higher chance of innocents folks being executed in the U.S. But today, its virtually certain that all of those executed are guilty.
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pnewton
Guest
If we are going to use 100% as a standard, how can we be 100% certain that a serial killer will not kill another person. In some cases, there can be a greater probability that another victim will die. The courts can kill through inaction as well as action. This is why 100% is not a reasonable standard.
No one wishes to see an innocent party put to death. Guess what? Innocent people die every day at the hand of criminals, most of which have been through the justice system before.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
DreadVandal But today said:
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DreadVandal
Guest
Do you have any real evidence to back this up? Factual reports?
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JoeyWarren
Guest
History is riddled with it.
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DreadVandal
Guest
Actually that is not true. Eyewitness to murder know the defendant is 100% guilty and usually the victim does as well. Why do you make such strong, unprovable statements?
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fix
Guest
Murder is objectively a sin, that does not mean anyone involved is subjectively culpable. Keep in mind we speak of personal sin, not some vague corporate sin.
No. Sin requires, among other factors, intent.
Intentionally killing innocent folks is murder. Please be accurate.
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DreadVandal
Guest
Do me a favor and find some reports on executions in the United States in the past 20 years that details the large number of innocent people being executed.
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fix
Guest
And how can we say that one who supports DP supports killing innocents or is somehow guilty of murder because errors have been made in the process?
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JoeyWarren
Guest
only four countries. The United States is one of those four. So, with our long-standing belief in equal protection under the law for all of our citizens, what countries join America in this ‘honor’? Surely it must be other, similar-minded countries with a high regard for democracy, civil rights, and freedom. That is not the case. The United States is joined at the top of this list by these paragons of virtue: China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. I can not think of any context in which our country would want to be grouped with those countries. (“Death Penalty on Trial” 2003) Granted, this argues more for the complete abolishment of the death penalty, but with sentences being so inconsistent, that just seems to make sense.
One unusual experiment has probably done more to prove the arbitrary nature of the death penalty than anything else has. According to a report in The Christian Science Monitor, a software program - known as an artificial neural network - using 28 years of data regarding prisoners facing a death sentence, managed to predict with more than 90 percent accuracy who would be executed. (Leach, Christian Science Monitor 2005) The implication, says Dee Wood Harper, one of the researchers and a professor of criminal justice at Loyola University in New Orleans, is that “if this mindless software can determine who is going to die and who is not going to die, then there’s some arbitrariness here in the [United States justice] system.”
The problems inherent with the death penalty are abundantly clear. Racial biases in death penalty cases are evident. The inability of poor defendants to receive equal representation is well documented. The death penalty is used many times as a political tool - apart from any merit of the case. Prosecutors have no consistent policy that would tell them when to seek the death penalty. Not to mention the fact that scores of prisoners have been exonerated - while on death row - after their innocence was proven. Unfortunately, we will never know how many of the nearly 1000 prisoners put to death in the last 30 years may have been innocent.
As we go through our daily lives, we make many decisions that may be capricious or arbitrary because they simply do not make a great deal of difference. Conversely, when it comes to decisions of life or death, that must never be the case. Death penalty sentencing, as currently practiced is, without a doubt, arbitrary - and must be ended.
One unusual experiment has probably done more to prove the arbitrary nature of the death penalty than anything else has. According to a report in The Christian Science Monitor, a software program - known as an artificial neural network - using 28 years of data regarding prisoners facing a death sentence, managed to predict with more than 90 percent accuracy who would be executed. (Leach, Christian Science Monitor 2005) The implication, says Dee Wood Harper, one of the researchers and a professor of criminal justice at Loyola University in New Orleans, is that “if this mindless software can determine who is going to die and who is not going to die, then there’s some arbitrariness here in the [United States justice] system.”
The problems inherent with the death penalty are abundantly clear. Racial biases in death penalty cases are evident. The inability of poor defendants to receive equal representation is well documented. The death penalty is used many times as a political tool - apart from any merit of the case. Prosecutors have no consistent policy that would tell them when to seek the death penalty. Not to mention the fact that scores of prisoners have been exonerated - while on death row - after their innocence was proven. Unfortunately, we will never know how many of the nearly 1000 prisoners put to death in the last 30 years may have been innocent.
