Abortion vs genocide in the Bible

[Prince_Hal]

In discussing the Catholic church’s stance on abortion with my Mormon friends, they come back to me and say that in the OT that God ordered whole peoples including children to be slaughtered. Hence they say that Mormonisms allowance of abortion in very rare circumstances whewn confirmed through prayer, is perfectly in accord.

How can I answer this without getting into the Magisterium, since Mormons too claim authority from God through their prophet ?

Many thanks for any assistance that you can give. By the way, I am a Mormon myself in the process of “swimming the Tiber”.

God bless,

Hal.

 

[1st_Exploration]

Protestant Dr. William Lane Craig has talked about the “atrocities of the Old Testament” here in an audio file. He explains why and how such things were justified. The Mormons have no way they can justify their allowance of abortion. Abortion is done today mainly because of “inconvenience” and irresponsible parents. The Israelites destruction of children was done for an entirely different reason and was justifiable.

After listening to Dr. Craig, I think you can see why it impossible to justify abortion using the Old Testament.

 

[Cajetan]

In discussing the Catholic church’s stance on abortion with my Mormon friends, they come back to me and say that in the OT that God ordered whole peoples including children to be slaughtered. Hence they say that Mormonisms allowance of abortion in very rare circumstances whewn confirmed through prayer, is perfectly in accord.

How can I answer this without getting into the Magisterium, since Mormons too claim authority from God through their prophet ?

There’s a wide gulf between what God did and what He commands us to do. God answers to no one; we answer to God.

One of the things that God commanded of us is to not commit murder. This was, quite literally, set in stone. It was also renewed by Jesus Christ. There is no “confirming through prayer” otherwise, any more than I can privately “confirm” through prayer that it is OK for me to rob the local bank because once upon a time God allowed Job’s possessions to be taken away. By holding this belief Mormons are basically saying that in certain circumstances cold-blooded murder is allowable, and not only that, but toward the most innocent and helpless among us: our babies.

What I see in Mormonism on this point is a mixture of false prophecy and the effects of modernist ideology. They are twisting the Word of God in an attempt to justify not wanting to go through difficult pregnancies.

 

[AHapka]

In discussing the Catholic church’s stance on abortion with my Mormon friends, they come back to me and say that in the OT that God ordered whole peoples including children to be slaughtered. Hence they say that Mormonisms allowance of abortion in very rare circumstances whewn confirmed through prayer, is perfectly in accord.

You can make the argument that God knew those children would be corrupted by those people and be lost eternally. By dying as children, before they could commit any sin, they are not in hell. The other reason God ordered whole peoples to be slaughtered is because they would corrupt the Jewish population at the time.

However, the truest argument is this: God gives us life, and he decides how and when it will be taken.

For example: If I were to walk up to my son with a knife with intent to kill him, I would be sinning already. Now when Abraham did it, he was not sinning because he was following the command of God. The same goes for the Isrealites. God used the Isrealites as His tool to kill those peoples. God gave those people their lives, and He decided how to end them. It’s His right. There was no sin for the Isrealites there.

But it is interesting to note that God nowhere in scripture tells anyone to kill a child and spare the mother. There were no “individual” situations. When God ordered peoples destroyed, it was absolute and not just encompassing an individual situation. The punishment was also carried out by the state (i.e. national army), and not by an individual acting on his/her own.

There is no scripture anywhere where God ever orders someone to get an abortion.

Andy

 

[Prince_Hal]

You can make the argument that God knew those children would be corrupted by those people and be lost eternally. By dying as children, before they could commit any sin, they are not in hell. The other reason God ordered whole peoples to be slaughtered is because they would corrupt the Jewish population at the time.
Andy

Many thanks for your reply. Just on the one point above. Could this not be said for us all. We all commit sin, why are we spared this destruction. Would these children really have committed worse sin than us ? Even Augustine repented and became one of the great Doctors of the Church, yet his early life was certainly not angelic. Can those who were killed to save the Jewish people from being corrupted have a second chance ?

Forgive my ignorance of what is probably basic theology. I was never taught in over 20 years as a Mormon ever to think for myself. But, this isn;t a thread about mormonism.

