Abortion

[raymondnicholas]

Getting back to the original question, my thoughts stem primarily from my understanding of the New Testament and not the Old Testament. I’ll keep it simple.** My admonitions are directed towards Catholics and their spiritual lives.**

The path to Hell is lined with the skulls of bishops. Perhaps in this day and age we should add priests, nuns, canon lawyers, apologists, theologians, politicians, moral relativists, intellectual elites, and your average pewsitter who has never read, understood, and ignored the Words of Christ, the Acts of the Apostles, any verse read at Mass, and the Catechism–as an adult.

Moral relativism is not a tenant of the Faith, nor is being a coward. Can anyone picture themselves on the cross, willingly? A martyr in the time of Nero burning like a torch in the arena? Or a saint who has received the stigmata, the pain and blood, or someone like St. Agatha, who would rather have her breasts cut off than submit to the state religion?

Joe Biden, Ted Kennedy, etc. are shameful, not to be admired, in their public rejection of the Faith, yet we have a multitude of sheepish Catholics following their leads. The Catholic Church is not a non-governmental social services organization; its purpose is to lead souls to Heaven! Every day, when the day is done, I ask myself, is what I am thinking, saying, and doing taking me one step closer to Heaven or to Hell?

Conscience is not an excuse for knowingly committing a grave evil. An informed conscience would say, “STOP!” The excuse is simply a rationalization of evil because it satisfies. So, does anyone think it’s OK to vote for someone who believes in the culture of death, who practices a theology of death-dealing? If anyone had the guts to read the report on the butcher of West Philadelphia and see the photos of his partial birth abortions and the severed spines of the full-grown babies, would they still feel the same? Or is it all just an abstract game of non-consequence?

Anyone out there who believes lin the theology of abortion, can you tell me how it jives with what Christ said regarding the two greatest commandments? BTW, I have yet to see a CINO defend thier psoition on a strictly theological basis.

 

[raymondnicholas]

I am very scared to say this but it needs to come out, I have had an abortion. Because the baby would not have made it to term and she was risking my life also. I regret this since the day I held her and she will always be in my heart. Am I going to hell?

If you are Catholic, I would say first, have a face-to-face confession with a good priest, go to Mass, and receive the Eucharist. I assume these are the proper steps, although there may be more to the process because of the abortion, I’m not sure. Do not be afraid! God is merciful and just.

Second, make a sincere effort to do the Sacraments frequently, like attedning Mass, etc. Make formal and informal prayer a part of your life. Learn more of your Faith. Do not despair if you sin!

Third, seek out a Catholic post-abortion counselor; perhaps there are gorups out there who can share in your difficulties. You need not feel like the whole world is crushing in on you or against you!

Fourth, if you have family, hopefully they will understand what you are going through and will support you. But if they are not on your side, do not dwell on it, ignore them. It takes courage to stand on your own two feet.

Hope this helps.

 

[Jleigh]

Thank you for that! Daily prayer and mass are part of my life and I am thankful everyday, And I will talk to Father. Thanks Again

 

[StevenFrancis]

I use to have peace about my pro-life stance, now I feel like I am being judgmental

Dear thinkandmull:

FACT: An unborn child is a living human being.
FACT: We are not to murder. This is not only a religious commandment, but it is part of natural law, and an intrinsic axiom of morality for all persons regardless of religious affiliation.
FACT: Killing an unborn child is a pre-meditated act of murder. Having it done is contracting for murder. Performing the procedure is direct murder. Assisting in the performance of it is being an accomplice to murder. Knowingly giving financial or moral support to the performance of it is aiding and abetting in murder.
FACT: To believe these basic principles is not judgemental. It is right and just.

I wouldn’t start feeling “judgemental”.

As to the rest of your post, Gov. Romney had a change of heart. I thought he described it honestly and clearly way back at the beginning of his campaign, and a couple of times in the Republican primaries. He satisfied me. While I have always been pro-life, there are many other things in my life which I would argue on one side of, that many years ago, I would have argued just as strongly on the other side of. I have undergone nearly a complete transformation, death and rebirth in the past several years, and this is evidence to me that this happens to other persons as well. I don’t feel unique in this. If someone tells me that they have legitimately changed their stance on some issue or another, I believe them, unless I see some strong evidence to the contrary.

Peace,

Steven

 

[sophion]

People asked me when a fetus becomes a person. The answer is the 3rd Trimester:

*Last of all to mature is the cerebral cortex, which is responsible for most of what we think of as mental life–conscious experience, voluntary actions, thinking, remembering, and feeling. It has only begun to function around the time gestation comes to an end.
*

main.zerotothree.org/site/PageServer?pagename=ter_key_brainFAQ

since fetuses can survive outside the womb by the 2nd trimester i would agree with the Roman policy that abortion is limited to:
Abortion in Italy became legal in May 1978, when Italian women were allowed to terminate a pregnancy on demand during the first 90 days. *

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Italy

after that then only be extreme circumstances…like life when the mother’s life is at risk.

