Abortion

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Tyrael_the_Arch

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So I’ve always been a pretty liberal person, I’m still very liberal on several issues including gay marriage and healthcare and poverty, but I don’t want to talk about any of that today. I want to discuss the topic of abortion.
Abortion is one of the few issues that I almost entirely align with the right on. Even if I were not a Catholic I still wouldn’t support abortion because it is the extermination of a human being. The arguments for abortion including “its her body and her choice” or “its not a human because it hasn’t grown yet, just like a seed isnt a tree” make no sense to me because its NOT her body or her choice, its the body of the child shes giving birth to. She has as much “choice” in that decision as an SS officer does when he decides who gets to die today in the gas chamber. And while it’s true that it isn’t human being yet, it’s still going to grow into a human being and no human being will ever resemble that one. It was a unique product of one strain of DNA in the sperm cell joining a unique strain of DNA in the egg cell. You can never replicate it ever again.
I think a part of why people no sympathy towards aborted babies is because overpopulation creates an idea (of economic origin) that the more humans there are, the less our value is, the same way that paper has no virtually no value while gold, a much rarer substance, is prized and envied. But human beings cannot be thought of in purely economic standards because we have living souls and minds that are above material laws. Even an atheist or agnostic could agree on that.
 
You make good points.

At the time of Roe v. Wade, medical science knew almost nothing about what goes on inside a uterus. There was no ethical way to do any type of study.

Today, we know a great deal. We have imaging technology that was unknown in the early 70’s. Today, we even do surgery on babies while still in the womb. I foresee a day when a baby could be removed from the womb and the umbilical cord attached to machine that would sustain life. (This would be useful in some cases, such as if a mother discovers she has cancer while she is pregnant and needs to undergo treatment that would kill the baby.)

I find it interesting that we can charge criminals with manslaughter for killing unborn babies, but an abortionist could kill that same baby and it would be perfectly legal.

I hope that future generations will look back on our society and be horrified at what we allowed to happen, much as we look back on slavery.
 
This is also the one thing I never wavered from standing with the Church on even in my most doubtful of days away from Her. I have never understood the “It’s her body” argument. It is the baby’s body. They say it is “her choice” - why would it not be the baby’s choice whether or not it wants to be terminated? (Note, this is hypothetical and I do not condone an individual choosing to end his/ her life, either, as it should be God’s will that is the “choice” concerning all matters of life and death). I see no logical way of condining abortion, even if one is not Catholic. To decide for a baby whether or not it wants to live is nonsensical. I ask pro-choicers if their mothers were contemplating abortion whether or not they would have wanted the choice instead of her - to be asked whether or not it would be okay with them to be terminated. At this point, they usually resort to the whole “it’s not a baby” or “it’s not alive” argument, which requires some pretty extensive self-brainwashing…
 
Tyrael_the_Arch said:
while it’s true that it isn’t human being yet, it’s still going to grow into a human being
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts. As to your quote here, I think I know what you mean, but rest assured a human being exists at the moment of conception. It is a nascent human being, but a human being nonetheless. :o
 
Your points are quite valid.

Unfortunately, abortion ultimately boils down to our society’s refusal to acknowledge that the sexual act must be open to the possibility of life. As long as the mentality of “sex without consequences” remains prevalent in our society people are going to be reluctant to acknowledge the facts about abortion because, at the back of their minds, the doubt will linger: “what if my contraception fails?”

At the end of the day, issues like same-sex “marriage” and abortion seem miles apart, but they actually both stem from the same fundamental error: the acceptance of a sexual act that is closed to the possibility of life.
 
The word “abortion” means to end. To “destroy” before finishing. To “let go” before a mission is completed. Those who approve of and argue FOR abortion do not SEE the
result of their actions at all. There is no visible/physical evidence of their action. They can
abort without anyone ever knowing what they did. They, most often, feel no guilt whatsoever. They can repeat this act over and over. They have strayed from goodness,
love, responsibility, kindness, concern, and life. Our society has become riddled with self love which destroys a loving nation. Our Government is interfering with religion, which they have no right to do. Church and State are supposed to be separate 100%. The Federal and State Governments encourage abortion by allowing and approving of abortion by legislation.
I know I may have strayed off with my response. I am so upset and concerned for our young people and their souls, that I get consumed with how rapidly abortion is becoming so rampart. Please pray always for those aborted babies and those who allow its continuation.
 