As we go through our daily lives, we make many decisions that may be capricious or arbitrary because they simply do not make a great deal of difference. Conversely, when it comes to decisions of life or death, that must never be the case. Death penalty sentencing, as currently practiced is, without a doubt, arbitrary - and must be ended.
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DreadVandal
Guest
Indeed, at the most, the execution of an innocent person that is not intentional (the persons involved in good faith believe the defendant is guilty) may be negligent homicide. But that’s at the most. Unless a person was being framed by the state precisely to kill the person, then its not murder. Its an unfortunate accident.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Prosecutors and Judges in Viginia and other states are resisting efforts to check for DNA evidence in cases of prisoners who were exectued before DNA examinations of evidence was available, i.e., cases in the 1980’s and earlier. These prosecutors are terrified that they might have killed innocent men. As is well known, dozens of people have escaped years of being on DEATH ROW when DNA evidence cleared them from wrongdoing.
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DreadVandal
Guest
Okay, several things need to be addressed here so I will do it in the next post since this is rather long.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
after their innocence was proven. Given the numbers, it simply stands to reason that many others have, in fact, been put to death even though they were innocent of the crimes they were convicted of.
I believe that every case that has been questioned in any way should be reviewed in an effort to clear up the issue for both sides. You would think that prosecutors would insist on reviews in an effort to clear their tainted image. The more cases that they could have verified as correct, the anti-death penalty forces may lose some of their momentum. That is – if they are actually confident that justice was served.
You are undoubtedly correct that their greatest fear would be the discovery of multiple cases of executions of innocent people.
I believe that every case that has been questioned in any way should be reviewed in an effort to clear up the issue for both sides. You would think that prosecutors would insist on reviews in an effort to clear their tainted image. The more cases that they could have verified as correct, the anti-death penalty forces may lose some of their momentum. That is – if they are actually confident that justice was served.
You are undoubtedly correct that their greatest fear would be the discovery of multiple cases of executions of innocent people.
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DreadVandal
Guest
Okay,
1.) It doesn’t matter how many nations approve the death penalty. Even if the U.S. were the only nation in the world to sanction the death penalty, that would not make the death penalty wrong.
2.) These computer programs, were they predicting the specific persons who were going to be executed? or kinds of persons? out of the general population or out those awaiting trial for capital crimes? It looks rather fishy to me. More details are needed.
3.) The racial bias is possible, but questionable. In any event, no one is sentenced to death who is not deemed guilty of a crime, under the law, that permits the death penalty. So, its not like the government is going to say, “Oh, you are a shoplifter and you are black, death penalty.” It also happens to be the case that African american males commit a disproportionate number of capital murder crimes.
4.) It is true that the poor must rely on public defenders. But that is true for all crimes, not just murder cases. And there really isn’t much that can be done about it. Still, our appeals process is so long and drawn out that there is ample opportunity to catch error in the process.
1.) It doesn’t matter how many nations approve the death penalty. Even if the U.S. were the only nation in the world to sanction the death penalty, that would not make the death penalty wrong.
2.) These computer programs, were they predicting the specific persons who were going to be executed? or kinds of persons? out of the general population or out those awaiting trial for capital crimes? It looks rather fishy to me. More details are needed.
3.) The racial bias is possible, but questionable. In any event, no one is sentenced to death who is not deemed guilty of a crime, under the law, that permits the death penalty. So, its not like the government is going to say, “Oh, you are a shoplifter and you are black, death penalty.” It also happens to be the case that African american males commit a disproportionate number of capital murder crimes.
4.) It is true that the poor must rely on public defenders. But that is true for all crimes, not just murder cases. And there really isn’t much that can be done about it. Still, our appeals process is so long and drawn out that there is ample opportunity to catch error in the process.
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DreadVandal
Guest
Are there accurate figures for the number of innocent people executed in the US since the 1970s?
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