Abortion: What do you think is the primary way of reducing abortion

[3DOCTORS]

#4 - it’s inclusive of all of the above.

Thanks, tawny - I was looking for that “All of the Above” or “Other” option I gravitate toward in most polls. (See my awesome thread on creating polls forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=825224.)

Seriously, though, we must first begin with prayer. This is a spiritual battle,** For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens** (Ephesians 6:12). Some very hardened abortion providers have been converted by the power of prayer.

Once we have prayed, which of the actions to emphasize in a given time or situation will be made clear to us.

 

[MrSnaith]

I disagree with that premise. I think what drives many people into public office is the belief that laws can change culture. In a previous post I gave the example of how racial discrimination laws changed the culture relatively quickly after many years of using religious and moral arguments through the pulpit and media werent making a dent.

There are also many minor laws such as speed and traffic laws or taxation related laws that if put to the popular vote would not make it through. We do entrust to our government an authority to implement laws that serve the greater good as they perceive it.

This is why I think we should be demanding a very high standard of our Catholic politicians and leaders. Also being a strong force in the field of legislative ethics.

Of course the other options are highly important as well but I still go with #1 as a *primary *focus.

I’d work under the premise that legislators are voted in based on the platform they run on. Thus, legislation is representationally voted in by the populace.

That’s the principle anyway. Whether it’s a reality or not is another question. But I’d like to think that if the government passed into law something that the majority of the population found abhorrent, there’d be some kind of outcry. Maybe that’s just fanciful thinking.

But regarding racial discrimination, it could be equally argued that it was education that transformed culture, not the law. And that’s really what has been transforming our culture to where we’re at today: the education of our children has been toward homosexual acceptance, contraception, abortion, etc. That’s really the key. Get 'em while they’re young.

 

[rossum]

What would you consider more reliable contraception? Aside from abstinence, permanent surgical sterilization is the most certain way to prevent pregnancy but this is not ever going to be an option for young people who make up the majority of the abortion clientele.

People have a primal instinct to preserve their fertility, especially men. What possible answer do you envisage?

English grammar can be confusing. I was copying from an earlier post:

More reliable contraception.

I took that to mean “a larger quantity of reliable contraception”. That was certainly the sense which I intended when posting.

You are correct that contraception is not 100% reliable. Neither is abstinence, since a woman may be raped. Even without rape, not everyone can keep to the straight and narrow all of the time. The sacrament of Penance is there because people do find it difficult to keep to the rules all of the time. If Abstinence was 100% effective, then nobody would ever need to go to Confession since nobody would ever sin!

rossum

 

[Kamaduck]

If I assume that #4 means convincing people that abortion is morally wrong, then I’d rank the options like this:

2, 3, 4, 1.

Right now, most pro-life activism centers on four and one. Supporting desperate mothers is what we’re spending the least time on, and in some cases conservatives are actively hindering support for poor mothers (those most likely to have an abortion).

I do think that for long-term effects, we need to bring people back to a proper understanding of sexuality. But to save the babies that already exist, we absolutely need to be supporting their mothers as much as possible. If you want to save lives, we need a better support structure.

The reason that #1 is last for me is that I honestly don’t think that just making something illegal can stop it from happening. Look at the issues we’re having with drugs and internet piracy. Unless we change the culture first, making abortion illegal won’t help us one bit.

 

[smichhertz]

Here’s my though on the matter:

The primary way of reducing it would be to reduce sexual immorality. When people have a proper understanding of sex, then they would not tempted to utilize abortion in the first place.

The legal restrictions certainly help, but would be entirely unnecessary if people did not commit sexual immorality.

 

[josh987654321]

I thought 1. Increasing legal restrictions until (hopefully) making it illegal.

I put a lot of faith in the power of societal taboos. I really believe that every person has within him truth regarding the natural laws and the desire for the grace of God. A lot of the community can be converted by good moral teaching however I think more people have a respect for the law first and the ethical/moral roots of the law second. Even as Catholics, we have the benefit of the traditions of the Church to give us that first openness to the moral and ethical principles behind laws. The authority of tradition and the authority of the law play a highly significant part in influencing people.

This in my mind, makes it imperative that the Catholic ethics arm remain a strong and vibrant force in upper parts of society (as in legal and medical fields) and also that high ranking Catholics use their position to promote godly laws and live openly and faithfully their Catholicism. It is such an important duty of office.

I think all of the options are good, but ultimately 1. is the most important I believe. I am suprised only a small few (11%, 5 including me and longing soul) selected 1.

I believe If one of us were watching a woman getting beaten by her husband, I doubt we would simply walk away saying “we should instead address the root causes of spousal abuse” or “we should change peoples views of spousal abuse” and let him continue beating his wife. I mean sure, we can and should address the root causes of spousal abuse and work to change societies views (if they were for it), but wouldn’t people agree that, that is secodary to first and foremost stopping him from beating his wife to death?

