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estesbob
Guest
99% of Catholic have probably not given ensoulment a second thought. I am still at a loss as to what this has to do abortion?
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WillieWonka
Guest
Well, many people in abortion discussions make the claim the Church teaches the body and soul form a composite at conception. I suspect we can scour this thread and find quite a few such assertions. They hardly see that as a mundane philosophical curiosity. It appears hey see as a bulwark of their belief system.
I hope knowing the truth of what the Church actually teaches will indeed have an impact on people in their discussions of abortion. I would hope they would accurately relate Church teachings.
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WillieWonka
Guest
I’d suggest 99% of Catholics opposed to abortion think the Church teaches body and soul form a composite at conception. Maybe they haven’t thought about it. I don’t know. But they often say it is true. Now they have somehting to think about.
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allhers
Guest
I’m not seeing the “wiggle room”.
You might want to take a gander at this:
While the Church has consistently condemned all abortion, the Church for a period made a distinction between what it believed to be the unanimated and animated fetus. This does not mean that abortion of the presumed unanimated fetus was acceptable; it just recognized that a woman who killed the child she felt moving in her womb was acting in an even more wicked manner than someone who had not yet been taught about the sacred gift she carried by the movement of life inside her. With the invention of the microscope, it was realized that the fluids contained formed elements which investigators named “cells.”
Code:
The human ovum was finally identified in 1827,[7] and the interaction between sperm and egg that created the fertilized egg wasn’t fully explained by science until 1875.[8] However, given the information available, the Church by then had already recognized the needless canonical distinction between an unanimated and animated fetus. Knowledge about the earliest stage of man’s existence was already entering the mainstream of society.
Finally, one may wonder why the Church had to rely on biological developments to learn about man’s ensoulment, when she always taught that Jesus Christ the God-man was both fully God and fully man from the moment of His Incarnation in the womb of the Blessed Mother. The simple answer was that Christ revealed the truth about His Incarnation and miraculous conception to the Church, yet he left us to utilize our God-given faculty of intelligence to understand human conception. Revelation is proper to God; scientific advancement is proper to man. Through our assimilation of the two, we raise our intellect to the noble heights for which it was given.cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=1
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estesbob
Guest
Think about what? Again you are waving the word "probable:’ around like the swrod of Excalibur as if you have disovered some contradition in Catholic teaching that will bring the Church down.
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fix
Guest
The Church has taught, teaches, and will always teach direct abortion is always wrong.
The exact second ensoulment occurs does not change anything regarding that moral teaching.
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allhers
Guest
Oh brother, I meant to copy and paste the first three paragraphs of that article, not the
last three. (sorry about that, I was on the phone at the time.) Just checked back and realized what I did while I was gabbing away on the phone.
Anyway, here we go.
ISSUE: Has the Catholic Church always taught that abortion is a grave sin? If so, how do you
respond to the charge that the Church only declared abortion to be murder in 1869 under
Pope Pius IX?
RESPONSE: The Catholic Church has always taught that abortion is a grave sin and has always
prohibited Catholics from cooperating in or procuring an abortion. This has been the clear
and constant doctrine of the Catholic Church, as even the ancient Didache, a first-century
document that conveys the teaching of the early Church, affirms: “You shall not procure
abortion, nor destroy a new-born child”[1] (cf. Acts. 2:42,
Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 2270-75). What became clearer over time, because of
advances in biology, was the issue of ensoulment, i.e., when the soul is infused into the
unborn.[2] In addition, the action of Pope Pius IX in 1869 was one of changeable discipline,
not a change in doctrine. In this case, the Pope merely removed the distinction between the
“unensouled” and “ensouled” fetus, making the canonical punishment the same for abortion at
every stage because the soul is infused at conception (Catechism, no. 366).[3] While the
Church does not change her doctrine, she can modify the penalties for violating that
doctrine as she deems appropriate.
not always been completely understood, the fact that it is a grave offense against God has
always been taught.
[2] Arguing against ensoulment at “40 days,” which some, including Aristotle, had argued,
Dr. Paul Zacchia, Physician-General of the Vatican, posited in 1621 that ensoulment takes
place at conception and that the unborn child’s physical development is thereafter a
continuum. More than two centuries later, scientific evidence affirmed his hypothesis with
the discovery of the fertilized ovum and later an explanation of the fertilization process.
See Brian Clowes, The Facts of Life, Front Royal, VA: Human Life International, 1997,
page 207, 202-211 in general.
again the source:
cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=1
and another great source:
www.hli.org (which in [2] is referenced, Human Life International, in Front Royal, VA.)
After what I did, I’m reminded of another quote of Fr. Corapi’s that I love:
“God has placed obvious limitations on our intelligence…but none whatsoever on our
stupidity.”
last three. (sorry about that, I was on the phone at the time.) Just checked back and realized what I did while I was gabbing away on the phone.
