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Decado
Guest
When the sperm hits the egg? Is this when the soul enters the embryo?
Decado
Decado
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Tietjen
Guest
At conception there is life. That life is human. Humans are different than other species in that we have eternal souls. Therefore, a human person IS created at conception.
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passus
Guest
A few things:
- A person is created at the moment of conception. At this moment, God infuses a soul.
- The moment of conception is not when the sperm hits the egg. It is a few moments after the sperm has penetrated the egg that the egg has been fertilized and a new entity actually formed.
- The new entity is not called an embryo until it reaches the uterus and has implanted itself in the uterine wall. At conception, the new life is properly called a zygote.
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Decado
Guest
You say humans have eternal souls, but obviously a sperm and an egg are not human. Are you saying that when the cells meet, the soul is created?
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Decado
Guest
Okay, thank you.
What happens when an zygote splits? Is the soul split in half? Does God make a new soul? What about conjoined twins? Are they two souls, or one?
These 2 points are of course correct. Apologies for getting lazy with the terminology.
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Decado
Guest
I should clarify the reason for “Abortion” showing up in this thread title.
It seems to me that the major sticking point for abortion is – whether people want to talk about it or not – ultimately a question about souls. The real question is, “When is this clump of cells a human?”
If you believe in souls, it seems the answer is quite straight forward. If you do not, the question takes on a significantly heavier aspect, as now you’re in the business of making decisions on the matter. If you believe in souls, the question of humanity is effectively taken out of your hands. If you do not, you are taking morality into your own hands.
Figuring out when a person becomes a person is the first step in unraveling all of that.
It seems to me that the major sticking point for abortion is – whether people want to talk about it or not – ultimately a question about souls. The real question is, “When is this clump of cells a human?”
If you believe in souls, it seems the answer is quite straight forward. If you do not, the question takes on a significantly heavier aspect, as now you’re in the business of making decisions on the matter. If you believe in souls, the question of humanity is effectively taken out of your hands. If you do not, you are taking morality into your own hands.
Figuring out when a person becomes a person is the first step in unraveling all of that.
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passus
Guest
Yes, the particular soul is created and infused by God at the moment of conception.
A soul cannot split in half because a soul does not have material properties which can split or be measured as, for example, two halves of a whole.
It is understood that in the case of monozygotic twins, when a zygote is destined to split into two embryos, there were originally two souls imbued at the moment of conception–one for each of the twins that would result.
Don’t worry about it.
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Decado
Guest
- It is understood? How so? By whom?
- “Destined”?
- You have to admit this sounds awfully post hoc. Not disagreeing outright, just a little skeptical. God knows there’s going to be two embryos, so he gives the zygote two souls?
Well thanks for correcting me anyways.Don’t worry about it.
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vera_dicere
Guest
A “person” is created at birth - “person” is a legal term, in most countries at least, and that legal definition begins at birth.
However at the moment of conception a new human being is created, just because the law doesn’t recognise it doesn’t negate the fact of its humanity. At the moment of conception the soul exists. As God is the one who bestows a soul, and cos he knows everything, it stands to reason that God flicks two down if there are twins or triplets or whatever.
Just like he knows if the conception is going to be a hydatiform mole or a non-viable blob or cancer.
However at the moment of conception a new human being is created, just because the law doesn’t recognise it doesn’t negate the fact of its humanity. At the moment of conception the soul exists. As God is the one who bestows a soul, and cos he knows everything, it stands to reason that God flicks two down if there are twins or triplets or whatever.
Just like he knows if the conception is going to be a hydatiform mole or a non-viable blob or cancer.
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c659smith
Guest
How can a person be Christian and in anyway support abortion at any time or place?
This includes politicians that say they are Christian and vote for laws promoting or sustaining the rights of Pro-Choice laws.
This includes politicians that say they are Christian and vote for laws promoting or sustaining the rights of Pro-Choice laws.
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Spirithound
Guest
A fertilized egg must be a person since nothing new is ever added to it.