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[isaacalsop]

Here’s my though on the matter:

The primary way of reducing it would be to reduce sexual immorality. When people have a proper understanding of sex, then they would not tempted to utilize abortion in the first place.

The legal restrictions certainly help, but would be entirely unnecessary if people did not commit sexual immorality.

Exactly!

 

[isaacalsop]

Can simebody plz tell me what dealing with economic issues even means?

 

[josh987654321]

May I ask, would people be saying these same things if ‘Murder’ was no longer a crime? and may I ask, how is abortion different to murder?

I believe 1. is first and foremost, most important.

I believe the only reason people can view it differently is because we ourselves are ‘out of the womb’ and are therefore ‘safe’ from falling victim to this most unjust crime, I believe if everyone else also had the risk of falling victim to this crime, everyone would be selecting 1. quick smart and in a hurry.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[isaacalsop]

May I ask, would people be saying these same things if ‘Murder’ was no longer a crime? and may I ask, how is abortion different to murder?

Thank you for reading
Josh

Well you have a very good point…and most see murder as wrong but itd be even worse if abortion was thought of as ok but illegal. I hope ppl will learn that we must change hearts and minds of the people, not the government,

 

[josh987654321]

Well you have a very good point…and most see murder as wrong but itd be even worse if abortion was thought of as ok but illegal. I hope ppl will learn that we must change hearts and minds of the people, not the government,

I understand, but I feel that, that is secondary, just like if ‘Murder’ was no longer a crime, first and foremost, would be to criminalize it again, than we can change the hearts and minds of the public on the issue, or do it both at the same time, but I strongly believe that 1. cannot and must not be forsaken.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[isaacalsop]

I understand, but I feel that, that is secondary, just like if ‘Murder’ was no longer a crime, first and foremost, would be to criminalize it again, than we can change the hearts and minds of the public on the issue, or do it both at the same time, but I strongly believe that 1. cannot and must not be forsaken.

Thank you for reading
Josh

Very true! All of these options are important, I just think number 1 is secondary to 3. f we do 3 and 1 I guess we are doing 4.

 

[josh987654321]

Very true! All of these options are important,

I agree.

I just think number 1 is secondary to 3. f we do 3 and 1 I guess we are doing 4.

I just don’t want politicians or others to say to themselves something like 3. 2. or 4. when they are in a position to influence or achieve 1.

I guess I would say that they are all equally as important, as 1. 2. 3. and 4. all help one another, so I guess I would implore all of the above.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Kamaduck]

I think all of the options are good, but ultimately 1. is the most important I believe. I am suprised only a small few (11%, 5 including me and longing soul) selected 1.

I believe If one of us were watching a woman getting beaten by her husband, I doubt we would simply walk away saying “we should instead address the root causes of spousal abuse” or “we should change peoples views of spousal abuse” and let him continue beating his wife. I mean sure, we can and should address the root causes of spousal abuse and work to change societies views (if they were for it), but wouldn’t people agree that, that is secodary to first and foremost stopping him from beating his wife to death?

Thank you for reading
Josh

I get what you’re saying, so let me see if I can explain why I’m most on board with #2.

In your example, I absolutely think that we would need to physically stop the man from beating his wife. But that situation is different- not because the sin is more heinous, but because we all agree that spousal abuse is wrong. To capture the abortion situation, we would need to assume that 1/3 of husbands beat their wives, and that more than half of the country supports their right to beat their wives.

With such widespread support, making it illegal is ineffective. How can we expect the police to jail an additional 1/6 of the population? How can we expect people to report instances of spousal abuse when they see it as normal and OK? We can’t. It’ll go the way of recreational drugs and internet piracy, even if the police enforce the law to the best of their ability- it’ll be the law that everybody seems to break, and that nobody seems to take very seriously.

That’s why I put #1 last- because I know how many people break the law on a regular basis, and it is downright ludicrous to think we can end abortion by sending all the women who have them to prison. It won’t work. The prisons are overcrowded as it is from the drug problems. There’s simply no way we can send that many women to prison, and not see a huge, huge backlash from the populace.

If we have a chance to stop an individual abortion, of course we have an obligation to do it. But I think it’s naive to think we can sick the law enforcement on young women and think that that will solve the problem. It won’t. It’ll just make everything worse. If we want to end abortion- really end it, not just shave off a few deaths- then we need to bring society back to valuing the lives of children. And if we’re going to value children, we must provide support to their mothers, and we must bring the culture back to a healthy understanding of what sex is for.

I am of the opinion that providing support to mothers will give us the most mileage per unit of effort, because the left also supports it. Instead of fighting them at every step, we would be able to work together in the few areas that we agree on. Nobody’s going to come after us for saying that single moms need assistance, whether from the government or from our individual communities, and whether it’s in the form of free/cheap childcare, education for their children, food and clothing, or a person to talk to them and see what exactly they are in need of.

