Abortion

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allhers said:
I realize your comment was directed to Gabriella here, but I’d like to say that people that are born to Catholic parents are usually taught by those parents the Catholic teachings, or at least they are suppose to be taught first at home.

They usually also go to some sort of Religious Education, where they are further taught the teachings of Jesus.

Unless one isn’t taught the truth about Jesus’ teachings, then it is possible to say that they were never pro-life to begin with, but when they are taught the truth, normally they are pro-life to begin with, it usually isn’t until they are teenagers that they begin to doubt those teachings when they are saturated by the media, magazines, p.p., other friends who were not taught the truth, and on and on, before they begin to fall for the lies.

This is why it is so necessary for a Catholic to know the teachings of the Catholic Church. It isn’t about what’s popular or acceptable to the “world” but rather its about what God expects and wants from us. (see my signature below.)
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My observation is that Catholics do know the Church teaching on ABC and abortion, but at least 90% disagree with the teaching on ABC, and a majority do not support making abortions illegal. The more educated a population becomes, the less it is willing to accept the argument from authrity from any sector.
 
WillieWonka said:
Using only reason, can you determine your interpretation of Natural Law is correct?
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[1958](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1958.htm’)😉 The natural law is *immutable *and permanent throughout the variations of history;10 it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. Even when it is rejected in its very principles, it cannot be destroyed or removed from the heart of man. It always rises again in the life of individuals and societies:

[1960](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1960.htm’)😉 The precepts of natural law are not perceived by everyone clearly and immediately. In the present situation sinful man needs grace and revelation so moral and religious truths may be known "by everyone with facility, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error."12 The natural law provides revealed law and grace with a foundation prepared by God and in accordance with the work of the Spirit.
 
WillieWonka said:
My observation is that Catholics do know the Church teaching on ABC and abortion, but at least 90% disagree with the teaching on ABC, and a majority do not support making abortions illegal. The more educated a population becomes, the less it is willing to accept the argument from authrity from any sector.
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My observation is that a lot of Catholics are just as ignorant about what artificial birth control does as you are.

Care to site your source, not that I would believe it anyway, on where you claim 90% disagree with the teaching on ABC and that the majority support making abortions legal?
 
fix said:
[1958](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1958.htm’)😉 The natural law is *immutable *and permanent throughout the variations of history;10 it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. Even when it is rejected in its very principles, it cannot be destroyed or removed from the heart of man. It always rises again in the life of individuals and societies:

[1960](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1960.htm’)😉 The precepts of natural law are not perceived by everyone clearly and immediately. In the present situation sinful man needs grace and revelation so moral and religious truths may be known "by everyone with facility, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error."12 The natural law provides revealed law and grace with a foundation prepared by God and in accordance with the work of the Spirit.
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1958 is an assertion that natural law exists. I presume one accepts the asertion of the Church if one has faith in the Church’s infallibility.

1960 tells us grace and revelation are needed to know what natural law says. So, how do we know someone asserting natural law has grace and revelation?
 
allhers said:
Then you haven’t been reading all the posts in this thread. It has been proven that the taking of a life happens when artifical birth control is used also.
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Interesting. How does using a condom or diaphram take a life?
 
allhers said:
My observation is that a lot of Catholics are just as ignorant about what artificial birth control does as you are.

Care to site your source, not that I would believe it anyway, on where you claim 90% disagree with the teaching on ABC and that the majority support making abortions legal?
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How ignorant am I?
 
allhers said:
:
Just to answer this question for you:

The pill, Norplant, Depo-Provera, emergency contraception, the IUD - all of these chemical
contraceptives have three basic modes of operation:

They can act to suppress ovulation (the release of an egg from the ovary). However, women
can and do experience breakthrough ovulation, meaning that an egg is released and available
to be fertilized.

They can cause the cervical mucus to thicken, making it difficult for the sperm to reach the
egg. It is possible, though, for the sperm to break through the mucus and to fertilize the
egg.

They can alter the lining of the uterus making it difficult, if not impossible, for the 7-9
day old developing baby to attach to the uterine lining, where it would receive the
nourishment necessary for further development. The baby would then be expelled from the body
during menstruation. This process is known as a chemical abortion and is why the pill is
referred to as an abortifacient.

source:
all.org/article.php?id=10217&search=abortifacient
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A condom can prevent life, the above post, as I posted long ago ought to answer some of your other questions, and as I said, you’re pretty ignorant, and you aren’t reading the posts obviously.