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raindr0ps
Guest
True, although if you look at the first definition for person, you’ll see that it is a “human being”
If you look at the definition for human you see that #2. is “Any living or extinct member of the family Hominidae.”
the definition for “being” is
- The state or fact of existing: “a point of view gradually coming into being”; “laws in existence for centuries”.
- A living (or once living) entity that has (or can develop) the ability to act or function independently.
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Decado
Guest
I suppose I am not comfortable with this idea, then.
Could you explain this? I’m not sure I follow.
Raindr0ps,
I don’t think that anybody doubts zygotes are alive – the big questions is, When is it a human being? If you posit humanity requires a soul, and that a zygote has a soul, then the question is answered for you. If you do not believe that zygotes have a soul (or if you doubt souls exist at all) then defining humanity is altogether a different task.
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survive
Guest
The sperm actually never "hits’ the egg; this is a piece of slangy misunderstanding that can trivialize the issue. Three or four eggs glide into place in the tube. Thousands of spermatozoa swim and dart in all directions until they chemically sense ova, which in turn sense them. When there is one baby being created, the healthiest and most intact sperm find one egg, usually the healthiest one, but sometimes just the one in front, depending on many factors. They circle it, DNA upfront, and send chemical signals, which the egg responds to with other chemical signals. The healthiest sperm (or occasioanlly just the one that somehow ended up closest) sends the strongest signals. This induces both cells – the winner egg and the winner sperm – first to split in two in a process called meiosis, then to move their DNA toward their interface and thin their membranes. The interface closes in and the sperm’s DNA passes through. The two parents’ DNA reacts and becomes a new molecule with its own chemical properties. The sperm, the losing eggs, and the split leftovers, along with the outer membrane of the zygote, fall apart and break down into basic molecular components. The zygote grows and goes through several chemical reactions, making her/him a different type of cell. This all takes one second. Anytime during this process I suppose could be when the new soul comes into being, but it seems reasonable that it is when the DNA begin to react, when the electrostatic pull of one set attracts the other. It’s at that instant that the two molecules are in a kind of contact and affecting each other’s chemistry.
In the case of identical twins, I believe that the first soul is created at fertilization, and when the zygote divides, nromally the two cells remain part of one body, but when one takes up a new solitary life, there is a new soul, created at the time of division. One twin is perhaps as much as a day younger than the other. With chimerae, I believe there are two souls, and one dies.
It’s interesting that people who were twins inthe womb but whose twins died before birth often grow up knowing they have twins, though no one told them.
In the case of identical twins, I believe that the first soul is created at fertilization, and when the zygote divides, nromally the two cells remain part of one body, but when one takes up a new solitary life, there is a new soul, created at the time of division. One twin is perhaps as much as a day younger than the other. With chimerae, I believe there are two souls, and one dies.
It’s interesting that people who were twins inthe womb but whose twins died before birth often grow up knowing they have twins, though no one told them.
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Spirithound
Guest
Sure. The only ingredient, so to speak, is an egg and a sperm. The baby does receive nutrition, but everybody does, throughout their lives, that doesn’t make my parents more of people than me.
The essential components necessary for new life are egg and sperm.
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c659smith
Guest
The legal definition in most 50 states is at conception.
The murder case involving Petersen even in California resulted in the conviction of a double murder. The second was the baby in the womb.
Manslaughter convictions in all 50 states when drunk drivers cause the death of a baby in the Womb during crashes.
Felony convictions on Mothers who take drugs during their pregnancy causing harm to their baby in the womb.
Murder convictions of women trying to self induce abortion or having anyone other than an approved abortionist complete an abortion.
Legally the baby in the womb is a person, science states the baby in the womb is a person, and common sense lets you know the baby in the womb is a person.
The Supreme Court when a legal abortion is done states it is the right of the mother to committ murdrer. they never said the baby in the womb was not a person
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Orogeny
Guest
If one does not know definitively when a “human” is formed, the only moral choice is to go to the beginning. Otherwise, a human may be denied its most basic right, the right to life, based on an entirely arbitrary definition.
