Abortion

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I wonder if most of the people on this forum realize,that the church supported abortion for a very long time. They only “believed” that the human soul kicked in at a certain stage. Abortion, has not been “legal” for 36 years. It has been legal throughout the majority of recorded human history.

As to the OP, you will not change abortion laws by claiming it as murder, or evil or anything else. It simply won’t happen.(I’m not saying you did, just making a point)

By creating a divide between humans and a problem they have by use of heated words, will not actually achieve the result you want.

I suspect most people who use the kind of statments made on this thread, have less interest in actually stopping abortion and more interesting in hating those who do it.Why? because they feel powerless to stop it. The only comfort? Murderers go to hell. That doesn’t help the situation though does it?

If you want to STOP something, you must understand why it happens. And by that…I mean…you don’t invoke “evil” is the reason kinds of statments. Please…give me a cure for evil, I will bottle it…and make a million.

To try and stop abortion, you have to understand where the different parties are coming from and their world view.

This is where you begin. I won’t go any further, I will await your response 🙂
Even if it were true that the Church “always supported abortion” (which is untrue propaganda) you think this matters? If a person who was Catholic believed that abortion was not the killing of a soul until quickening in medevial Europe, how exactly is that relevant, considering we have 3D sonograms and extensive medical knowledge about fetal development in the 21st century?

Abortion supporters do nothing but avoid and obfuscate the real issues. The real issues are a scalpel and a tiny body being torn into bits, Dameedna.

You can whine about how “everybody just doesn’t understand”, and have a little pity party for people who have abortions, but your pity party doesn’t make murder anything less than murder.
 
I wasn’t talking about what the church teaches now.

I’m talking about what they supported in the past. 🙂
again prove it! You keep making these wild claims. Remember one persons ideas does not make it true.

Please stop making these wild claims until you can back them up.

babystepsdvd.com/
 
Thanks for coming back.
What we have learned about the human body since then( and the entire universe) has grown dramatically in the last couple of decades.

…]

As the human world changes, so will your religion. The world will however…change a lot faster. Religion will follow. It alway’s does.
But, amazingly, not the Catholic Church. Churches do grow organically through the years… after all, an acorn is much different than an oak… but the Catholic Church has not changed its teachings on core moral and doctrinal issues for 2,000 years.
A new ‘theology of the body" will be created by a pope, who is right now…just a little boy. We wont’ know him…but he will create a new way in accordance with new understandings 🙂
Well, if we’re still around 40 years from now, I am eager to see this. People were making the same speculations 40 years ago, and as you can see it hasn’t come to pass.
Sex IS unitive which is actually the “primary” mechanism for a males desire for sex. He doesn’t want to have sex to make babies all the time. No…men do not desire to have sex to spread their seed. Neither do females. This view is based on ignorance of human biology.
What does this have to do with Theology of the Body?
Their natural desire for sex, has very little to do with baby making at all. Baby making, is an end result. Nature…does not support this belief at all. It completely and utterly negates it.IE…humans do not “primarly” have sex to make babies. They have sex, so that they bond together AS A COMMUNITY (ie with other sexual partners in their community) and will remain together(individuall) with the child MAY create. Your theology…as gotten it…completely backwards.
:rotfl: That is just your opinion. Frankly, having actually read Theology of the Body and related works, I find that the Church’s teachings were and are *completely *accurate. Look at Paul VI’s predictions regarding the negative fruits of contraception… each and everyone has come true.
That’s not for me to decide.
You seem to be portraying yourself as quite the expert on the subject. Tell me, what are your qualifications?
I would suggest, when debate something…go look for the other sides argument first.
I would give you the same advice.
You may be surprised(and horrified) at what you find 🙂
Is it that you *can’t *back up your accusations, or that you won’t? I’ve yet to see you produce any evidence to back up your claim that the Church used to endorse and support abortion. Please, I’m eagerly waiting to see this so-called evidence.

I’ve debated this subject many, many times on many different message boards, and each time I challenge my opponent to produce evidence that the Church used to endorse abortion, s/he cannot. And believe me, I *have *looked. All I can find are teachings that are taken entirely out of context, as mentioned in the link I provided.

So please do provide your proof. I’m very interested to see it.
 
Sex exists firstly for reproduction and secondly for other reasons in the same way that eating exists firstly for nutrition and secondly for other reasons. To point out that we have a digestive system to keep us nourished is not to be mean and deny people the experience of eating socially – it just helps us all keep in mind that when our stomachs are aching and we have trouble swallowing another egg roll it might mean we should stop eating and do something else for a while. A person with severe diabetes shouldn’t enter a relationship that depends on her eating a Farrell’s Zoo with every date, as this is unacceptable risky and easily avoided. In the same way, a person who would find it for whatever reason just devastating to procreate should not enter a relationship that would depend on her having sex. And a person with a paralyzing fear of pulling cords should never agree to be with someone who demands that she skydive with him. And so forth with every activity.
 
