Abortion worse than the Holocaust

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I think the abortion issue is worst than the Holocaust. Six million Jews were killed during Hitler’s plan to wipe them out.

When I was reading Wikipedia on abortion. 46 million abortions are done worldwide and 24 million of them them are done in countries were it is legal.

In the US, that’s 24 million babiesx 34 yrs (34 since Roe v. Wade), that’s 817 million babies killed. It could well top 1.6 billion babies killed. So far this is the worst mass killing of unborn human beings.
 
I think the abortion issue is worst than the Holocaust. Six million Jews were killed during Hitler’s plan to wipe them out.

When I was reading Wikipedia on abortion. 46 million abortions are done worldwide and 24 million of them them are done in countries were it is legal.

In the US, that’s 24 million babiesx 34 yrs (34 since Roe v. Wade), that’s 817 million babies killed. It could well top 1.6 billion babies killed. So far this is the worst mass killing of unborn human beings.
This is just too horrific to contemplate. I agree, never have so many innocent people been killed on such an enormous scale as this. This is mass murder as we’ve never seen it before.
And all in the name of ‘choice’. It’s sickening. Sometimes I wonder why God does not destroy us for all the evil that goes on.
 
It is really hard to swallow. And it is really hard to believe that so many people around us are pro-choice. I just found out that my room mate is pro-choice. It was certainly in punch in the gut. I am having trouble looking at him the same way. I cannot believe that my room mate believes that this form of genocide should be legal.
 
Because anyone can edit virtually anything, I would never trust Wikipedia as a reference source. I think their numbers may be exaggerated. Far more reliable, I think, would be the web sites for either Priests for Life or Human Life International. The total numbers for the US since Roe v. Wade, I have been led to believe, are around 50 million abortions.

But let’s not quibble over the numbers. *** A single abortion is far, far too many! ***

In Judaism there is a saying that to kill [murder] one person is to kill a whole race, or something to that effect. Oy, yoy yoy! Lord have mercy on us all!

God Bless,
Jeff
 
Nazi’s killed 3/4 European Jews: 6 million.

US abortions each year: 1.3-1.6 million

Communist Genocide: 100 million since Bolshevak Revoluion (sp?)
 
It is really hard to swallow. And it is really hard to believe that so many people around us are pro-choice. I just found out that my room mate is pro-choice. It was certainly in punch in the gut. I am having trouble looking at him the same way. I cannot believe that my room mate believes that this form of genocide should be legal.
I dont think that you should use such terms a genocide so lightly. In quite a lot of cases, terms like “mercy” and “compassion” are more appropiate.
 
Elric,

For too many years people of good will have been too passive because they follow society’s version or definition of compassion.

If we don’t want people to die and our best chance of saving their lives is to show others their victimization, that is the most compassionate thing we can do for both groups. Truth is compassion, hiding from the reality because it is difficult to look at is standing on the sidelines not making a difference.
 
Elric,

For too many years people of good will have been too passive because they follow society’s version or definition of compassion.
Possibly, that can depend on which society is being discussed. But that wasnt what I meant by compassion or mercy.
If we don’t want people to die and our best chance of saving their lives is to show others their victimization, that is the most compassionate thing we can do for both groups. Truth is compassion, hiding from the reality because it is difficult to look at is standing on the sidelines not making a difference.
But who exactly are you saving and who are you destroying?

You are making a blanket statement about abortion and assuming that I am doing the same, Im not.

Abortion is not always necessary, but there are occasions when abortion is the most merciful and compassionate thing for both the expecting mother and the unborn child.
 
Elric,

Apparently you’ve never seen the reality of abortion. I recently created a video of medical video photoage of what abortion looks like. Please take a look:
youtube.com/watch?v=4r-9AMvIkK0

No one with a conscience can honestly say that the reality of abortion is compassionate.
 
Elric,

Apparently you’ve never seen the reality of abortion. I recently created a video of medical video photoage of what abortion looks like. Please take a look:
youtube.com/watch?v=4r-9AMvIkK0

No one with a conscience can honestly say that the reality of abortion is compassionate.
So what exactly is that meant to show/prove?

All it shows is that you would rather jump to (negative) conclusions and try to pass a negative judgment on everyone. It doesnt look into the circumstances as to why such a procedure could be necessary, it just shows basically the “end result”.

Your even taring me with the same negative result with the “conscience” and “never seen the reality” comments.