Peace
Tim
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chris_molter
Guest
Why is it illegal to destroy Bald Eagle eggs?
We have our priorties so amazingly skewed…
We have our priorties so amazingly skewed…
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06convert
Guest
Mostly incorrect:
As Catholics: The reason we are against birth control is because we believe that we exist on a spiritual level before the act of intercourse even takes place. It has nothing to do with the sperm hitting the egg or becoming attached or whatever else is going around on this thread. Our definition of “conceive” is the moment God put us in His mind. Not the moment our mothers become pregnant.
God says that he knew us before we were conceived in the womb. We are a unique spiritual being before our parents even have intercourse, before the sperm or the egg have anything to do with it. God creates our soul when we are in essense “a glimmer in our daddy’s eye”.
As Catholics: The reason we are against birth control is because we believe that we exist on a spiritual level before the act of intercourse even takes place. It has nothing to do with the sperm hitting the egg or becoming attached or whatever else is going around on this thread. Our definition of “conceive” is the moment God put us in His mind. Not the moment our mothers become pregnant.
God says that he knew us before we were conceived in the womb. We are a unique spiritual being before our parents even have intercourse, before the sperm or the egg have anything to do with it. God creates our soul when we are in essense “a glimmer in our daddy’s eye”.
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JRKH
Guest
I know I’m jumping in a bit late and haven’t read all the responses but here is my 2c
As to the question of when, “is this clump of cells a human”, there are really only two answers to that. One is scientific and the other is Legal.
Scientifically everything that makes one human as opposed to anything else is present at conception - One cell, One human. If this cell is allowed to progress normally, it will divide and begin the process of growth, maturing and aging until a natural death. Many things will change during the course of it’s lifetime from growing arms and fingers, to growing old and frail. But one thing will never change. The number of Chromozones in it’s genes.
Legally the definition is more muddy. Basically it is not considered a human until it is born, that is why “Late term” abortions are allowed. Even though the fetus is completely viable, it can still be killed legally. Of course if a woman Schedules an Abortion at 8 months and the Baby is born the next day, she cannot kill it because, Legally, now it’s a human.
In neither of these arguments is the subject of souls important. What is important is whether it is human and thus murder to kill it. Science tells us it is indeed human. The Law defines it differently. So which should take precidence here. The Law or the Science.
Our humanity begins at conception. The right number of Chromosones WILL produce a fully grown and functioning human being if permitted to grow. If it is not permitted to grow, we have the corpse of a human being whether it looks like one or not.
Peace
James
Actually we don’t need to ask the question about souls to determine the humanity of someone, or if it is right to Kill a Human. Murder outside the womb is illegal. That is the Law and the Law has nothing to do with the posession of a soul.
As to the question of when, “is this clump of cells a human”, there are really only two answers to that. One is scientific and the other is Legal.
Scientifically everything that makes one human as opposed to anything else is present at conception - One cell, One human. If this cell is allowed to progress normally, it will divide and begin the process of growth, maturing and aging until a natural death. Many things will change during the course of it’s lifetime from growing arms and fingers, to growing old and frail. But one thing will never change. The number of Chromozones in it’s genes.
Legally the definition is more muddy. Basically it is not considered a human until it is born, that is why “Late term” abortions are allowed. Even though the fetus is completely viable, it can still be killed legally. Of course if a woman Schedules an Abortion at 8 months and the Baby is born the next day, she cannot kill it because, Legally, now it’s a human.
In neither of these arguments is the subject of souls important. What is important is whether it is human and thus murder to kill it. Science tells us it is indeed human. The Law defines it differently. So which should take precidence here. The Law or the Science.
Our humanity begins at conception. The right number of Chromosones WILL produce a fully grown and functioning human being if permitted to grow. If it is not permitted to grow, we have the corpse of a human being whether it looks like one or not.
Peace
James
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