 

[clem456]

People asked me when a fetus becomes a person. The answer is the 3rd Trimester:

*Last of all to mature is the cerebral cortex, which is responsible for most of what we think of as mental life–conscious experience, voluntary actions, thinking, remembering, and feeling. It has only begun to function around the time gestation comes to an end.
*

main.zerotothree.org/site/PageServer?pagename=ter_key_brainFAQ

since fetuses can survive outside the womb by the 2nd trimester i would agree with the Roman policy that abortion is limited to:
Abortion in Italy became legal in May 1978, when Italian women were allowed to terminate a pregnancy on demand during the first 90 days*.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Italy

after that then only be extreme circumstances…like life when the mother’s life is at risk.

Evil happens when mere opinion trumps basic human dignity.
You have an opinion on when life begins. I have an opinion that it starts at conception. We should give every benefit of the doubt to protecting life at every stage and level of functioning, because if human life is deemed worthless, all are devalued. .
Somewhere sometime, there will be an opinion that you are not worthy of life.

Here’s the still unanswered question:
Should -your- life be taken at the whim of someone’s opinion? Or should you be give every benefit of the doubt?

 

[sophion]

Evil happens when mere opinion trumps basic human dignity.
You have an opinion on when life begins. I have an opinion that it starts at conception. We should give every benefit of the doubt to protecting life at every stage and level of functioning, because if human life is deemed worthless, all are devalued. .
Somewhere sometime, there will be an opinion that you are not worthy of life.

Here’s the still unanswered question:
Should -your- life be taken at the whim of someone’s opinion? Or should you be give every benefit of the doubt?

actually your question was this:

again, if an unborn can be killed because of it’s stage of physical development
why should you not be killed when you need a hip replacement?

because an adult is a person while a 90day old fetus is not.

you are much too black & white. look at reality. abortion has been going on in italy since the 70s. are people’s lives devalued today 40 years later?

 

[clem456]

actually your question was this:

because an adult is a person while a 90day old fetus is not.

you are much too black & white. look at reality. abortion has been going on in italy since the 70s. are people’s lives devalued today 40 years later?

You are dodging the question. Man up.

 

[clem456]

And as a sidebar, how do you reconcile your status:

Religion: Agnostic Theist. I believe in God but not in Religion

with the fact that people other than yourself exist?

 

[sophion]

You are dodging the question. Man up.

i answered yesterdays question. okay now i’ll answer your latest question:

Should -your- life be taken at the whim of someone’s opinion? Or should you be give every benefit of the doubt?

NO & YES

why? because i am a person. a SENTIENT BEING.

And as a sidebar, how do you reconcile your status:

with the fact that people other than yourself exist?

tell me the contradiction before i can reconcile anything.

 

[clem456]

i answered yesterdays question. okay now i’ll answer your latest question:

NO & YES

why? because i am a person. a SENTIENT BEING.

I don’t care. If you break a hip, my opinion is you should be killed. That’s my opinion, and my opinipon is god.
Your opinion is a helpless unborn without sentience is not human, I disagee.
Let the games begin, and I feel bad for anyone who gets in the way of your brand of morality.

tell me the contradiction before i can reconcile anything.

The contradiction is, you claim to believe in God, but not religion. Thats an absurdity.

And if you do not believe in religion, what are you doing here day after day debating with other people. Why don’t you make a committment? You’re already practicing.

 

[sophion]

I don’t care. If you break a hip, my opinion is you should be killed. That’s my opinion, and my opinipon is god.

problem with that is that if you break a hip you will be killed too. and so you wont get a majority vote that will pass such a law. nobody wants to die for breaking a hip!

The contradiction is, you claim to believe in God, but not religion. Thats an absurdity.

it works. whats absurd about that.

problem is you have a very narrow view. its either your version of god & religion or nothing.

And if you do not believe in religion, what are you doing here day after day debating with other people. Why don’t you make a committment? You’re already practicing.

i came here to ask what catholics see as Oral Traditions. just so happens i saw some of these interesting discussions and i cant resist not participating

 

[clem456]

problem with that is that if you break a hip you will be killed too. and so you wont get a majority vote that will pass such a law. nobody wants to die for breaking a hip!

Still you dodge and weave. You are very good at evasion.

Using your own morality that human life is subject to opinions based on various defects or stages of development (take it slow please)…

Is it not also proper to have you killed for your broken hip, that makes you damaged goods and a burden to others?
You want to use medical and biological criteria for one circumstance, why not the other?

problem is you have a very narrow view. its either your version of god & religion or nothing.

You believe in God then, but not religion. Again…(getting tiresome)
What about other people? You are not the only person on the planet, evidenced by the fact that we are having a conversation here.
How is your belief working out, in the context of other people? Because you say you believe in God, but do not believe in religion.

i came here to ask what catholics see as Oral Traditions. just so happens i saw some of these interesting discussions and i cant resist not participating

And you are fooling who with this statement of non-agenda? Anyone who has seen your posts knows this is BS.

 

[Peter_Plato]

why? because i am a person. a SENTIENT BEING.