Im sorry, but your movie is hardly a convincing argument.
 
Elric,

That movie shocks anyone with a functioning conscience to say that abortion is never acceptable for any reason.

I’m sorry but after seeing that movie and for you to still claim that abortion is ever justified shows me and others that your conscience isn’t functioning. That video is the worst thing that another human being can ever see with their eyes, the deliberate violent extermination of an unborn human being.

This can’t be justified. There are no medical reasons that abortion ever needs to be performed on a living baby.

Just so there’s no hiding it… this is what you support Elric just incase you are one of the people who won’t look at the reality of abortion.

[Mod edit: graphic photo removed for the protection of our youngest members]
 
Elric,

That movie shocks anyone with a functioning conscience to say that abortion is never acceptable for any reason.
No, that movie is geared to intiidate/scare people into siding with your point of view. Adding terms like “functioning conscience” to it is simply a way to guilt people in siding with your point of view.

It has nothing at all to do with conscience and does not address the complete issue, just selective parts.
I’m sorry but after seeing that movie and for you to still claim that abortion is ever justified shows me and others that your conscience isn’t functioning. That video is the worst thing that another human being can ever see with their eyes, the deliberate violent extermination of an unborn human being.
The movie is very graphic and shocking, true. But there are many images that are as disturbing or more so than your film.

My conscience if functioning fine, but you making statments like that actually raises questions about your own conscience and your ability to understand things. Abortion is not always a black and white issue.
This can’t be justified. There are no medical reasons that abortion ever needs to be performed on a living baby.
I think that even you know that this isnt true.

One example: A pregnant woman tries to carry the baby full term and/or give birth, she WILL die. Not necessary?

Its perfectly fine for the mother to die?
Just so there’s no hiding it… this is what you support Elric just incase you are one of the people who won’t look at the reality of abortion.
Actually it seems that I am more prepared to look at the reality of abortion than you are. What I support is looking at the whole situation (rather than intimidating people with just one part of it), looking at it on an individual basis and allowing mercy, compassion and forgivness for ALL involved come into it.

Isnt that something that you should do?
 
No, that movie is geared to intiidate/scare people into siding with your point of view. Adding terms like “functioning conscience” to it is simply a way to guilt people in siding with your point of view.

It has nothing at all to do with conscience and does not address the complete issue, just selective parts.
How is the movie “geared to intimidate or scare” if it’s presenting the reality of the situation? Why is that disingenuous?
The movie is very graphic and shocking, true. But there are many images that are as disturbing or more so than your film.
So true. And yet, that doesn’t mitigate the horror that is abortion. It is, simply put, the dismemberment of a human being who cannot defend him/herself.
My conscience if functioning fine, but you making statments like that actually raises questions about your own conscience and your ability to understand things. Abortion is not always a black and white issue.
You are saying, in essence, that there are some times when it is acceptable to dismember a living human being.
I think that even you know that this isnt true.
One example: A pregnant woman tries to carry the baby full term and/or give birth, she WILL die. Not necessary?
Its perfectly fine for the mother to die?
As Christ said, there is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for another. What greater act of motherhood is there than to willingly accept the distinct possibility of death so that the child has a chance at life?

Furthermore, you completely discount the possibility of miracles, not to mention the fact that a doctor’s prognosis of imminent death could be wrong.

When in doubt, err on the side of saving the child’s life. Who are we to say, “I must live, even if it means my child must die”?
Actually it seems that I am more prepared to look at the reality of abortion than you are. What I support is looking at the whole situation (rather than intimidating people with just one part of it), looking at it on an individual basis and allowing mercy, compassion and forgivness for ALL involved come into it. Isnt that something that you should do?
“Intimidating people with just one part of it”?

The basis for any decision we make must always include the consequences the decision will have for other people. This is not a morally neutral choice, like whether to get the mail now or later; this choice involves whether or not to kill another human being! It is absurd and intellectually indefensible to suggest that showing such a video to people in order to change their minds is one-sided.

Showing the actual, tangible consequence of the choice is being truthful. Saying that we have to take each situation at face value, when the life of a human being is at stake, is intellectually dishonest because it precludes the evaluation of the whole truth and its implications.

Peace,
Dante
 
The total numbers for the US since Roe v. Wade, I have been led to believe, are around 50 million abortions.
But the US is not the only place it is happening. The math is flawed in the original post because different countries have legalized it at different times, etc…

But around the world it has been around several hundred million since the 60’s.
 
