Abortion

[grannymh]

Actually, you are completely INcorrect. I have not

said anywhere that a fetal human is not a human being. What I find taxingly stale is pro-life individuals continually having to prop up their arguments with 1) Hitler, and 2) slavery. What a snooze. Can’t you argue your points without having to resort to these old warhorses? Isn’t abortion enough of an affront to you to enable you to argue eloquently against it without stooping to this?

What makes this embryo elegant is its spiritual soul.

This soul is in the likeness of God Who, as pure spirit, is Creator of all. The beauty of the Alaska mountains are reflected in this soul. The trickle of a creek which heals thirst is reflected in this soul. Christ, with his thorn torn head, bleeding from the cross, is reflected in this soul.

In other words, God the Creator of all and the Savior of all has created this soul. And this soul reflects back God’s majesty, His providence, and His eternal love for us. We look at this tiny group of cells and see God’s presence.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is sacred.

 

[limerick]

 

[grannymh]

I’m not convinced it can be proven when the soul enters the body.
Limerick

The soul is intangible – in other words, it is beyond our ordinary sense perception. That is why a bit of logic and understanding of who we are as human beings is needed. Post 150 is an attempt to understand how very special human beings are.

Our own observation tells us that there is something intangible existing within us. . We know that death is the separation of that intangible spiritual soul from our body. Thus, as long as we have life, our spiritual soul is in union with our body.

At conception there is life. It does matter how many cells there are, there is still human life. From our knowledge of death, we can see that life means the union of soul and body . Ergo, the soul exists at the same moment of human conceptive life.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is sacred.

 

[grannymh]

Well, this is a mighty unilateral and fluffy view of life. Does the soul that God creates in the extortionist reflect back to Him clouds and purple mountain majesties? How about the soul of the man who shoots the abortionist to death? What does his soul reflect back to God? For that matter, what does the soul of a woman who has had an abortion reflect?

Limerick

Pardon me. My post was referring only to the soul of the embryo.

My first sentence was: What makes this embryo elegant is its spiritual soul.

Wouldn’t you say that the extortionist, the abortionist and you and I are way down the road of life? We did leave the womb.

Reflecting back to God the condition of our souls is far different than the embryo’s soul reflecting God because its soul is spiritual. Please think a moment about the big difference here.

The extortionist, the abortionist and you and I have changed the way our souls look. But the embryo, which is what I was referring to, has a pure soul which does reflect the spiritual nature of its Creator. And there are times when poetry, that fluffy stuff, can express majesty, providence, and love.

What is truly amazing is that with sorrow for sin, God’s merciful forgiveness can bring our souls back to that first purity. This does not necessarily mean a go-home-free card. We do have the responsibility to make amends for our sins. It is the guilt which is removed.

Personally, there are times when the “purple mountain majesties” lift my spirit. For me, the beauty of Alaska points to the existence of God.

 

[Gabriella_San_S]

***“One could start with what humans wrote in the Constitution,” ***grannymh suggests when asked, “what are the rights of a human?”

Is this truly the place that you, as a Catholic, would start? Doesn’t Church doctrine and dogma go back further than the Constitution?

And Gabriella San S brings up a very disturbing point in that when the body dies the soul “ascends to His maker for judgment, purification and then begins his eternal life-unless he rejects God, then he “flees with great speed” (according to St.John Bosco) to escape the presence (justice) of God-to eternal damnation.” * Now, what I was taught, by nuns and brothers, mind you, was that upon death we went straight to Purgatory if that was called for, or Hell, if that was called for.* How cruel, then, to hear we get to see the face of God before we descend. ** Of course, my religious education began fifty years ago. Who says the Church isn’t evolving?

Limerick

That is the greatest torment in Hell. And it was the greatest agony for Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane, that despite His Sacrifice for poor sinners, many souls would still be lost.
This is why we have been given a* last hope* in these times through devotion to the Divine Mercy. Our Lord told St.Faustina, “the greatest sinners have the most right to My Mercy…” That inscription is carved in the confessional door at the National Shrine of Divine Mercy in Stockbridge, Massachusetts.
Mercy Sunday is the first Sunday after Easter.
"At three o’clock, implore My mercy, especially for sinners; and if only for a brief moment, immerse yourself in My Passion, particularly in My abandonment at the moment of agony:
This is the hour of great mercy for the whole world. I will allow you to enter into My mortal sorrow. In this hour, I will refuse nothing to the soul that makes a request of me in virtue of My Passion." (Our Lord’s promise to St. Faustina-diary, 1320)

 

[limerick]

The soul is intangible – in other words, it is beyond our ordinary sense perception. That is why a bit of logic and understanding of who we are as human beings is needed. Post 150 is an attempt to understand how very special human beings are.

Our own observation tells us that there is something intangible existing within us. . We know that death is the separation of that intangible spiritual soul from our body. Thus, as long as we have life, our spiritual soul is in union with our body.

