Abortion

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The opening instruction given to Abraham is shocking! The very Word of God—specifically indicates God’s opposition to child sacrifice (Deu. 12:31; 18:10). Yet here, the Almighty Himself instructs Abraham to offer child sacrifice! Why would God give such instructions if it were not meant as an exclamation mark commenting upon the very event itself?
Christianity understands the full typological significance of what took place—as a sign post pointing to the most significant event in all history: when another Father would offer His “only Son” upon the same mountain. The offering of Isaac is a carefully constructed divine pattern which pointed to the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus upon the cross many years later. That this is true can be seen from the numerous typological correlations between this event and the crucifixion.
 
My pro-life stance had little to do with God at first. Look at a 6 week ultra sound and pair that with the fact there are separate genetics present. That was my initial pro-life catalyst.
 
Again, I am not for abortion. I can see however how someone’s conscience can convince one that, after pray and thought, God is ok with them having one.
And if, after prayer and thought, someone is convinced that God is ok with them killing their ten-year-old child, or their mom, or their next-door neighbor, do we go along with that or do we think that person is most likely crazy?

Why make such an allowance for abortion but not for any other modern homicide?

Usagi
 
A bit of commentary on the Isaac situation.

God is indeed the Lord of life and death, and at least permits every human death, whether from old age or sickness or murder by another. And yes, at least in the past, God sometimes seems to have instructed some humans to kill other humans as a mark of His judgment. Significantly, He does not seem to do that any more, especially not after the coming of Christ, but sure, hypothetically He may justly do so.

Isaac was the first instance of a principle that God enacted in his covenant with the Israelites later. Technically, God owned/was owed every firstborn son of the chosen people, along with the firstborn of their flocks and herds and the first fruits of their crops. In the case of the human children, he allowed them to provide a substitute sacrifice instead, because the point was not that God is pleased by filicide but that we are dependent on Him for everything we have. (He even permitted a substitute substitute sacrifice, of considerably lesser expense, in the case of the very poor. Notably, Mary and Joseph are described as making the poor people’s sacrifice – two doves, I believe – to ceremonially redeem Jesus.)

Naturally, Christians would see a foreshadowing of the great substitute sacrifice of God’s own Son in that, just as in the case of Isaac.

Usagi
 
Please stay strong in being pro-life! The answer is simple: Thou shalt not kill. Period. We do not have the right to take the life of another human being. Please remember that Issac did not end up dead… and we do not have the capacity to fully understand the mind of God, so please don’t be tempted to over-analyze this passage until it twists to justification of abortion. Also, please keep in mind there were several things that happened in the Old Testament that were morally wrong that are included because they are part of the history, not because God wants us to emulate those actions!
Please don’t get fooled when our secular society tells us “if you don’t like abortion, don’t have one, but don’t tell someone else what to do with her body!” Joe Biden was wrong when he defended his pro-abortion position by saying he cannot impose his religion’s views on someone else.
A fetal human is not the mother because it is genetically unique, and it is in possession of its own body and own mind (even in conjoined twins who technically share the same body and DNA are considered two separate “persons” because the distinction of two separate consciousnesses.) This is not religious belief, this is science. Ask anyone if a woman pregnant with a boy becomes a hermaphrodite during the gestation. No, she doesn’t, obviously! But why? Because we collectively recognize that the baby is not her body. The fact that it receives direct nourishment is irrelevant, otherwise premature babies kept alive through machines would be considered cyborgs or something. Also, I require air to sustain me. I am not air.

The fetal human is a person because it is a living human being. It is a human because of its DNA, and again, human body and mind. It is living because it exhibits behaviors we recognize as living, such a cell growth, respiration, generation, etc. From about 3 weeks the heartbeat begins, and we can measure brain waves at about 8 weeks. Again, not religion, but science. We are only withholding the title of “person” so we can justify killing. We’ve have trouble in the past in this country when we recognize someone as a living human individual, but not a “person.”

So, we’ve established the baby is an “other.” We’ve established the baby is a living, human person. But does a woman have the true right to dispose of it?

We have a right to our own body (although legally not completely… consider drug laws) but our rights end when they impose upon the right of another. One purpose of the government is to protect, defend, and uphold the rights of its citizens. The right to Life is one of these. The government has a duty to protect this right of LIFE. An abortion infringes upon the right of another living human individual to remain alive. Ergo, the government has a responsibility to legislate against abortions.

The whole “don’t tell me not to have an abortion,” logic falls apart when you extend it to “if you don’t like slavery, don’t own a slave.” “If you don’t like slaughtering Jews, don’t slaughter them… but don’t tell ME what to do!” “If you don’t like shoplifting, then don’t shoplift, but don’t make laws to stop me from doing it.”