How is the movie “geared to intimidate or scare” if it’s presenting the reality of the situation? Why is that disingenuous?
All it shows is graphic images, there are no statments/interviews from people who have had abortions, considered abortions, medical professionals, councillers or anyone else that could shed more truth on the issue.

I just shows one graphic part at the exclusion of the rest.
So true. And yet, that doesn’t mitigate the horror that is abortion. It is, simply put, the dismemberment of a human being who cannot defend him/herself.
So is amputation. But in some cases it is necessary.
You are saying, in essence, that there are some times when it is acceptable to dismember a living human being.
If you want to put it that way. But those images looked pretty intact to me.

Abortions are sometimes necessary for a lot of reasons, that certainly doesnt mean that every one is justified or necessary.
As Christ said, there is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for another. What greater act of motherhood is there than to willingly accept the distinct possibility of death so that the child has a chance at life?
So its perfectly fine to kill one person but not another.

What was it that was said about babies that die?
Furthermore, you completely discount the possibility of miracles, not to mention the fact that a doctor’s prognosis of imminent death could be wrong.
The doctor being wrong isnt a fact, its a possibility. What I am considering is what would be more merciful.
When in doubt, err on the side of saving the child’s life. Who are we to say, “I must live, even if it means my child must die”?
Who are you to say the oppisite?

What a redicilous comment to make. I have actually been in the situation where I did have to consider that choice, it is not an easy one to consider.
“Intimidating people with just one part of it”?

The basis for any decision we make must always include the consequences the decision will have for other people. This is not a morally neutral choice, like whether to get the mail now or later; this choice involves whether or not to kill another human being! It is absurd and intellectually indefensible to suggest that showing such a video to people in order to change their minds is one-sided.
I didnt say that it was one sided, I said that it was one part of the whole issue/situation. But you are right, it is one sided.

That film does not show that there are consequences of others. Where exactly in that film was the thought process or the circumstances that lead up to that shown?

Where was the aftermath for the others involved in the abortion?

It only shows one part of a complex and extremly difficult situation.

I dont believe that you understand my point of view at all if you believe that it is a morally neutral choice or that I am unaware that the killing of another human being is involved.
Showing the actual, tangible consequence of the choice is being truthful. Saying that we have to take each situation at face value, when the life of a human being is at stake, is intellectually dishonest because it precludes the evaluation of the whole truth and its implications.

Peace,
Dante
No it is NOT being truthful, it is only showing part of the truth and that is the graphic display of the end product of the procedure. The truth of it doesnt beging there and it doesnt end there.

I NEVER said that we take each situation at face value and to suggest that I did is being dishonest.

Showing people one part of an issue however, is being dishonest as is blinding yourself to the whole issue by focusing on one part of it.
 
At the risk of inflaming the argument further (and I know this post is going to get jumped on):

When a child is going to be born into poverty, into hunger, and want, when a child is going to be born into abuse, violence, exposure to alchohol and drugs, when a child is going to be born to a mother that doesn’t want him, isn’t physically or mentally able to care for him the way he deserves - isn’t it then a better choice not to let the child be born, to suffer?

I’m not advocating abortion for the sake of abortion. I’m appalled at the number of people, especially young people today, who seem to think that legalised abortions is nothing more than a licence to go out and have as much unprotected sex as they like, because they know that “if worst should come to worst” they can have an abortion, and that will “fix things”. This isn’t a rough generalisation, I know at least one girl personally who has gone through almost that exact thought process.

But surely, it’s not fair to a child to bring him into a world where he’s not wanted and will be neglected and abused, or starved through lack of money and resources. The world is full of starving people, is it so wrong to make an informed decision not to add to the suffering?

Just to take it back to the original post, abortion vs. Holocaust:
The Holocaust was brought about by one man who decided that Jews deserved to die, for no better reason than that they were Jews. That one man is responsible for millions of deaths, in cold blood. Auschwitz boasted - yes, boasted - its ability to “dispose of” 10,000 people in 24 hours, at its prime. In addition, the Jews were starved, overworked, beaten, shot at, had gruesome experiments performed on them in some cases, had their belongings and their families ripped from them, and were generally made to feel sub human.
Abortion, in many cases, is brought about by mothers who have made the decision that for whatever reason, they are not ready or in a position to have a child. Though the statistics are startling when stated baldly like that, when you bring it back to the person who decides, it’s a lot less horrifying than the things Adolph Hitler did. At least the aborted babies aren’t tortured, or brought into a world where life is more horrifying than death would be.