Thank you for your help. Please my brothers and sisters go on.

God bless you,

Hal.

 

[Swan]

You can make the argument that God knew those children would be corrupted by those people and be lost eternally. By dying as children, before they could commit any sin, they are not in hell. The other reason God ordered whole peoples to be slaughtered is because they would corrupt the Jewish population at the time.

However, the truest argument is this: God gives us life, and he decides how and when it will be taken.

For example: If I were to walk up to my son with a knife with intent to kill him, I would be sinning already. Now when Abraham did it, he was not sinning because he was following the command of God. The same goes for the Isrealites. God used the Isrealites as His tool to kill those peoples. God gave those people their lives, and He decided how to end them. It’s His right. There was no sin for the Isrealites there.

But it is interesting to note that God nowhere in scripture tells anyone to kill a child and spare the mother. There were no “individual” situations. When God ordered peoples destroyed, it was absolute and not just encompassing an individual situation. The punishment was also carried out by the state (i.e. national army), and not by an individual acting on his/her own.

There is no scripture anywhere where God ever orders someone to get an abortion.

Andy

I have never been able to reconcile the above God of the OT with the loving God of the NT.

 

[LittleOne1]

I think we have to remember not only does God give and take life, but our God is a God of mercy who always finds ways to reach out to people. Have we forgotten that Christ descended to preach among the dead? Could not countless souls be saved in this way? Also, we have to remember that many of these people did not know of God like the Isrealites and therefore less was required of them, but also any person has some sense of right and wrong and therefore could commit sin that was serious with full knowledge. Through Christ, that death is not a final statement. As a previous poster said, maybe many souls were actually saved with God taking their lives sooner so as to avoid them committing a mortal sin. Finally it is up to God to decide our number of days; not us. Remember Christ’s parable of the workers who came in at different times during the day and earned the same pay. What is unfair in our hearts is justice in God’s heart; something we can never fully measure on our own.
We all deserve hell for our sins. God’s mercy reaches people in ways we never knew or will know, and we must trust God who does not desire damnation of his creatures, but to live in His glory. And this God is the same both in the OT, the NT, and now. Those people died and were later saved through the preaching to the dead by Christ, or their hearts would always turn away from God, or God took them earlier so as to have them avoid mortal sin. We must not think that death is the end, or something we do not deserve. We all deserve the punishment of death, but death no longer has its sting. Even today, God takes children early so they can be with Him in His kingdom. I imagine they are happy because God brought them home early and protected them from temptation from the world. So let God decide the number of our days, and us to always say yes to Him.

 

[Todd_Easton]

In the OT, the children who were killed by the Israelites were killed on account of the sins of their parents and along with their parents. It seems to me that the only way this genocidal practice can possibly be used to justify abortion is if the parents of the aborted ones are also killed. Otherwise, direct abortion seems to be a violation of the “Thou shalt not kill” Commandment.

 

[Prince_Hal]

In the OT, the children who were killed by the Israelites were killed on account of the sins of their parents and along with their parents. It seems to me that the only way this genocidal practice can possibly be used to justify abortion is if the parents of the aborted ones are also killed. Otherwise, direct abortion seems to be a violation of the “Thou shalt not kill” Commandment.

Very interesting thought. It led me to thinking that the killing in the OT did serve a purpose in saving the Israelites from spiritual corruption and falling away from God and being the source from whence the Saviour would be born. Abortion for the reasons stated by the Mormon church (to save the mother’s life, or in the case of rape or incest, or if the foetus was “not viable”), letting the child live would not in any way cause the mother to depart from God or a group of people to fall into heretical practice. All it would do is to a Mormon ease pain and as I have been told directly by one Mormon - be a sign of God’s mercy to the mother. Of course this argument is absolutely false, as we know the harm done to the mother from an abortion is greater from the terrible deed of rape or incest.

So, maybe the answer lies in the reasons behind God requiring Israel to kill these people.

Many thanks to the poster that gave me the link to the mp3 talk. It is well worth listening to.

God bless you,

Hal.