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migurl
Guest
There is something that has been bugging me lately. I read in a book that babies who die before baptism don’t get to see God. THey go to heaven, but don’t see God’s face. What have you heard?
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imdevoted43
Guest
My opinion is that God is much bigger than this and he looks upon the heart. I believe an unborn child is with god in every way.
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DreadVandal
Guest
No one knows with certainty what happens to children who die without baptism. The most traditional theological opinion is that they are given a state of natural happiness, but cannot see the face of God since they die in original sin (Limbo). A few of the Church fathers, such as St. Augustine taught that infants went to hell where they were punished with the lightest of punishments. Some theologians have suggested the possibility of their being saved by a baptism of desire or, in the case of abortion victims, a baptism of blood. All of these explanations are possible but we don’t know for certain which is the actual case. That is why the Church refrains from making a definitive statement and asks that we commend them to God’s mercy.
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1ke
Guest
What is said in a book is not necessarily Church teaching. You do not specify what book you read.
The Church teaches the following (from the Catechism of the Catholic Church):
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,”[63] allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
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EtienneGilson
Guest
Though that is the current Church teaching it is not the historical teaching (not that I am arguing for the historical teaching, but rather how a previously disgusting teaching has been reversed)
newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm
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DreadVandal
Guest
But the door is not definitively closed on the possibility that infants who die without baptism may, through baptism of desire (perhaps on the part of their parents?) may be saved. We simply don’t know. Without divine revelation, we see no clear way in which unbaptized infants who die can participate in baptism and be saved. It is best simply to be agnostic about it and say that unless God provides baptismal grace in some way, mysterious to us, then infants cannot be saved. We should also know that God knows who will be saved and who won’t. So no infant will die and be excluded from the glory of heaven unless God wills it. We do not know the complete will of God so we can only pray that His will be done and hope that some way may be possible for their salvation.
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Jeanette_L
Guest
I know that Paul had written in I Cor. 15:29:
Else what shall they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they, then, baptized for the dead?
Paul was speaking about the validity of the Resurrection of the Dead, and he seems to be referring to some type of rite done by the early Christians for unbaptized dead. I don’t know what the official Church teaching is on this, but might this rite have been for such a case as unbaptized infants/children or miscarried infants?
Anyone know what the Church says about this scripture or this baptism for the dead?
Else what shall they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they, then, baptized for the dead?
Paul was speaking about the validity of the Resurrection of the Dead, and he seems to be referring to some type of rite done by the early Christians for unbaptized dead. I don’t know what the official Church teaching is on this, but might this rite have been for such a case as unbaptized infants/children or miscarried infants?
Anyone know what the Church says about this scripture or this baptism for the dead?
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
I have heard this theory. It is but one of many variant theories.
There isn’t one “historical teaching” which is why it continues to be speculative theology.
The pre-Augustinian view is expressed by St. Gregory of Nazianzus:
It will happen, I believe . . . that those last mentioned [infants dying without baptism] will neither be admitted by the just judge to the glory of Heaven nor condemned to suffer punishment, since, though unsealed [by baptism], they are not wicked. . . . For from the fact that one does not merit punishment it does not follow that one is worthy of being honored, any more than it follows that one who is not worthy of a certain honor deserves on that account to be punished. [Orat., xl, 23]
Although not explicitly called “limbo” the teaching above is such that those who die in original sin only will suffer from what is called poena damni (excluded from the Beatific Vision of God), and not suffer what is called poena sensus (torment).
St. Augustine’s earlier teaching tends to agree with the above. Prior to the Pelagian heresy, St. Augustine wrote in De libero arbitrio III, discussing the fate of unbaptized infants after death:
“It is superfluous to inquire about the merits of one who has not any merits. For one need not hesitate to hold that life may be neutral as between good conduct and sin, and that as between reward and punishment there may be a neutral sentence of the judge.”
Yet St. Augustine later appears to change his view. He influenced the Council of Carthage (AD 418) to condemn the proposition that “an intermediate place, or of any place anywhere at all (ullus alicubi locus), in which children who pass out of this life unbaptized live in happiness" (Denzinger 102).
Thus, without using the word “limbus” St. Augustine contends against the common teaching that limbo is a place of happiness for those who die in original sin only, yet excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. He instead asserted that the fate of infants who die without sacramental baptism includes both poena damni and poena sensus, yet the poena sensus which infants suffer is the “mildest condemnation of all” (De peccat. meritis I, xxi). This view seems to be the one held for centuries in the west, to include St. Anselm (d. 1109).