This is one point of view. Please consider it fairly.
 
All it shows is graphic images, there are no statments/interviews from people who have had abortions, considered abortions, medical professionals, councillers or anyone else that could shed more truth on the issue.

I just shows one graphic part at the exclusion of the rest.
The results speak for themselves. What possible justification could there be to mitigate the slaughter of an innocent child? What “more truth” are you seeking – a child is being murdered!
So is amputation. But in some cases it is necessary.
Are you actually comparing the murder of a child to the amputation of a limb? Do you really think that’s a valid comparison?

Sometimes it’s necessary to suffer for the sake of others, too. I think this is a more appropriate consideration, given that the vast majority of abortions are done for personal freedom, and even those that are done for so-called “medical reasons” are still being done without regard for the child’s right to live.
If you want to put it that way. But those images looked pretty intact to me.
Abortions are sometimes necessary for a lot of reasons, that certainly doesnt mean that every one is justified or necessary.
Please state a few examples of abortion being “necessary” that do not completely discount the fact that the child is a human being with a right to live.
So its perfectly fine to kill one person but not another.
What was it that was said about babies that die?
That’s not the issue I raised, and you know it. I pointed out (and linked to an example of it: St. Gianna) that a woman who’d lay down her life for her child to have a chance at living is committing the greatest act of love we know. I never said anything about “killing” someone else.

What I’m saying is that, if a mother’s (or father’s) heart is in the right place, the only concern they will have is the well-being of their child.
The doctor being wrong isnt a fact, its a possibility. What I am considering is what would be more merciful.
It’s not merciful to kill another human being – don’t you see that? Suffering is an opportunity for grace to enter our lives if we unite it with Christ’s suffering – by embracing it for the good of someone else. If we determine that we must avoid suffering at the expense of someone else, we are doing the opposite of what Christ did.

Furthermore, I didn’t say the doctor in your hypothetical was wrong – I introduced the possibility of his incorrect prognosis as a factor which should swing the decision away from choosing to kill the unborn child. Because we can’t be certain, we should err on the side of keeping the child alive.
Who are you to say the oppisite?
I am a human being who believes it is wrong to kill an innocent human child in order that I might survive.
What a redicilous comment to make. I have actually been in the situation where I did have to consider that choice, it is not an easy one to consider.
With all due respect, this argument (that it’s difficult, and I’ve already been through it, and who are you to judge) is remarkably similar to the line of thinking of those who can’t accept that their gay brother is sinning.

I’m very sorry to hear that you were in that situation, but I’m even more sorry if a child died as a result of your or your loved one’s choice.

I never said or implied that the choice is easy from an emotional standpoint, but things are either right or wrong, regardless of how difficult the decision is.

(continued)
 
(continued)
I didnt say that it was one sided, I said that it was one part of the whole issue/situation. But you are right, it is one sided.
That film does not show that there are consequences of others. Where exactly in that film was the thought process or the circumstances that lead up to that shown?
Where was the aftermath for the others involved in the abortion?
It only shows one part of a complex and extremly difficult situation.
If the one side is the truth, then so be it.

I’m sorry, but the “aftermath for the others involved” does not carry nearly as much weight as the aftermath of the victim - a defenseless, unbaptised infant who never got to see the light of day, never got to know love, never got to make a single choice in his or her brief life.

Furthermore, the aftermath for the mother is frequently emotional turmoil, and sometimes even physical problems – things that could’ve been avoided had she not killed her child. That killing her child may have saved her own life should not be seen as a comfort; it ought to be a source of anguish, and hopefully remorse.
I dont believe that you understand my point of view at all if you believe that it is a morally neutral choice or that I am unaware that the killing of another human being is involved.
I never said abortion is a morally neutral choice – in fact, I said it is NOT.
No it is NOT being truthful, it is only showing part of the truth and that is the graphic display of the end product of the procedure. The truth of it doesnt beging there and it doesnt end there.
On the contrary, the truth DOES begin and end there. As I said before, any choice we make must be considered (at least partly) based on the implications it has for others. Even if the choice makes one’s own life seemingly better, it cannot be truly better if it comes at the expense of an innocent victim. The “graphic display of the end product” presents, very clearly, the implications that abortion has for its victims.
I NEVER said that we take each situation at face value and to suggest that I did is being dishonest.
Showing people one part of an issue however, is being dishonest as is blinding yourself to the whole issue by focusing on one part of it.
OK, sure – you didn’t say it explicitly, but when you give examples like
A pregnant woman tries to carry the baby full term and/or give birth, she WILL die. Not necessary?
that is what you are doing and suggesting ought to be done.