That’s how you do #4 in the end. You prove that you care about people, by giving them concrete assistance.

 

[sallybutler]

Tell your daughter you will love her no matter what. Tell her you hope she will not chose abortion. Take care of her and the child if she does not have an abortion.

Apparently, there was a study done that said families that ate dinners together where the children were involved in all sorts of discussion s had lower rates of unwanted pregnancies suggests that communication and love does more to prevent unwanted behaviour than anything else.

 

[josh987654321]

I get what you’re saying, so let me see if I can explain why I’m most on board with #2.

In your example, I absolutely think that we would need to physically stop the man from beating his wife. But that situation is different- not because the sin is more heinous, but because we all agree that spousal abuse is wrong. To capture the abortion situation, we would need to assume that 1/3 of husbands beat their wives, and that more than half of the country supports their right to beat their wives.

With such widespread support, making it illegal is ineffective. How can we expect the police to jail an additional 1/6 of the population? How can we expect people to report instances of spousal abuse when they see it as normal and OK? We can’t. It’ll go the way of recreational drugs and internet piracy, even if the police enforce the law to the best of their ability- it’ll be the law that everybody seems to break, and that nobody seems to take very seriously.

That’s why I put #1 last- because I know how many people break the law on a regular basis, and it is downright ludicrous to think we can end abortion by sending all the women who have them to prison. It won’t work. The prisons are overcrowded as it is from the drug problems. There’s simply no way we can send that many women to prison, and not see a huge, huge backlash from the populace.

If we have a chance to stop an individual abortion, of course we have an obligation to do it. But I think it’s naive to think we can sick the law enforcement on young women and think that that will solve the problem. It won’t. It’ll just make everything worse. If we want to end abortion- really end it, not just shave off a few deaths- then we need to bring society back to valuing the lives of children. And if we’re going to value children, we must provide support to their mothers, and we must bring the culture back to a healthy understanding of what sex is for.

I am of the opinion that providing support to mothers will give us the most mileage per unit of effort, because the left also supports it. Instead of fighting them at every step, we would be able to work together in the few areas that we agree on. Nobody’s going to come after us for saying that single moms need assistance, whether from the government or from our individual communities, and whether it’s in the form of free/cheap childcare, education for their children, food and clothing, or a person to talk to them and see what exactly they are in need of.

That’s how you do #4 in the end. You prove that you care about people, by giving them concrete assistance.

I understand, if we have not reached the hearts and minds of the majority of the population, than I agree that option 1 will never work. But I also believe it’s a mistake to not strive for option 1 too. And I don’t mean jailing women, but rather shutting down abortion clinics etc, even a law requiring women to get an ultrasound of their baby before they have an abortion would be a great idea, anything we can achieve through the law which is a step in the right direction.

But as I said in my previous post, I would have to say that I believe they are all equally as improtant and all rely on one another, so I would implore all of the above.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

.

You also just reminded me of a quote I got from the movie “Lincoln” by Steven Spielberg. He said to the one who wanted to free the african american slaves and give them the same legal rights as everyone else, he said “A compass points north, but suppose you go north without any regard for the obstacles you are going to encouter along the way only to fall into a chasm or to drown in a swamp, what was the point of knowing north?”

So the bill he got through wasn’t what it ought to be, but it was a large step in the right direction and had he have pushed it all the way to what it ought to have been, like some others wanted him to do, the bill would never have gotten through at all.

So I guess my main goal would be getting men and women’s compasses pointing north on this issue as you have said with number 3 isaacalsop and than the rest will follow.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[pnewton]

I
I just don’t want politicians or others to say to themselves something like 3. 2. or 4. when they are in a position to influence or achieve.

I think politicians are in a whole world of hurt when they ignore, or fail to do the right thing, in any of these areas, at least to the extent they can actual vote on specific measures. For them, compromise is not really an option. The negative side of representative democracy (to use the word loosely) is that we are not in a situation as voters that we can directly vote on laws.

This is why this thread was started and why I did not give an “all the above”. Of course, to paraphrase the Holy Father, all values are non-negotiable. If we lived in a democracy, then we would be able to vote on each issue. Under the current government (in the US) we have to prioritize and weigh, not only values, but effectiveness.

 

[Holly3278]

I think that reversing the culture of death, reducing sexual immorality, and placing legal restrictions (hopefully with someday making it completely illegal) are all good ideas. I can’t remember what the other option was because I can’t see the poll and I have a poor short term memory.

 

[The_Reginator]

Seriously, though, we must first begin with prayer. This is a spiritual battle,** For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens** (Ephesians 6:12). Some very hardened abortion providers have been converted by the power of prayer.

Once we have prayed, which of the actions to emphasize in a given time or situation will be made clear to us.