Abortion: What is the Right Choice?

[vern_humphrey]

Fascinating.

So then we agree that there would need to be a government entity that would register pregnancies, and who would investigate pregnancies that terminate abruptly and in suspect fashion?

This could perhaps be combined with some sort of reporting duty for doctors, so that once a woman is pregnant we would know if something untoward happens to the fetus.

Does this sound like what you had in mind, Vern?

No, it doesn’t sound like what I had in mind.

It sounds like what you had in mind – a vicious smear on anyone who disagrees with you.

 

[SFTor]

No, it doesn’t sound like what I had in mind.

It sounds like what you had in mind – a vicious smear on anyone who disagrees with you.

How are you going to protect the unborn unless you police pregnant women, Vern?

Remember, we’re not talking about a bunch of nice, Catholic women from good families here.

We’re talking about the American population here, a hodge-podge of moral and immoral people. We know they need to be policed.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I am not suggesting that the government would investigate every miscarriage. I am suggesting that the government would investigate every suspicious miscarriage, just like they would investigate any other suspicious death. I assume it would be a job for neighbors or family to keep the police informed about suspicious activities.

You implied it by saying:

A pregnant woman has a miscarriage. The police finds a pill jar of Queen Anne’s lace, an herb known to be used for abortions, in her cupboard. It does however have many other uses. Will the police have to investigate it as a potentially wrongful death, and potentially prosecute?

You said a woman has a miscarriage. You never explained to me what the police was doing looking around her cupboards? If it’s a miscarriage, why the suspicion?

You are presenting scenarios that are not going to occur.

So then we agree that there would need to be a government entity that would register pregnancies, and who would investigate pregnancies that terminate abruptly and in suspect fashion?

This could perhaps be combined with some sort of reporting duty for doctors, so that once a woman is pregnant we would know if something untoward happens to the fetus

I guess home pregnancy tests will be dispensed by prescription only? Or perhaps they can be taken off the market completely, and if a woman wants to find out she is pregnant she could go to the “government entity” to find out.

 

[vern_humphrey]

How are you going to protect the unborn unless you police pregnant women, Vern?

Remember, we’re not talking about a bunch of nice, Catholic women from good families here.

We’re talking about the American population here, a hodge-podge of moral and immoral people. We know they need to be policed.

How do we already police them?

Do we assign a police officer to each citizen, 24 hours a day, to be sure that citizen doesn’t commit a crime? Do we have to have a traffic cop by each stop sign, to be sure people don’t run it? And do we have to hire another traffic cop each time we put up a new stop sign?

Your argument is sophistry – there is no additional agency needed, and and no added police required.

 

[SFTor]

You implied it by saying:

You said a woman has a miscarriage. You never explained to me what the police was doing looking around her cupboards? If it’s a miscarriage, why the suspicion?

You are presenting scenarios that are not going to occur.

I guess home pregnancy tests will be dispensed by prescription only? Or perhaps they can be taken off the market completely, and if a woman wants to find out she is pregnant she could go to the “government entity” to find out.

If life begins at birth, then a miscarriage is either a natural death, or it is a wrongful death. It would be up to a medical professional to determine that based on the circumstances—which certainly would include checking for toxic substances in the fetal tissue. Like in any other deaths it would be necessary to obtain a death certificate. A regular miscarriage would result in a clean death certificate. If the future mother has engaged in risky behavior, negligence, or is suspected of having caused the miscarriage, you would have an investigation into the death, with a possible prosecution.

 

[vern_humphrey]

If life begins at birth, then a miscarriage is either a natural death, or it is a wrongful death. It would be up to a medical professional to determine that based on the circumstances. Like in any other deaths it would be necessary to obtain a death certificate. A regular miscarriage would result in a clean death certificate. If the future mother has engaged in risky behavior, negligence, or is suspected of having caused the miscarriage, you would have in investigation into the death, with a possible prosecution.

'Fess up – you’re really Phil Donohue, aren’t you?

 

[SFTor]

'Fess up – you’re really Phil Donohue, aren’t you?

I sure could need some of his money…can you send me some?forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

[SFTor]

You implied it by saying:

You said a woman has a miscarriage. You never explained to me what the police was doing looking around her cupboards? If it’s a miscarriage, why the suspicion?