Anyway, here we go.
ISSUE: Has the Catholic Church always taught that abortion is a grave sin? If so, how do you
respond to the charge that the Church only declared abortion to be murder in 1869 under
Pope Pius IX?
RESPONSE: The Catholic Church has always taught that abortion is a grave sin and has always
prohibited Catholics from cooperating in or procuring an abortion. This has been the clear
and constant doctrine of the Catholic Church, as even the ancient Didache, a first-century
document that conveys the teaching of the early Church, affirms: “You shall not procure
abortion, nor destroy a new-born child”[1] (cf. Acts. 2:42,
Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 2270-75). What became clearer over time, because of
advances in biology, was the issue of ensoulment, i.e., when the soul is infused into the
unborn.[2] In addition, the action of Pope Pius IX in 1869 was one of changeable discipline,
not a change in doctrine. In this case, the Pope merely removed the distinction between the
“unensouled” and “ensouled” fetus, making the canonical punishment the same for abortion at
every stage because the soul is infused at conception (Catechism, no. 366).[3] While the
Church does not change her doctrine, she can modify the penalties for violating that
doctrine as she deems appropriate.
Code:
Thus, while a complete description of all the ways in which abortion offends God hasalways been taught.
[2] Arguing against ensoulment at “40 days,” which some, including Aristotle, had argued,
Dr. Paul Zacchia, Physician-General of the Vatican, posited in 1621 that ensoulment takes
place at conception and that the unborn child’s physical development is thereafter a
continuum. More than two centuries later, scientific evidence affirmed his hypothesis with
the discovery of the fertilized ovum and later an explanation of the fertilization process.
See Brian Clowes, The Facts of Life, Front Royal, VA: Human Life International, 1997,
page 207, 202-211 in general.
again the source:
cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=1
and another great source:
www.hli.org (which in [2] is referenced, Human Life International, in Front Royal, VA.)
After what I did, I’m reminded of another quote of Fr. Corapi’s that I love:
“God has placed obvious limitations on our intelligence…but none whatsoever on our
stupidity.”
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WillieWonka
Guest
The wiggle room is in the belief that the body and soul unite at the moment of conception. That is not taught as certain by the Church. It says it is probable, therefore leaving open the possibility that the body and soul do not form a composite at conception, but do so at some later time.
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WillieWonka
Guest
I have discovered no contradiction in Church teaching. I am unaware of another doctrine that is in opposition to the Sacred Congregation.
People who had been under the impression the Church taught with certainty that body and soul unite in a composite at conception can now think about the fact thay have been mistaken, and can rectify their idea of what the Church teaches.
People can also think about the responsibility thay have to accurately relate Church teachings when in discussions of various issues.
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WillieWonka
Guest
Natural science cannot detect the soul, so it cannot affirm anything about the soul.Oh brother, I meant to copy and paste the first three paragraphs of that article, not the
last three. (sorry about that, I was on the phone at the time.) Just checked back and realized what I did while I was gabbing away on the phone.
Anyway, here we go.
ISSUE: Has the Catholic Church always taught that abortion is a grave sin? If so, how do you
respond to the charge that the Church only declared abortion to be murder in 1869 under
Pope Pius IX?
RESPONSE: The Catholic Church has always taught that abortion is a grave sin and has always
prohibited Catholics from cooperating in or procuring an abortion. This has been the clear
and constant doctrine of the Catholic Church, as even the ancient Didache, a first-century
document that conveys the teaching of the early Church, affirms: “You shall not procure
abortion, nor destroy a new-born child”[1] (cf. Acts. 2:42,
Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 2270-75). What became clearer over time, because of
advances in biology, was the issue of ensoulment, i.e., when the soul is infused into the
unborn.[2] In addition, the action of Pope Pius IX in 1869 was one of changeable discipline,
not a change in doctrine. In this case, the Pope merely removed the distinction between the
“unensouled” and “ensouled” fetus, making the canonical punishment the same for abortion at
every stage because the soul is infused at conception (Catechism, no. 366).[3] While the
Church does not change her doctrine, she can modify the penalties for violating that
doctrine as she deems appropriate.
not always been completely understood, the fact that it is a grave offense against God hasCode:Thus, while a complete description of all the ways in which abortion offends God has
always been taught.
[2] Arguing against ensoulment at “40 days,” which some, including Aristotle, had argued,
Dr. Paul Zacchia, Physician-General of the Vatican, posited in 1621 that ensoulment takes
place at conception and that the unborn child’s physical development is thereafter a
continuum. **More than two centuries later, scientific evidence affirmed his hypothesis with the discovery of the fertilized ovum and later an explanation of the fertilization process. **
See Brian Clowes, The Facts of Life, Front Royal, VA: Human Life International, 1997,
page 207, 202-211 in general.
again the source:
cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=1
and another great source:
www.hli.org (which in [2] is referenced, Human Life International, in Front Royal, VA.)