At conception there is life. It does matter how many cells there are, there is still human life. From our knowledge of death, we can see that life means the union of soul and body . Ergo, the soul exists at the same moment of human conceptive life.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is sacred.

Our knowledge of death? We don’t know any more about death than we do about ensoulment! We have been told things, and I have been told that I’d better believe them or else. The whole set-up is unsatisfying for a person who needs more than “The bible tells me so” or “it’s all there in the Catechism.”

Limerick

 

[grannymh]

Our knowledge of death? We don’t know any more about death than we do about ensoulment! We have been told things, and I have been told that I’d better believe them or else. The whole set-up is unsatisfying for a person who needs more than “The bible tells me so” or “it’s all there in the Catechism.”

Limerick

Remember, you were respectfully on my case for using the Constitution instead of the older doctrines of the Church, etc. It’s a tough world where I live and I will use whatever I can to find truth.

Sure, I’ve been told things only I differentiate what is essential to believe and what is not. I also use ordinary things and my own experiences to deepen my understanding of truth.

Right, I’ve been told about death and eternal life and I could believe it. But, as a kid, I had to sneak into a funeral home to find out about the death of a young boy, my peer, who had been swept off the fishing pier and drowned. It was before visiting time so I was alone with him. Funny thing, I had not known him in life; yet, here we were friends. I wondered why he was on the pier when the experienced fishermen had left due to the angry lake. He didn’t answer and I knew what death meant.

As an adult, sure I knew what eternal life was. But I never really knew what it meant until the last time I looked at my mother in her coffin. Something within her told me she was not leaving me. The bond would not be broken because she would continue to exist somewhere near. It would not be in her body. It would be her, her very soul, that would continue on. I knew we were still mother and daughter.

From what you described in previous posts, you know death and soul, both learned from your gut.

 

[WillieWonka]

[362](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/362.htm’) The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore *willed *by God.
[363](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/363.htm’) In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human *life *or the entire human person.230 But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.
[364](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/364.htm’) The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232
Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. 233

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

[366](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/366.htm’) The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235
[367](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/367.htm’) Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people “wholly”, with “spirit and soul and body” kept sound and blameless at the Lord’s coming.236 The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.237 “Spirit” signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.238

None of that says when the soul and body form a composite. If you think it does, can you highlight the exact lines? Exactly when does the Church say the composite is formed?

 

[elts1956]

**This is a thread about abortion. If the soul is not “infused” into the human form at conception and can only be determined by quickening, at roughly four months’ gestation, then abortions that occur before quickening, or before 4 months’ conception, are not “killing babies”, as you all like to say. They are, instead, removing tissue without a soul.

Limerick**

The Church states ensoulment happens at the instant of conception. St. Augustine’s three or four month period of waiting until quickening has been disproven. Yeah, I know, he was a doctor of the Church, but NOT a scientist.

 

[grannymh]

The Church states ensoulment happens at the instant of conception. St. Augustine’s three or four month period of waiting until quickening has been disproven. Yeah, I know, he was a doctor of the Church, but NOT a scientist.

And quickening was an opinion. Big difference.

 

[estesbob]

The Church states ensoulment happens at the instant of conception. St. Augustine’s three or four month period of waiting until quickening has been disproven. Yeah, I know, he was a doctor of the Church, but NOT a scientist.

The disussion of when the enoulment took place had NOTHING to do with whether or not abortion was acceptable. It was ALWAYS a mortal sin to procure an abortion. The question of ensoulemnt was related to the pennance required when one confessed the sin of abortion.

 

[estesbob]

None of that says when the soul and body form a composite. If you think it does, can you highlight the exact lines? Exactly when does the Church say the composite is formed?

Seems preety clear to me-Ensoulment takes place at conception, it is from God, not the parents and our Soul will be re-united with our bodies at the ressurection of the dead. What else matters?

Are you ngetting ready to challenge us with"what about indentical twins"?

 

[Al_Masetti]

Haven’t read all the posts, but here is an excellent thread and the first post should be internetted to everyone.

THAT action, getting everyone to read that first post, would stop abortion:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=352064

 

[fix]

Good. New information.
When do body and soul form the composite?
Is the sould hanging around waiting for the body?
What happens when the body is gone? No longer a man? If not a man, then what?

