Abortion. would you rather she...

[Tantum_ergo]

Oh, so now we are not simply ‘disagreeing’ are we?

No, now Zatzat has to present himself as being ‘better’, more complete, more intelligent etc. through his ‘shades of gray’ whereas we who argue to his ‘black and white’ definition are thereby blinded by ‘dogma’, unable to ‘think’ as clearly, etc.

What happened to your interest in hearing from people with other points of view? What happened to respect and dialogue?

All you do is parrot the same old 'you’re just too simple, I see ‘shades of gray’. Well what ARE the shades of gray? IF you have arguments, USE THEM! Because right now, all you’re doing is saying ‘uh-uh’ to OUR discussions. Where are your arguments? Let’s hear them.

 

[kimmielittle]

In Canada, abortions are performed in hospitals. I don’t know what the cost is, but I suspect it’s a lot more than $350.** Of course, Canada has universal health care, so there’s no out of pocket expense.**

It still comes out of your pocket.

Would you rather be killed in a back alley…
Or in a hospital?

 

[vz71]

I’m not buying your black and white arguement. I’m able to see many shades of grey, but then again, I’m not blinded by emotion or dogma.

You see shades of grey where there are none.

And apparently are blinded by your own pride.

 

[vz71]

Would you rather be killed in a back alley…
Or in a hospital?

The questions of the OP have long since been abandoned.
Apparently the majority in this thread saw through to the truth of what was being said rather then the deception of the OP.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You see shades of grey where there are none.

And apparently are blinded by your own pride.

Isn’t it INTERESTING that seeing ‘gray’ means that one is seeing ‘clearly’ but that seeing black or white means that one is ‘blinded by dogma and/or emotion?’

As though seeing black or white cannot possibly be seeing clearly. As though seeing ‘gray’ is NOT being blinded by something --a big smutchy glop of prideful relativism usually. . .

 

[estesbob]

I’m not buying your black and white arguement. I’m able to see many shades of grey, but then again, I’m not blinded by emotion or dogma.

You are blinded by emotion & moral relatavism. Your worldview is simplistic. You try and take complex moral issues and distill them down to silly " either ,or" questions.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

That is indeed true. Abortion may not be murder, but it’s defintely homicide.

Of course, being a legal term, murder can be determined by a govt. In fact, there was a particular European govt that existed about 60, 70 years ago that well, said to kill a Jew wasn’t murder…

Our own (U.S.) government used to believe that to kill an African American wasn’t murder, merely “destroying property”. Only the most vile racist would believe that now. God willing the day will come when the unborn will be seen as full fledged humans w/ rights again and killing them will again be murder.

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[kimmielittle]

It’s certainly not murder. Murder is a legal term, used in a court of law. Women who obtain abortions aren’t charged with murder, because they haven’t murdered anyone.

You’re using activist language and I get that, but it’s far from the reality.

imprint.uwaterloo.ca/2009/oct/2/science-and-technology/science-behind-abortion-debate/

Murder is the exact word to use…it’s done with forethought and malice against an innocent human life. A life with no legal recourse no benefit of protection under law ] …no way of escape. Judged unworthy to live, solely on the word / criteria set and of **one **other human life. An act of killing done with extreme prejudice. The victim is targeted and with malice, sought out with mindful purpose - to be eliminated.

 

[Zatzat]

Seeing shades of grey simply means that I recognize that in the real world, things don’t all fit neatly into little ideological boxes.

It recognizes that 13 year olds who’ve been raped by their father or uncle, have a right to determine what happens to their bodies…including obtaining an abortion to end a pregnanc pregnancy.

A woman has the right to determine if her body is going to carry a baby or not.

It recognizes that without access to safe abortions in health care facilities, women, especially the marginalized, will be forced into the hands of charlatons in the back alley’s of the nation.