Sorry for writing the “War and Peace” of abortion-related posts. I hope it clears things up. :o
 
The opening instruction given to Abraham is shocking! The very Word of God—specifically indicates God’s opposition to child sacrifice (Deu. 12:31; 18:10). Yet here, the Almighty Himself instructs Abraham to offer child sacrifice! Why would God give such instructions if it were not meant as an exclamation mark commenting upon the very event itself?
Christianity understands the full typological significance of what took place—as a sign post pointing to the most significant event in all history: when another Father would offer His “only Son” upon the same mountain. The offering of Isaac is a carefully constructed divine pattern which pointed to the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus upon the cross many years later. That this is true can be seen from the numerous typological correlations between this event and the crucifixion.
You’re not making sense. God would not command something that was evil just to create a type. Abraham made up his mind to kill his son because God told him to. I think this, and other passages in the OT, provide room to sympathy for the women who have abortions, just as the polygamy of the patriarchs gives us reason not to judge the unchaste too harshly
 
I’m not making sense??? Abraham wanted to be obedient to God and was willing to offer Issac but God forbid Abraham to kill Issac. We enjoy the perspective of now knowing that God was testing Abraham and that God was foreshadowing the coming of Christ to be the final sacrifice.
 
God told him to kill his son. What part of that don’t you see?
 
As a test but then God stopped Abraham. God did not permit Abraham to kill Issac. You simply cannot ignore this part of the scripture or what God was doing by having Abraham go to Mount Moriah to offer Issac to God.
 
God allowed Isaac to live out of mercy for Abraham, not out of moral right. God cannot command evil.

So if the human conscience is not created by God to always reject the killing of the innocent as immoral, than one can a comparision with women who have had abortions. Their consciences are in error because God has not given them the EXPLICIT command to abort. But we must connect with this the fact that birth gives the baby a certain entry into society, as even Jesus said “when a woman’s time has come, she is in pain, but then she has joy, because a child has entered into the world”. I don’t know if the Church has the authority to decide when life begins, but the wise Catholic response has been “let’s just not do this”. The Church hierarchy has left us in the dark as to whether She teaches these things infallibly or not. In the meantime, I don’t believe in dividing the country over these issues. Empathy
 

In the meantime, I don’t believe in dividing the country over these issues. Empathy​

Luke 12:51, Matthew 10:34
 
Read Catechism 2271 and then Evanelium vitae is infalliable JP II survived every Bishop and asked if direct willed abortion is murder and they all agreed that would not only make it papal infalliable but Ordinary and universal magisterium
 
Read Catechism 2271 and then Evanelium vitae is infalliable JP II survived every Bishop and asked if direct willed abortion is murder and they all agreed that would not only make it papal infalliable but Orinary and universal magisterium
I didn’t know about the survey. In view of Vatican I, I can sleep tonight knowing this is infallible teachings. Thanks.

I didn’t mean to cause any ripples in the water. I simply want to point out that not all pro-choice women are bad
 
I didn’t know about the survey. In view of Vatican I, I can sleep tonight knowing this is infallible teachings. Thanks.

I didn’t mean to cause any ripples in the water. I simply want to point out that not all pro-choice women are bad
Pro choice women are wrong in their opinion but I agree it dosen’t mean they are bad people they just haven’t had the fullness of truth yet and we need to help them and pray for their conversion. We also should not be mean or uncharitable to women who have had an abortion or several they are just as worthy of healing and forgiveness as any of us are I think it is wonderful that the Church offers ministries like Rachel’s Vineyard for women. A lot of times they were not aware of the grave sin that abortion is and secular society has not helped clear the confusion up by labeling people as a blob of cells and therefore not a human person and women who have had an abortion are just devastated when they learn things like at 13 weeks after conception all the human features are created finger prints are there and their daughter would already have 2,000,000 eggs in her ovaries.

God Bless friend! Have a nice night.
 
God allowed Isaac to live out of mercy for Abraham, not out of moral right. God cannot command evil.
The story of Abraham and Isaac can only be understood in the context of God’s relationship to Abraham. It cannot be extracted and applied to the present situation precisely because it is a pivotal and unique event in salvation history.

Recall that God promised Abram that he would be the father of a nation who would number as many as the stars (hidden from Abraham but visible to God in the daylight sun).

Did Abraham trust God? In some sense he did, however…

After this promise Abraham did have a son, Ishmael, through Sarai’s Egyptian maid Hagar.

When God let Abraham know that the son who would fulfill his promise to Abraham was not Ishmael but a son to be born through his post-menopausal wife, Sarah, Abraham laughed. And so did Sarah. (The name Isaac means “laughter.”)

After Isaac was born, Abraham, acting on his own, sent Hagar and Ishmael into the desert of Bersheeba with little in the way of food or water in order that they would both die. This was a death sentence that Abraham pronounced on Hagar and Ishmael. Unknown to Abraham, God intervened and saved them both.

Why did God test Abraham by asking him to sacrifice Isaac?

Precisely because Abraham did not trust God. He tried to make things that God promised happen in his own way. God was asking Abraham to trust in God’s plan and not take it over.