As Catholics we are to always remain open to life.

Where are YOUR sources for what you claimed - where you claim 90% of Catholics disagree with the teaching on ABC and that the majority support making abortions legal??
 
Here is some other facts for you Willie Wonka, perhaps at some time, you may read these, even if you don’t, maybe others will.

The Sequential Connection Between Contraception and Abortion.
Code: 
   Setting the Stage. In Western nations, pro-abortion groups work for school-based birth control clinics and comprehensive sex education programs that include training in contraceptive use. Alan Guttmacher revealed one of the primary purposes of value-free sex education when he admitted that "The only avenue the International Planned Parenthood Federation and its allies could travel to win the battle for abortion on demand is through sex education."[82]

   In developing nations, population control groups spend hundreds of millions of dollars annually in attempts to saturate indigenous cultures with every available contraceptive and abortifacient. Malcolm Potts, former Medical Director of the International Planned Parenthood Federation (IPPF), said in 1979 that "As people turn to contraception, there will be a rise, not a fall, in the abortion rate."[83]

   Dr. Judith Bury of Canada's Brook Advisory Centre confirmed Potts' view when she said that "There is overwhelming evidence that, contrary to what you might expect, the provision of contraception leads to an increase in the abortion rate."[84] Canadian sex educator David Robinson went even further and stated that "Today abortion is the most widely used birth control method in the world."[85]

   Indeed, some gender feminists see no distinction whatever between artificial contraception and abortion. Kristin Luker, in her revealingly-entitled book Taking Chances:  Abortion and the Decision Not to Contracept, says that "We would argue that since abortion has become a primary method of fertility control, it should be offered and subsidized in exactly the same way that othercontraceptive services are."[86]
sourse:
hli.org/index.php/component/content/article/40-facts-of-life/578-facts-of-life-chapter-21-contraception-1-the-sequential-connection-between-contraception-and-abortion
 
allhers said:
A condom can prevent life, the above post, as I posted long ago ought to answer some of your other questions, and as I said, you’re pretty ignorant, and you aren’t reading the posts obviously.

As Catholics we are to always remain open to life.

Where are YOUR sources for what you claimed - where you claim 90% of Catholics disagree with the teaching on ABC and that the majority support making abortions legal??
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A condom can indeed prevent life. Is that killing?

Go to any Catholic Church on Sunday and count the kids per couple.
 
Were you aware of this Willie Wonka?

Condom Effectiveness Against Venereal Diseases. Most health authorities agree that condoms (when used perfectly and when they do not break, leak or slip) effectively block such venereal diseases as gonorrhea and syphilis. However, condom misuse or breakage can cause massive exposure to these diseases, just as with the HIV virus.
Code: 
   What's more, even perfect use of **unbroken** condoms will not protect against VDs that are spread by skin-to-skin contact, such as human papillomavirus (HPV) and herpes simplex virus (HSV), which frequently infect the entire genital area. Finally, many VDs, such as gonorrhea and herpes, are transmitted by oral sex, which is usually practiced with multiple sexual partners.[25]

   ....
   
   The only way to completely eradicate all VDs is to follow God's plan for our sexual lives:  Abstinence before marriage and fidelity after.

   Of course, the sex educators and condom sellers tell us that this is not a "realistic" solution. They are wrong. Because abstinence/fidelity is the only solution that will work, it is the only realistic solution as well. Perhaps if the health professionals struggle unsuccessfully for another decade or two trying to contain the VD epidemic with impractical means, they too will reach the same conclusion.
source:
hli.org/index.php/component/content/article/40-facts-of-life/571-facts-of-life-chapter-21-contraception-condom-effectiveness-against-venereal-diseases
 
WillieWonka said:
How ignorant am I?
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No more than* most* of the Catholics who promote birth control and abortion.
But I would add that** suffering**,** guilt**, shame and** lack of instruction** have contributed to this* crisis of faith* that many find themselves in today.
We*** all*** need to be more intent upon having a fruitful discussion, than winning an argument. You are at least one of the conscientious people who comes to Catholic forums for answers to your questions, while others only mock those who differ from them on these critical problems.Thank you for being here to have this discussion! You will find the answers, as you continue to “… seek the Truth… with your whole heart…”.
God bless you.
 
WillieWonka said:
A condom can indeed prevent life. Is that killing?