 

[JReducation]

What people choose to call abortion is irrelevant. It is murder. There is a revealed commandment that says, “Thou shall not kill.” It refers to murder. In addition, there are natural laws that say that human beings have rights. The most fundamental right of every human being is the right to be born. Therefore, you are violating a person’s right. The argument of whether this is a human being or not is a nonsensical argument. If you examine the material in the womb, it is human material, not canine or feline. If you want to go with medical science, then you’re out of luck. The medical community does not agree on this point. However, every biologist and medical student agrees that it’s human matter in the womb and that this matter is alive. It boils down to taking a human life, whether it looks like you or has a few weeks to go.

Don’t even go to “not everyone is Catholic, especially the Catholics on this forum. Revelation is not just for Catholics and Catholics have no right or authority to excuse others from embracing revealed truth. There is a big difference between someone who does not embrace revealed truth because they have never heard it or because they have trouble understanding something about what they have heard. It’s quite another thing to abdicate our moral duty to push revealed truth, because others do not belong to our faith or our culture. Christ founded the Church in Jerusalem, among Jews. They did not limit Truth to the Jews. Otherwise, most people on this forum would not be Christian, since most people here are descendants of Gentiles. In other words, non Catholics do not get an easy pass on this one and Catholics should be the last to give them one, just like Gentiles did not get a pass on the Messiahship of Christ.

To close, the argument that is legal is a compelling as the argument for choice. What is legal is not allowed when the law has no moral authority. A law loses moral authority when it comes into conflict with revelation. If we want to use the argument for choice, let’s try it. I choose to go into the Congress and shoot at a bunch of people. I choose to steal from my parents. I choose not to go to school and hang out in the park while my parents are at work. We can always make a case as to why stop choices at abortion, why not extend the right to choice to other areas of life. The answer is simple, because these would be antisocial or immoral choices. Well so is this one, regardless of who disagrees. This is not activism. It’s called evangelization.

If there are any single men out there who wish to consecrate their lives to preach and teach the Gospel of Life, the Franciscan Brothers of Life are looking for a few good men.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Cristiano]

Seeing shades of grey simply means that I recognize that in the real world, things don’t all fit neatly into little ideological boxes.

Is this a statement that there is no absolute truth?

…It recognizes that 13 year olds who’ve been raped by their father or uncle, have a right to determine what happens to their bodies…including obtaining an abortion to end a pregnancy…

Is this a statement that says that we acquire specific right only under specific circumstances?

…A woman has the right to determine if her body is going to carry a baby or not…

Is this statement true? It contradicts the two previous ones because it is absolute and it does not require specific conditions.

…It recognizes that without access to safe abortions in health care facilities, women, especially the marginalized, will be forced into the hands of charlatons in the back alley’s of the nation.

1. 
   This is what a popular atheist web site would call a hasty generalization and argumentum ad misericordiam.
   
   You keep posting polls based on two fundamental logical fallacies. The first is the fallacy of bifurcation and the second is the fallacy of argumentum ad misericordiam.
   Then you add to your posts with audiatur et altera pars that it is not a fallacy by itself but it puts a bias on the bifurcation of the initial post.

 

[kimmielittle]

Seeing shades of grey simply means that I recognize that in the real world, things don’t all fit neatly into little ideological boxes.

It recognizes that 13 year olds who’ve been raped by their father or uncle, have a right to determine what happens to their bodies…including obtaining an abortion to end a pregnanc pregnancy.

And murder abortion ] is a solution to this?

A woman has the right to determine if her body is going to carry a baby or not.

Yes, it’s called …not sleeping around. This has always been the lamest excuse given. This argument suggests women are mindless wonders incapable of knowing or taking their own responsibility for their actions.

It recognizes that without access to safe abortions in health care facilities, women, especially the marginalized, will be forced into the hands of charlatons in the back alley’s of the nation.

It recognizes the mindset…that people think abortion is the solution to responsibility. A very poor outlook for any society to take…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Seeing shades of grey simply means that I recognize that in the real world, things don’t all fit neatly into little ideological boxes.

It recognizes that 13 year olds who’ve been raped by their father or uncle, have a right to determine what happens to their bodies…including obtaining an abortion to end a pregnanc pregnancy.

A woman has the right to determine if her body is going to carry a baby or not.