This is from DECLARATION ON PROCURED ABORTION :

To this perpetual evidence - perfectly independent of the discussions on the moment of animation[19] - modern genetic science brings valuable confirmation. It has demonstrated that, from the first instant, there is established the program of what this living being will be: a man, this individual man with his characteristic aspects already well determined. Right from fertilization is begun the adventure of a human life, and each of its capacities requires time- a rather lengthy time- to find its place and to be in a position to act. The least that can be said is that present science, in its most evolved state, does not give any substantial support to those who defend abortion. Moreover, it is not up to biological sciences to make a definitive judgment on questions which are properly philosophical and moral such as the moment when a human person is constituted or the legitimacy of abortion. From a moral point of view this is certain: even if a doubt existed concerning whether the fruit of conception is already a human person, it is objectively a grave sin to dare to risk murder…

This declaration expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused. There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement. For some it dates from the first instant; for others it could not at least precede nidation. It is not within the competence of science to decide between these views, because the existence of an immortal soul is not a question in its field. It is a philosophical problem from which our moral affirmation remains independent for two reasons: (1) supposing a belated animation, there is still nothing less than a human life, preparing for and calling for a soul in which the nature received from parents is completed, (2) on the other hand, it suffices that this presence of the soul be probable (and one can never prove the contrary) in order that the taking of life involve accepting the risk of killing a man, not only waiting for, but already in possession of his soul.

So, the soul enters at conception. Any other time proposed is arbitrary.

 

[fix]

Guess I can’t. I don’t understand this post. Can you elaborate.

The constant debate regarding whether an unborn baby is really a human person seems disingenuous. Everyone knows it is a baby.

 

[traillius]

My oh my, look what I started…
A human embryo should not be aborted.
A human zygote should not be aborted.
A human fetus should not be aborted.
A human neonate which survived abortion should be provided all lifesaving medical measures.
Again as in another forum, a letter to all those embryos, zygotes, fetuses, and neonates who were deprived of life on purpose by a human adult or adolescent including any such being associated with anyone here:

To the approximately 1 billion little humans that have been slaughtered by abortion:
On the behalf of all people of earth who live now, or have ever lived, We would like to extend an apology to all of you.We wish you could have been born and survived to enjoy all the blessings of life that we share on earth. We are sorry that, for whatever reason, you were wiped from this life before you had any chance to live. We hope and trust that you are now with God enjoying the love and life that you were denied on earth. We look forward to seeing you one day, and telling you these things in person. Maybe We can see then what you would have been had you been allowed to live. Until then, We wish you God’s blessings and peace. We will pray for you, please pray for us. Once again we are sorry your lives were taken.

Love,
the people of earth

 

[Gabriella_San_S]

To the approximately 1 billion little humans that have been slaughtered by abortion:
On the behalf of all people of earth who live now, or have ever lived, We would like to extend an apology to all of you.We wish you could have been born and survived to enjoy all the blessings of life that we share on earth. We are sorry that, for whatever reason, you were wiped from this life before you had any chance to live. We hope and trust that you are now with God enjoying the love and life that you were denied on earth. We look forward to seeing you one day, and telling you these things in person. Maybe We can see then what you would have been had you been allowed to live. Until then, We wish you God’s blessings and peace. We will pray for you, please pray for us. Once again we are sorry your lives were taken.

Love,
the people of earth

…And please pray for your dear parents, in particular your mothers, who may not have realized the profound pain and grief that losing you would cause them for the rest of their lives. Help them to know that our merciful Savior forgives them, and please help them to forgive themselves. Amen.

 

[AnimalGal]

Well, that’s a good work for the animal kingdom, now…what is, in your opinion, the best way to address the problem of unplanned human pregnancies? Unfortunately, so many people deliberately choose to kill human babies. Any thoughts?

IMO - Education is the only way to reduce the number of abortions in this country. Roe vs Wade will never be overturned and women, (including those who are catholic) will never give up artificial birth control.

Start early in the schools with young people. Give them the information they need so that they can make informed rational choices. Not having sex is an informed rational choice. Not getting pregnant is an informed rational choice. Not having an abortion is an informed rational choice.

 

[elts1956]

Our knowledge of death? We don’t know any more about death than we do about ensoulment! We have been told things, and I have been told that I’d better believe them or else. The whole set-up is unsatisfying for a person who needs more than “The bible tells me so” or “it’s all there in the Catechism.”

Limerick

We have a “life force” within us. When our body shuts down to the extent organs no longer work to support “life”, the spiritual part of us, call it soul, or life force, leaves. The life force is the spiritual part of our existence. Without it, the body decays. New age folks claim there is an aura of light which surrounds each of us, the strength and color of which varies depending on our state of being. Animals and plants also have this “aura”. That has been scientifically proven. Don’t know about the human aspect of this claim as to whether it has been “seen” by scientific machines, or not.

All I can glean from observation, is this life force can sometimes become weaker with individuals until it fades out in death. Or it could be gone in a heartbeat.

Have you ever seen a person die? From one nanosecond to the next, there is life, then nothingness. No life force.

What you need Lim., is Faith. Ask for it.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

I agree, my friend. A lot of problems can be traced back to abortion. I really feel bad for the living siblings of aborted children. They must be wondering why their baby brother/sister wasn’t “good enough” for mommy and daddy.

I happen to be one of those. I have an older half brother/sister that was never allowed to live.

And yes…I do judge my mother for killing my dear sibling. Although, she has a whole host of other problems that has driven us apart anyway.