After what I did, I’m reminded of another quote of Fr. Corapi’s that I love:
“God has placed obvious limitations on our intelligence…but none whatsoever on our
stupidity.”
The Sasred Congregation says ensoulment at conception is probable, not certain
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allhers
Guest
You obviously just have a bone to pick and just continue in your mantra. Nothing that I referenced for you said anything about it being probable, why didn’t you read it instead of just going on and on with your ignorance?
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estesbob
Guest
Wiggle room for what? Believieng ensoulnment doesnt take place at conception? So what?
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allhers
Guest
Thanks for your opinion. That and a dollar somehing will probably get you a cup of java.
Care to site what you think the Sacred Congregation is saying here, I haven’t seen you reference that, only that you keep repeating it over and over no matter what anyone tells you. Where exactly did you read this?
Link your source.
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Al_Masetti
Guest
The key is the Didache.Anyway, here we go.
ISSUE: Has the Catholic Church always taught that abortion is a grave sin? If so, how do you
respond to the charge that the Church only declared abortion to be murder in 1869 under
Pope Pius IX?
RESPONSE: The Catholic Church has always taught that abortion is a grave sin and has always
prohibited Catholics from cooperating in or procuring an abortion. This has been the clear
and constant doctrine of the Catholic Church, as even the ancient Didache, a first-century
document that conveys the teaching of the early Church, affirms: “You shall not procure
abortion, nor destroy a new-born child”[1] (cf. Acts. 2:42,
After what I did, I’m reminded of another quote of Fr. Corapi’s that I love:
“God has placed obvious limitations on our intelligence…but none whatsoever on our
stupidity.”
It is the FIRST / OLDEST written Christian document. First century.
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WillieWonka
Guest
I have been referencing a document from th Sacred Congregation that Fix posted. This section of the discussion started at post 191. I think that might clear things up a bit.
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WillieWonka
Guest
Wiggle room to believe the soul is or is not united in a composite with the body at conception. Many people say the Church teaches that as certain. The Church does not teach it as certain. It teaches it is probable. So, the Church allows that ensoulment may not take place at conception.
The notion many people have that ensoulment certainly takes place at conception is their opinion, not Church teaching.
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estesbob
Guest
So hw many Angels do you think can dance on the head of a pin…?
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allhers
Guest
That’s true, man how much earlier do some people want?!
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allhers
Guest
Oh, you mean the one that also says this?
4. Charged with the promotion and the defense of faith and morals in the universal Church,
[2] the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith proposes to recall this teaching
in its essential aspects to all the faithful. Thus in showing the unity of the Church, it
will confirm by the authority proper to the Holy See what the bishops have opportunely
undertaken. It hopes that all the faithful, including those who might have been unsettled by
the controversies and new opinions, will understand that it is not a question of opposing
one opinion to another, but of transmitting to the faithful a constant teaching of the
supreme Magisterium, which teaches moral norms in the light of faith.[3] It is therefore
clear that this declaration necessarily entails a grave obligation for Christian consciences
.[4] May God deign to enlighten also all men who strive with their whole heart to “act in
truth” (Jn. 3:21).
and this:
Thus we understand that human life, even on this earth, is precious. Infused by the Creator,
[5] life is again taken back by Him (cf. Gen. 2:7; Wis. 15:11). It remains under His
protection: man’s blood cries out to Him (cf. Gen. 4:10) and He will demand an account of
it, “for in the image of God man was made” (Gen. 9:5-6). The commandment of God is formal:
“You shall not kill” (Ex. 20:13). Life is at the same time a gift and a responsibility. It
is received as a “talent” (cf. Mt. 25:14-30); it must be put to proper use. In order that
life may bring forth fruit, many tasks are offered to man in this world and he must not
shirk them. More important still, the Christian knows that eternal life depends on what,
with the grace of God, he does with his life on earth.
- The tradition of the Church has always held that human life must be protected and
favored from the beginning, just as at the various stages of its development. Opposing the
morals of the Greco-Roman world, the Church of the first centuries insisted on the
difference that exists on this point between those morals and Christian morals. In the
Didache it is clearly said: “You shall not kill by abortion the fruit of the womb and you
shall not murder the infant already born.”[6] Athenagoras emphasizes that Christians
consider as murderers those women who take medicines to procure an abortion; he condemns the
killers of children, including those still living in their mother’s womb, “where they are
already the object of the care of divine Providence.” Tertullian did not always perhaps use
the same language; he nevertheless clearly affirms the essential principle: “To prevent
birth is anticipated murder; it makes little difference whether one destroys a life already
born or does away with it in its nascent stage. The one who will be a man is already one.”
[8]
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