I am not aware of any major religion that condones elective abortion. I have read Hindu writings that condemn abortion as preventing the incarnation of souls who have a divine purpose in coming to be a part of the mother’s life.
 
absolutely right, perfectly logical. After all, if murder was illegal, there would still be people who would go out and shoot their boss or poison their wife, so why have such a law at all? Why not educated children about responsibility.

If speeding and reckless driving and DWI was made illegal, some people might still be tempted to do it, and could get hurt in the process, so why have any laws at all?
OK. puzzleannie, You are making way too much sense.👍
 
This “Theology of the body” that is held so highly was written during a time when humans did not understand what they do about the human body today.
Dame Edna: were you affecting a man or a woman when you wrote this? I am asking this so that I might respond with the proper deference due to whatever gender you were affecting.

The beginning of TOB was 1979! Not 500 years ago!
It was never a “christian” truth, just a theory written by one christian. That is all. And like so many before it, has been show to be incorrect.
catholic.com/library/abortion.asp
The point of sex, is not to pro-create. That is the end result. The point of sex within nature, is to create a bond between parents so they will remain together to raise a child. There are many more “points” to sex that we have understood today.
So, in your humble opinion, we (humans) are so different from all of the other animals that the “point of sex” is to create a bond, NOT to pro-create?
The Theology of the body is nothing other than a philosophy based on human ignorance and an attempt to use nature to support a failing religious belief.
catholic.com/library/abortion.asp
Your church however, will…when it chooses be able to change it because it’s never been declared as “official” doctrine.
If our Church has held this position from its earliest times - odds are, it won’t “change” its mind, like some altruistic, fickle politician with a finger raised in the air, testing which way the winds are blowing.

This entire post is simply an amazing sample of the muddiest of thinking that can possibly be imagined. PLUS, it is a dissemination of the vulgarist of misinformation and disinformation.

Sorry for the harshness, but, you are not talking about some vague philosophical concept, but, about the lives of innocent children. Children who have no voice with which to speak out yet. Children dissallowed from participation in the “choice”. New souls gifted from God, summarily sent to a garbage can in little, bleeding pieces without the slightest of afterthought.

I hope you were affecting the man when you wrote this. I guess I have come at you man-to-man. I apologize to the readers of CAF and to our illustrius moderator, whose judgements I have not had too much need to dissagree with.

jd
 
What we have learned about the human body since then( and the entire universe) has grown dramatically in the last couple of decades.
That depends upon your concept of “dramatically”, I suspect. Having read a number of your posts, I have noticed that you seem to have a predilection for embellishment. Oh, and for misinformation and disinformation.
As an example, most of the experiements done on the human brain, were done on the “male” brain because the female brains’ behaviour fluctuated due to hormones so greatly this caused a distrubance in the data. Since the male brain was more hormonally stable, it has been the primary gender for brain research, up until the mid to late 90’s.
While your statement that most of the research on the human brain may well have been done of male subjects is possibly correct, your cause-effect scenario seems quite deficient.
This means all “reasearch” into human behaviour that your pope understand about the study of the brain…has historically come from the male brain.
Another bone-head conclusion jumped to: in other words, you’re admitting that there’s such a cavernous difference between the male and female brains that science cannot reasonably determine any meaningful conclusions about the female brain, from the study of the male brain, or, vice-versa?

You must have been affecting the (Dame Edna) male side of you on this day. 😃
The study of the female brain, is very very new. It is hard to do…because our hormones shrink the brain every cycle, causing experimental data to fluctuate. Our brain also regrows every month. PMS is not something we just do. It’s something our brain does, when it realizes a baby is not made. It puts us back where we were before…ready to begin again.
Among other, perhaps more notable, consequences.🙂

The study of the female brain is not “very, very new”. Only the book you seem to be compelled to be an adherant of, by Louann Brizendine. Much of her assertions are at great odds throughout the scientific community - including its women!