Abraham thought his first son Ishmael was dead so when God emphasized, “Your only son, Isaac…” that stung Abraham’s conscience because he realized that his actions had completely forsaken God’s covenant with him. He had proven himself untrustworthy and unworthy of a covenant with God because he was responsible (he thought) for the killing of Hagar and Ishmael. In Abraham’s mind, God was taking Isaac away from him because God’s promise of making him the father of a nation had been justly revoked by God.

God demanding that Abraham sacrifice Isaac was to drive the point home to Abraham that God was in charge and that he had jeopardized that. The promise that he would be the father of a nation was being revoked. The fact that Abraham completely understood this was demonstrated by his willingness to leave Isaac in the hands of God. By giving him over to God, so to speak, he was letting God determine the outcome. Abraham was no longer worthy of God’s promise, so it was being taken away from him through the sacrifice of Isaac. Recall that sacrifice in the Old Testament was done in atonement for wrongs done, in this case for the “killing of Hagar and Ishmael.”

Only through Abraham turning Isaac back over to God was the promise fulfilled. Abraham had shown trust in God, but also had an overpowering realization of his own failings.

This says nothing in terms of the justification of sacrificing children. If anything, it is confirmation that God does not want the sacrifice of children, as was prevalent in the area at the time and later. Furthermore, what this episode demonstrates is quite contrary to what you think it shows. It actually came about show that Abraham did not do the right thing by abandoning Hagar and Ishmael to die in the wilderness. Which is precisely the justification of pro choice advocates: abandon preborn children to death if they are not ”in your plan."

The observations of KP3243 in post #19 are right on in terms of showing the detailed way in which God used the episode to foreshadow God’s fulfillment of the promise to Abraham and Abraham’s prophecy that, “God himself will (future tense) provide the lamb.”
 
Aside from the great commentary already given here, the reason these incidents made it into scripture is precisely BECAUSE of how rare it would be for God to command the killing of children, and because for one reason or another, these demands were an integral part of His plan for the history of human salvation.

Comparing that to a woman with an unintended pregnancy who prays to God and then feels that her conscience is settled in killing her own child is pretty far-fetched. Unless God CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN and specifically told this woman to have an abortion, then she is committing murder, plain and simple. You can’t justify abortion by a couple of unique circumstances thousands of years ago in which God spoke to specific individuals for very specific reasons.
 
So God could command you to use contraception, than prevent you after you’ve already started? Do you deny that God commanded His people to kill all the people of Canaan, even the babies?

I am NOT saying that God command this nowadays for the unborn, but He can. The Bible is clear: God is the Lord of life
A kingdom divided cannot stand. How could God command a person in today’s society to kill their unborn child while God’s divinely established Church would stand infallibly opposed against it?

In short, while I do accept the possibility of miraculous signs from God, I reject the possibility that these signs could contradict the teachings of the Catholic Church. Accepting this as a possibility would lend a lot of credence to Islam because, supposedly, their profit recieved instructions from an angel that directly contradicted Church teaching…
 
In the case of Kind David when he killed Bathsheba’s husband so he could marry her, God did impose punishment upon king David. He was to lose his son that would be born of her.

God does impose this type of punishment if he so wills and since God is the author of life, then he may take life when he “decides” to. And God is not breaking any of his own laws since he is above these laws which were imposed on man. He may suspend laws as he may suspend gravity.

But to the point. Mary conceived Jesus in her womb at the moment she said, “be it done to me according to your word”, and then the bible says,“and the Word was made flesh”. From the first instant, she carried the God-Man Jesus in her womb. Since Jesus was in every respect a man just as we are man, then he had a man’s soul from that first instance. The soul and body is what makes a man. Why would we think that we would not be totally conceived from the very first moment if Jesus was. We are talking about a conception so far greater than ours, yet we cannot see that the greater would make the lesser far easier to accept. The son of God and the human soul of Jesus, became one with the tiny bit of flesh, and we cannot accept that we became man, with a soul of God’s making, added to a tiny bit of flesh. Wonder of wonders!

A thought to ponder.
 
But to the point. Mary conceived Jesus in her womb at the moment she said, “be it done to me according to your word”, and then the bible says,“and the Word was made flesh”. From the first instant, she carried the God-Man Jesus in her womb. Since Jesus was in every respect a man just as we are man, then he had a man’s soul from that first instance. The soul and body is what makes a man. Why would we think that we would not be totally conceived from the very first moment if Jesus was. We are talking about a conception so far greater than ours, yet we cannot see that the greater would make the lesser far easier to accept. The son of God and the human soul of Jesus, became one with the tiny bit of flesh, and we cannot accept that we became man, with a soul of God’s making, added to a tiny bit of flesh. Wonder of wonders!

A thought to ponder.
Yes indeed. A very ponderable thought! :hmmm:
 
I am very scared to say this but it needs to come out, I have had an abortion. Because the baby would not have made it to term and she was risking my life also. I regret this since the day I held her and she will always be in my heart. Am I going to hell?
 
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