It recognizes that without access to safe abortions in health care facilities, women, especially the marginalized, will be forced into the hands of charlatons in the back alley’s of the nation.

Ideological ‘boxes’? Who is using the ‘activist’ type of language now?

So, the right to determine ‘what happens to a body’ is important?

what of the right for a body–the innocent infant–to live?

**Oh and PUH-LEEZE. "Forced into the back alleys’. Talk about activist language. The ‘back alleys’ of the media were in large part ‘manufactured’ to try to ‘sell’ abortion as a ‘good.’ **

**And please do tell the aborted infants that they should be ever so grateful their mothers chose to have them aborted in nice ‘safe’ facilities. **

 

[Zatzat]

And murder abortion ] is a solution to this?

Yes, it’s called …not sleeping around. This has always been the lamest excuse given. This argument suggests women are mindless wonders incapable of knowing or taking their own responsibility for their actions.

It recognizes the mindset…that people think abortion is the solution to responsibility. A very poor outlook for any society to take…

Yes, abortion is a sollution with regards to a raped child or woman ending a pregnancy.

If a woman wants an abortion, it’s her body…it’s her right. The embryo isn’t a baby, no matter how much you call it a baby…it’s not.

 

[st_lucy]

Yes, abortion is a sollution with regards to a raped child or woman ending a pregnancy.

If a woman wants an abortion, it’s her body…it’s her right. The embryo isn’t a baby, no matter how much you call it a baby…it’s not.

Well, hmm I am glad my mother did not find it necessary to have my body ripped apart because my father was an (well you know what!)

So in your mind children have not rights. Right?

 

[st_lucy]

Yes, abortion is a sollution with regards to a raped child or woman ending a pregnancy.

If a woman wants an abortion, it’s her body…it’s her right. The embryo isn’t a baby, no matter how much you call it a baby…it’s not.

No the embryo may not be a baby per say, because a baby is just a stage in the life of human. So an embryo is a human. Right?

 

[mangy_dog]

A hypothetical scenario;

You have a female acquaintance and you just found out that she had an abortion. This female lives in a state where abortion is illegal. However, the woman lives beside a state that has legalized abortion.

Upon hearing the news, would you rather hear that;

A). The woman sought an illegal back alley abortion.

B). The woman sought a legal abortion in a modern health care facility.

Discuss.

The lesser of two evils is still an evil choice.

It is the lowest limit of our freedom in that we can still choose to do what is right. Once we choose the “lesser of two evils”…we have chosen wrong and have consequently destroyed our freedom. We have become slaves to our wrong, evil choices.

 

[estesbob]

Yes, abortion is a sollution with regards to a raped child or woman ending a pregnancy.

So you beleive that Children should be killed for the sins of their Father’s? If a rapist does not impregnate his victim should the victim be allowed to kill one of his children?

If a woman wants an abortion, it’s her body…it’s her right. The embryo isn’t a baby, no matter how much you call it a baby…it’s not.

You are entitled to your own opinions but not entitled to your own biology. Unborn children are in no way shape or form part of a womans body.

I see that having exhausted the “murder” semantics game you now want to start the “baby” semantics game.No doubt the “personhood” semantics game is coming next.

 

[kimmielittle]

Yes, abortion is a sollution with regards to a raped child or woman ending a pregnancy.

It is not a solution to the problem…you might sell me on castration or frontal lobotomy of the perpetrator…though

If a woman wants an abortion, it’s her body…it’s her right.

Yes, a legal right…Legal right doesn’t equate to moral right

The embryo isn’t a baby, no matter how much you call it a baby…it’s not.

The embryo IS human life…no matter what you wish to call it.

 

[lizaanne]

I’m not buying your black and white arguement. I’m able to see many shades of grey, but then again, I’m not blinded by emotion or dogma.

This makes life very easy for you doesn’t it. When the world is all gray and muddy you can pretty much plot your own course, live life the way you want, and not have to worry about doing anything wrong because, hey, it’s all gray right!!??

Well sorry to break it to you - that is no way to go through life. There are absolutes. There can only be ONE Truth, not many truths.

~Liza