Mark Liberman calls most of her assertions “Urban Legends”. But, of course, he’s just a man.
During the last stages of pregnancy the female brain shrinks to 80% and then “regrows” in a completely different way as a result of her biological drive to take care of her infant.
Here, folks, is a clear example of mis- and dis- information: the percentage quoted by Louann Brizendine is a “possible” shrinkage of 8%, not 20%.

itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004370.html
This is new information, not something that was made available during this particular theology. So yes…the studies done, during the Theology of the body, were done in ignorance. This theology wasn’t an attempt at cruelty it was based on the best knowlege at /the time. But to follow it today, is in fact rather cruel and ignorant
Interesting that in its first iterations, this book had a cover that was “oddly 1970-ish”. - Language Log, by Mark Liberman

I have one request of you: “Document or retract.”
As the human world changes, so will your religion. The world will however…change a lot faster. Religion will follow. It alway’s does.
Document or retract. PLEASE!
A new ‘theology of the body" will be created by a pope, who is right now…just a little boy. We wont’ know him…but he will create a new way in accordance with new understandings
I am on the side of those who don’t hold out much hope for your predictions coming true, especially since your “proofs” have absolutely no gravitas.
Sex IS unitive which is actually the “primary” mechanism for a males desire for sex.
Unbelievable! 🤷

The primary reason men want to have sex is PLEASURE! If God had not made it “pleasurable”, at least for us humans, men wouldn’t do it! Think about it. No one would - except some lunatic scientist who, despite perhaps not arriving at the intended conclusion, would have to ponder how our race has thus far survived.
He doesn’t want to have sex to make babies all the time.
Perhaps not, but, this is irrelevant
No…men do not desire to have sex to spread their seed. Neither do females. This view is based on ignorance of human biology.
“Desire” has nothing to do with this concept. That is your confusion.
Their natural desire for sex, has very little to do with baby making at all. Baby making, is an end result. Nature…does not support this belief at all. It completely and utterly negates it.IE…humans do not “primarly” have sex to make babies. They have sex, so that they bond together AS A COMMUNITY (ie with other sexual partners in their community) and will remain together(individuall) with the child MAY create. Your theology…as gotten it…completely backwards.
And, you continue to not shatter our hopes, aspirations, and illusions about you.
You may be surprised(and horrified) at what you find.
jd
 
Sometimes men have sex because they want babies and sometimes (I think much more commonly) women do so. Sometimes men have sex to bond and sometimes women do so. Sometimes men have sex to appease someone and sometimes (more I am fairly sure) women do so. Sometimes men have sex for money and sometimes (again, much more often) women do so. Sometimes men have sex to control, hurt or exert power over someone and sometimes (less often I am fairly sure) women do so. Indeed one notorious form of this last reason is STD-revenge. Sometimes men have sex in order to make a marriage official and sometimes women do so. Sometimes men and women have sex for exercise. Sometimes to entertain others. Sometimes for lack of other activities. The common thread is that they are using organs and hormones that exists to reproduce, and if they are a male and a female engaged in the procreative act, they are engaged in the formula for life. It’s not an accident if she gets pregnant. It’s an accident if she doesn’t. Engaging in that act while terrified of becoming pregnant is analogous to flipping switches on walls in terror that a light will turn on or off. It’s extremely irrational and self-destructive beavior.
 
My mistake I meant to say 3 weeks of a decision to stop abortion was clearly long enough to see if it works.

In the interest of clarity where are the facts that the entire male nations was frustrated?
From Leroy
Your references to 3 weeks of an absinance program does not come from my post.

To clarify, a decision in NZ to stop abortion was followed by 3 weeks of an entire male nations frustration. The women refused to have sex till the law changed.

It never had anything to do with an abstinance program, so I’m not sure where you above remark is coming from. Could you be fabricating my written words by chance?

Like I said, the only way into this debate is with honesty and clarity. These kinds of comments and manipulations of anothers words get you nowhere.

But …I suspect you care less about the “babies” than you do in arguing.
NO, I CARE VERY MUCH ABOUT THE BABIES!
 
To the person who said that teachers and coaches encourage kids to NOT trust or confide in their parents, I HIGHLY resent that statement. As a child of a teacher (my Mom has been teaching for 42 years now), and the nephew of a teacher, and the cousin of three teachers, and a student going into education myself, I have NEVER heard a teacher discourage a child from trusting or telling their parents anything. In all of my years of school (Catholic school), I NEVER heard that either.
Abortion is something that I would NOT chose, if I where a woman, nor do I want anyone in my family or circle of friends to choose it either. I feel that abortion is murder and a sin, however, not everyone in this world feels that way. Not everyone follows my religion, so when I vote, I don’t vote by my religious convictions, what right do I have to impose my religious views on anyone else? Besides, isn’t Church and State seperate?
And yes, if we make abortion illegal, people are going to find dangerous ways of doing it anyway. Anyone who thinks differently, just refuses to be wrong or even consider they are wrong.
 
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