Peter Abelard (d. 1142) rejected the notion of material torment (poena sensus) and retained only the pain of loss (poena damni) as the eternal punishment of original sin (cf. Comm. in Rom.). While other teachings of Abelard were condemned, this particular view was not, and it became accepted by Catholic theologians. Peter Lombard (d. about 1160-64) popularized this view ( Sent. II, xxxiii, 5). It was accepted by Pope Innocent III, who asserted that those dying with only original sin on their souls will suffer "no other pain, whether from material fire or from the worm of conscience, except the pain of being deprived forever of the vision of God” (Corp. Juris, Decret. l. III, tit. xlii, c. iii – Majores). Many theologians held that this poena still implied some “spiritual torment.”
St. Thomas Aquinas appears to be the first to break from this view, asserting instead that limbo was a place of natural bliss. He denied that they suffer from any “interior affliction.” In other words, he denies they experience any pain of loss (nihil omnino dolebunt de carentia visionis divinae – “In Sent.”, II, 33, q. ii, a.2). He furthermore denied that these souls have any knowledge of the supernatural destiny they have missed. In St. Thomas’ view “limbo” is not a mere negative state of immunity from suffering and sorrow, but a state of positive happiness in which the soul is united to God by a knowledge and love of him proportionate to nature’s capacity.
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DreadVandal
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Jeanette L:
This passage of Scripture has baffled even the top Scripture scholars. No one has a clue as to what they were doing; since there is no other evidence of such a practice in the early Church. But some have suggested that people were being baptized for their ancestors who had died before being able to embrace Christ. The Mormons derive their practice from this.
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DreadVandal
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Thanks, that was a good historical summary. Personally, I think that the older views make a good bit of sense. I suppose though that one could argue that their state is a state of natural happiness in the sense of absence of pain. Infant consciousness has no real awareness of personal existence so it wouldn’t know what it was missing by being excluded from God’s kingdom. At the same time, if its only punishment is loss of heaven, it wouldn’t feel any pain either. Therefore, it would be in a naturally peaceful state. I can buy this view or St. Augustine’s view that the souls of unbaptized infants receive the mildest of punishments.
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Jeanette_L
Guest
I think that I will choose to believe that because God is pure Love, alongside Justice, and because Christ paid the ultimate price for the redemption of the whole world, and because of His Merciful Heart, I will believe that my child who was lost in miscarriage, is safe in my Savior’s arms. I know his Mercy all too well in my own life, I cannot believe he would withhold it from an innocent.
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DreadVandal
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Jeanette L:
And the Catechism clearly states that we may have hope in God’s mercy, so I don’t blame you in the least. It is my hope as well that God has a way of providing salvation to those children without baptism.
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Melissa
Guest
In Evangelium Vitae (99): “I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion … your child, who is now living in the Lord” … to me, that says that aborted children are with God, and if they are, I cannot imagine God would not accept my miscarried children (three first trimester losses) with the same open arms.
Had they been born alive, of course, they would have been baptized.
Had they been born alive, of course, they would have been baptized.
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mary_s_kid
Guest
If God loves my children a thousand times more than I do then I know that my babies are with Him. I can understand the church not being able to declare a teaching in this instance but I personally believe that God loves the souls of these children and wouldn’t cause them to be separated from him.
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Jeanette_L
Guest
Melissa and Mary’s Kid,
I am sorry for both of your losses. I know that those of us who have lost little ones in this way have a special hope of reconciliation in the presence of our Father. I can’t imagine heaven being complete without that.
Since I am very new to Catholicism, can I ask you if either of you have any special prayers that you say for these lost ones? I think it would be a renewed comfort to have something special.
Thanks and God Bless,
Jeanette
I am sorry for both of your losses. I know that those of us who have lost little ones in this way have a special hope of reconciliation in the presence of our Father. I can’t imagine heaven being complete without that.
Since I am very new to Catholicism, can I ask you if either of you have any special prayers that you say for these lost ones? I think it would be a renewed comfort to have something special.
Thanks and God Bless,
Jeanette
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migurl
Guest
I read some stuff from the Vatican’s website. Basically we must leave it up to the mercy of God. It has been taught that it is possible that they could end of in “limbo”. But really, only God knows.
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BlestOne
Guest
Migurl,
I believe in God’s infinite mercy, do you? Like others, I have lost a child before birth and in my heart I know and believe that they are in heaven with our Lord. If I felt they were not, I could never go on living. God is Love…and who can be love and not love an infant?
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
I am sorry for your loss Melissa. You can certainly have hope that your children are with God. However, according to Fr. Brian Harrison, O.S., Associate Professor of Theology at the Pontifical Catholic University of Puerto Rico, the final and definitive Latin version of Evangelium Vitae as published by the Pope doesn’t say what has been translated above. (cf. Evangelium Vitae, Acta Apostolicae Sedis, vol. 87 [1995] p. 515)
It instead says: “You can entrust your infant with hope to the same Father and to His Mercy” (Infantem autem vestrum potestis Eidem Patri Eiusque misericordiae cum spe committere).”
Having hope in God’s mercy for extra-sacramental sanctification is certainly in accord with our Divine and Catholic faith.
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