Peace,
Dante
 
When a child is going to be born into poverty, into hunger, and want, when a child is going to be born into abuse, violence, exposure to alchohol and drugs, when a child is going to be born to a mother that doesn’t want him, isn’t physically or mentally able to care for him the way he deserves - isn’t it then a better choice not to let the child be born, to suffer?
This line of thinking makes the following erroneous assumptions:

a. That the child is, in fact, doomed as a result of his/her probable experiences.

b. That there is no good to come of a life of suffering.

c. That God cannot or will not work miracles.

There is no guarantee that a life of abuse or poverty or exposure to drugs is a life not worth living. I know people who were abused, or poor, or who used drugs, or all three – and I am thankful to have known them. Many of them turned out fine – perhaps better – in the end. I’m not saying everyone should endure what they endured, but I can’t imagine what my life would have been like if I hadn’t known them because their parents killed them.
I’m not advocating abortion for the sake of abortion. I’m appalled at the number of people, especially young people today, who seem to think that legalised abortions is nothing more than a licence to go out and have as much unprotected sex as they like, because they know that “if worst should come to worst” they can have an abortion, and that will “fix things”. This isn’t a rough generalisation, I know at least one girl personally who has gone through almost that exact thought process.
The problem is that abortion was legalized in the US on the pretext that women should be able to get one when it’s needed. The result is that they can get one when it’s convenient.
But surely, it’s not fair to a child to bring him into a world where he’s not wanted and will be neglected and abused, or starved through lack of money and resources. The world is full of starving people, is it so wrong to make an informed decision not to add to the suffering?
Yes, it is so wrong.

Suffering is, as I pointed out in the previous posts, an opportunity to bring grace into our lives. Furthermore, when you “mercifully” kill a child so that they won’t endure suffering, you are making the assumption that they would, indeed, have endured it had they lived. AND, what is more, you eliminate the possibility that any good could come of that person’s suffering, or that they could touch anyone else’s lives.

Just to take it back to the original post, abortion vs. Holocaust:
The Holocaust was brought about by one man who decided that Jews deserved to die, for no better reason than that they were Jews. That one man is responsible for millions of deaths, in cold blood. Auschwitz boasted - yes, boasted - its ability to “dispose of” 10,000 people in 24 hours, at its prime. In addition, the Jews were starved, overworked, beaten, shot at, had gruesome experiments performed on them in some cases, had their belongings and their families ripped from them, and were generally made to feel sub human.
Abortion, in many cases, is brought about by mothers who have made the decision that for whatever reason, they are not ready or in a position to have a child. Though the statistics are startling when stated baldly like that, when you bring it back to the person who decides, it’s a lot less horrifying than the things Adolph Hitler did. At least the aborted babies aren’t tortured, or brought into a world where life is more horrifying than death would be.
Abortion is, quite simply, the dismemberment and murder of a defenseless child. To choose this option because “I can’t afford a child” or “My career comes first” or “My family will disown me if they find out I’m pregnant” or “I’m not ready to be a parent” – or even “I might die if I have a baby” – is the height of selfishness. The decision to have sex is the decision to be open to life coming of it. When we have sex and then seek to avoid the consequences by killing a human being, we are trying to have our cake and eat it, too.
This is one point of view. Please consider it fairly.
I have attempted to do so, but remember that the truth is not subject to opinion – it is truth, whether we believe it or not.

Peace,
Dante
 
I don’t know if this will help. But something that some people (not all) kinda miss is that Pro-Life people see no difference between abortion and walking into a third-world orphanage and killing the kids to protect them from a bad life.

I know this doesn’t address all of the mercy/compassion arguments that are used to support “keep abortion legal”. But the time to worry about the child’s possible “bad life/living conditions” was before conception - once there’s a pregnancy the child’s life is a done deal. If abortion is used, the child is killed “for it’s own protection”. 😦
 
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