You are presenting scenarios that are not going to occur.

I guess home pregnancy tests will be dispensed by prescription only? Or perhaps they can be taken off the market completely, and if a woman wants to find out she is pregnant she could go to the “government entity” to find out.

I also thought about the problem with pregnancy kits. I suppose it would be best to take them off the market if one wanted to increase the level of control.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I also thought about the problem with pregnancy kits. I suppose it would be best to take them off the market if one wanted to increase the level of control.

And which pro-life organization agrees with this?

This is something you actually believe?

 

[Oscarthecat]

How are you going to protect the unborn unless you police pregnant women, Vern?

Remember, we’re not talking about a bunch of nice, Catholic women from good families here.

We’re talking about the American population here, a hodge-podge of moral and immoral people. We know they need to be policed.

This argument is ridiculous. But I wonder if it is because you sincerely think you’ve made a good point? Or is it because you can’t defend your position further so you’re just becoming sarcastic? or because you realize your position is untenable but aren’t willing to concede the point and seriously examine your own values?

Assuming you sincerely believe your position, it sounds like you’re trying to start withthe idea that a well ordered society made up of diverse individuals strives to maintain an acceptable level of personal freedom by respecting the rights and responsibilities of its members, without disintegrating into a police state. From this position you appear to conclude that we shouldn’t protect unborn babies from people who want to abort them specifically because there are people in the world who want to abort them. Finally, you assert that the protection of unborn babies from those who want to abort them would be sufficiently difficult and cumbersome so as to warrant simply ignoring or denying the human rights of those who are targetted for murder.

So, based on that logic, we also shouldn’t protect property because there are people who want to steal or damage it, right? After all, we live in a hodge-podge of moral and immoral people, and some immoral people simply want to destroy others’ property. How can we be expected, as a society, to stop such things? Do we need to assign police officers to every piece of property???

Or, based on your logic, why should we have laws against slavery? I’m sure that somewhere in this wacky hodge-podge of saints and sinners we call America there are people who want to use slaves, right? But why should we pass laws protecting individual liberty??? What do people expect us to do? Assign a police officer to every individual to ensure that nobody is forced into slavery??

Or, here’s another one- why did the founding fathers take the time to mention “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness” as inalienable rights? Are we supposed to create a government department of “Happiness Police” who are assigned to each individual person to force them to pursue happiness all the time and punish those who are not happy?

I could go on all day coming up with ridiculous applications of your position.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Kathleen Elsie, let me ask you a question:

Let’s say we change the law. Personhood is now conferred at conception.

A pregnant woman goes skiing, and takes a hard fall. She has a miscarriage hours afterwards. Is she guilty of reckless endangerment, or even involuntary manslaughter, and must be tried, convicted, and punished? Only if the miscarrage was an intentional act.

A pregnant woman has a miscarriage. The police finds a pill jar of Queen Anne’s lace, an herb known to be used for abortions, in her cupboard. It does however have many other uses. Will the police have to investigate it as a potentially wrongful death, and potentially prosecute? The woman that goes into the hospital would be checked for drugs as part of the admitting process no matter why she was admitted.

A woman is seen drinking and smoking. A neighbor believes she is pregnant due to an overheard conversation. Does the police need to be called in case the woman is exposing her baby to reckless endangerment? In my humble opinion a neighbour whould talk to the woman and tey to get her to take better care opf her pregnancy.

If she is, and refuses to stop, does the State then need to put her under confinement to protect the rights of the child? This has already happened.

A man takes a pregnant woman on a motorcycle ride. They drive over a particularly bad piece of road that causes several severe jolts to the woman’s uterus, and she has a miscarriage. Is he guilty of reckless endangerment or involuntary manslaughter? This one is just my opinion. I don’t like motorcycles in the first place and think any one that rides as a passanger is being recklessly endangered. If the driver knew the woman was pregnate and took her on this ride any way then it could very well be reckless endangerment.

Take a look, let me know how you feel about all or some of them.

Let me ask this back. If someone causes the death of another person with malice of forethought do you think he or she should be prosecuted?

 

[Julian_Peters]

Thank you to all who have participated. This thread is now closed.