Go to any Catholic Church on Sunday and count the kids per couple.
Click to expand...
If that is your only source, that is pretty pathetic, if you went to the Catholic Church that I attend, and to many others that I’ve been to, you would see that many families still take up the whole pew.
 
allhers said:
Here is some other facts for you Willie Wonka, perhaps at some time, you may read these, even if you don’t, maybe others will.

The Sequential Connection Between Contraception and Abortion.
Code: 
   Setting the Stage. In Western nations, pro-abortion groups work for school-based birth control clinics and comprehensive sex education programs that include training in contraceptive use. Alan Guttmacher revealed one of the primary purposes of value-free sex education when he admitted that "The only avenue the International Planned Parenthood Federation and its allies could travel to win the battle for abortion on demand is through sex education."[82]

   In developing nations, population control groups spend hundreds of millions of dollars annually in attempts to saturate indigenous cultures with every available contraceptive and abortifacient. Malcolm Potts, former Medical Director of the International Planned Parenthood Federation (IPPF), said in 1979 that "As people turn to contraception, there will be a rise, not a fall, in the abortion rate."[83]

   Dr. Judith Bury of Canada's Brook Advisory Centre confirmed Potts' view when she said that "There is overwhelming evidence that, contrary to what you might expect, the provision of contraception leads to an increase in the abortion rate."[84] Canadian sex educator David Robinson went even further and stated that "Today abortion is the most widely used birth control method in the world."[85]

   Indeed, some gender feminists see no distinction whatever between artificial contraception and abortion. Kristin Luker, in her revealingly-entitled book Taking Chances:  Abortion and the Decision Not to Contracept, says that "We would argue that since abortion has become a primary method of fertility control, it should be offered and subsidized in exactly the same way that othercontraceptive services are."[86]
sourse:
hli.org/index.php/component/content/article/40-facts-of-life/578-facts-of-life-chapter-21-contraception-1-the-sequential-connection-between-contraception-and-abortion
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Interesting. What is your point?
 
lil_flower_luv said:
Gabriella was simply advising you to be alittle more respectful in the way you address others. “Love the sinner, hate the sin” remember? None of us can throw a stone.

I do on all except this! It is murder and makes me sick to those who try to justify killing such an helpless thing!

You cannot be Catholic and talk like this:

I know a couple of priest and Bishops that would say other wise on the matter!

‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did *not *do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ See Jesus in everyone and embrace Him.
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Then I really feel sorry for the baby killers!
 
allhers said:
Were you aware of this Willie Wonka?

Condom Effectiveness Against Venereal Diseases. Most health authorities agree that condoms (when used perfectly and when they do not break, leak or slip) effectively block such venereal diseases as gonorrhea and syphilis. However, condom misuse or breakage can cause massive exposure to these diseases, just as with the HIV virus.
Code: 
   What's more, even perfect use of **unbroken** condoms will not protect against VDs that are spread by skin-to-skin contact, such as human papillomavirus (HPV) and herpes simplex virus (HSV), which frequently infect the entire genital area. Finally, many VDs, such as gonorrhea and herpes, are transmitted by oral sex, which is usually practiced with multiple sexual partners.[25]

   ....
   
   The only way to completely eradicate all VDs is to follow God's plan for our sexual lives:  Abstinence before marriage and fidelity after.

   Of course, the sex educators and condom sellers tell us that this is not a "realistic" solution. They are wrong. Because abstinence/fidelity is the only solution that will work, it is the only realistic solution as well. Perhaps if the health professionals struggle unsuccessfully for another decade or two trying to contain the VD epidemic with impractical means, they too will reach the same conclusion.
source:
hli.org/index.php/component/content/article/40-facts-of-life/571-facts-of-life-chapter-21-contraception-condom-effectiveness-against-venereal-diseases
Click to expand...
I agree with the CDC that the only 100% effective way to avoid venereal dseases is to abstain. Nodody denies that.
 
beonthelevel said:
Explain how birth control is anywhere near as bad as abortion? (I never said abortion wasn’t wrong, I am pro-life) Did you read all of my post (and the link) explaining why Catholics think God is against birth control? How does the story of Onan show God is against birth control? Many argue his sin was disobeying his father. You need to know the reasons why you believe what you believe. And I agree God never changes, but the Church has changed a lot.
As for NFP, Fr. Malachi Martin said that it is a sin too, it may be natural, but in your mind you are thinking “Birth Control”.
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if the Church says birth control is wrong, it is wrong… and i think NFP is wrong when used to avoid having any children or having as many as you could…

you either believe the Church or you dont…
 
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