So where in the rule books does it say that having actualized some of the potential of being a sentient being (through no merit or fiat of your own) gives you the right to determine the policy of when and how others become persons? That is a mighty huge responsibility you have taken upon yourself. Millions dead because of this policy that you subscribe to. Hitler’s accomplishments pale in comparison.

You believe in God. Wouldn’t it make more sense to leave it to him when exactly we become persons? He says, through natural law, “At conception is when a human being has all they need to become a human person.” You say, “That doesn’t matter, I have determined through my own “infallible” thinking (regardless of what the 2000 year long consideration of the Church is) that it is after the first trimester. Why? Because I am sentient.”

So merely being sentient makes you infallible? You have never made an error, Sir Sentient?

You had better pray you are right because if not you are counseling others to commit the killing (premeditated and therefore, murder?) of an innocent human being. In most states that was a crime before Roe v Wade.

Doesn’t that give you pause to consider that perhaps you should take a great deal more time and thought before making such a statement?

 

[sophion]

Still you dodge and weave. You are very good at evasion.

dodge what? i answered all your questions. i merely pointed out the problem in your ‘opinion’ and why its not gonna work.

You are the one who totally evaded the fact i pointed out that after 40 years of abortion in italy people’s lives are still cherished. right?

You believe in God then, but not religion. Again…(getting tiresome)
What about other people? You are not the only person on the planet, evidenced by the fact that we are having a conversation here.
How is your belief working out, in the context of other people? Because you say you believe in God, but do not believe in religion.

looks like its gonna take me a while explaining this to you. why dont you make a thread where we can do this?

 

[clem456]

dodge what? i answered all your questions. i merely pointed out the problem in your ‘opinion’ and why its not gonna work.

You are the one who totally evaded the fact i pointed out that after 40 years of abortion in italy people’s lives are still cherished. right?

Still you dodge and weave. You are very good at evasion.

Using your own morality that human life is subject to opinions based on various defects or stages of development (take it slow please)…

Is it not also proper to have you killed for your broken hip, that makes you damaged goods and a burden to others?
You want to use medical and biological criteria for one circumstance, why not the other?

looks like its gonna take me a while explaining this to you. why dont you make a thread where we can do this?

This statement of yours is absurd,

I believe in God but not religion

I’m just hoping you will think. Your foundation is shifting quicksand.
How does your statement of faith work, in the context of other human beings?

 

[sophion]

So where in the rule books does it say that having actualized some of the potential of being a sentient being (through no merit or fiat of your own) gives you the right to determine the policy of when and how others become persons? That is a mighty huge responsibility you have taken upon yourself. Millions dead because of this policy that you subscribe to. Hitler’s accomplishments pale in comparison.

You believe in God. Wouldn’t it make more sense to leave it to him when exactly we become persons? He says, through natural law, “At conception is when a human being has all they need to become a human person.” You say, “That doesn’t matter, I have determined through my own “infallible” thinking (regardless of what the 2000 year long consideration of the Church is) that it is after the first trimester. Why? Because I am sentient.”

So merely being sentient makes you infallible? You have never made an error, Sir Sentient?

You had better pray you are right because if not you are counseling others to commit the killing (premeditated and therefore, murder?) of an innocent human being. In most states that was a crime before Roe v Wade.

Doesn’t that give you pause to consider that perhaps you should take a great deal more time and thought before making such a statement?

i gave the link the scientific basis of when a fetus becomes a person. please look it up.
abortion is already legal in many parts of the world, even in rome itself. i am just showing you guys the reasons why attempts to appeal such laws always fail.

 

[Peter_Plato]

i gave the link the scientific basis of when a fetus becomes a person. please look it up.

This assumes that only being a person is relevant and the potential is unimportant. A chicken cannot become a chicken without being an egg. Crush the egg, you kill the developing chicken. Seems very relevant to me.

abortion is already legal in many parts of the world, even in rome itself. i am just showing you guys the reasons why attempts to appeal such laws always fail.

Didn’t you mother ever say to you, “If Joe told you to jump off a bridge, is that reason for you to?” Just because Rome is doing it, doesn’t make it right. Rome is a secular city, the Vatican is a different bird, by the way.

 

[sophion]

Still you dodge and weave. You are very good at evasion.

Using your own morality that human life is subject to opinions based on various defects or stages of development (take it slow please)…

Is it not also proper to have you killed for your broken hip, that makes you damaged goods and a burden to others?
You want to use medical and biological criteria for one circumstance, why not the other?

new question

no its not proper because eventually everyone gets injured. so such a law means everyone would be killed sooner or later. so such a law is unthinkable. right?

 

[sophion]

This assumes that only being a person is relevant and the potential is unimportant. A chicken cannot become a chicken without being an egg. Crush the egg, you kill the developing chicken. Seems very relevant to me.

we eat eggs all the time. we also use it for entertainment…smashing and wasting it. nobody complains. but do that to a chicken and people scream “ANIMAL CRUELTY!”.

its just different when you see something actually suffer.