I heard a bio-ethicist speak on the issue of abortion and his thoughts should dispel any logical misgivings held by those that oppose the pro-life position. His comments were along the following lines:

The legitimacy of killing the unborn depends solely upon whether or not the unborn are human beings. If the unborn are human beings, than no argument can justify abortion. Based on this obvious point, it is necessary to explore the common characteristics and the apparent differences between the born and the unborn. We know that a person’s genetic material is identical from conception through adulthood. Therefore, we know that the unborn at any stage of development will never be anything other than a human being. It also follows that any person alive today is the same person they were when they lived inside their mother’s womb.

Most people that argue in favor of abortion believe that it is the differences between the born and the unborn that justify abortion. They even go so far as to say that the unborn is not a human being. The only differences between the born and the unborn are size, level of development, environment, and dependency. Obviously, an adult is larger than a child, but the adult’s size does not make him more human than the child. Likewise the tiny unborn human in the womb is no less human because she is smaller than the rest of us. We also know that a small child has not reached sexual maturity and is, therefore, less developed than an adult. The ability to reproduce does not make the adult more human than the child. Therefore, the level of development is not a factor in determining whether we are human beings. If the level of development were the determining factor we could easily decide to kill anyone prior to reaching puberty. The environment or location of an adult does not determine his or her humanity eitheer. We are no less human while flying at 30,000 ft. in an airplane, than when we are sitting in the airport. Likewise, the environment or location of the unborn (i.e. the womb) does not make the unborn less human than when it takes its first breath in the delivery room.

We must also apply the same kind of logic to the last difference between the born and the unborn. Obviously, if someone is in Intensive Care at a hospital while recovering from an accident, their level of dependency would be significant. No one would argue, however, that the individual was less human during their recovery than before the accident or after the recovery. Likewise, an infant or even a small child is totally dependent on the parents, but the infant and child are considered human beings. The same holds true for the unborn. While she/he may be in the mother’s womb and may be completely dependent on the mother, she/he is still a human being. The level of dependency does not determine whether or not he/she is a human being.

I hope this is helpful in future discussions you may have with those that are in favor of abortion.

God bless.
 
My father is agnostic, and very liberal, but when I was growing up when it came to abortion he always told us that it was a baby. It doesn’t come out a puppy dog to quote himexactly.
 
jimperu said:
The word “abortion” means to end. To “destroy” before finishing. To “let go” before a mission is completed. Those who approve of and argue FOR abortion do not SEE the
result of their actions at all. There is no visible/physical evidence of their action. They can
abort without anyone ever knowing what they did. They, most often, feel no guilt whatsoever. They can repeat this act over and over. They have strayed from goodness,
love, responsibility, kindness, concern, and life. Our society has become riddled with self love which destroys a loving nation. Our Government is interfering with religion, which they have no right to do. Church and State are supposed to be separate 100%. The Federal and State Governments encourage abortion by allowing and approving of abortion by legislation.
I know I may have strayed off with my response. I am so upset and concerned for our young people and their souls, that I get consumed with how rapidly abortion is becoming so rampart. Please pray always for those aborted babies and those who allow its continuation.
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This is, by and large, not true. Women who have had abortions have tremendous guilt and pain, as well as physical, emotional, and spiritual consequences. They sometimes cover their pain with addictions to alcohol and/or drugs, or they will be promiscuous and perhaps even get pregnant again, a “replacement” baby for the one they aborted. It’s a horrible secret that women have kept all these years, that there is no relief from pain after an abortion, there is only regret and guilt. I know some people appear as though they have no conscience, but women know when they’ve been pregnant and their minds, hearts, and bodies know when that baby is ripped out of them and killed. The mothers suffer, no matter how hard they try to convince themselves otherwise.
 
It’s only her body if her body has 2 heads, 4 arms, 4 legs, etc.

I strongly suspect that a great many abortion supporters know at some level that it really is a human child. But the convenience and agenda and lifestyle involved is just too important to them to face the truth.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
This is, by and large, not true. Women who have had abortions have tremendous guilt and pain, as well as physical, emotional, and spiritual consequences. They sometimes cover their pain with addictions to alcohol and/or drugs, or they will be promiscuous and perhaps even get pregnant again, a “replacement” baby for the one they aborted. It’s a horrible secret that women have kept all these years, that there is no relief from pain after an abortion, there is only regret and guilt. I know some people appear as though they have no conscience, but women know when they’ve been pregnant and their minds, hearts, and bodies know when that baby is ripped out of them and killed. The mothers suffer, no matter how hard they try to convince themselves otherwise.
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I agree with you. However, I strongly believe that there are millions that have No guilty feelings at all. For too many it is just acceptable as a way of life. Why do they march by the hundreds of thousands year after year, fighting for the right to perform such an act? there are many without a conscience that could care less. They neither pray, go to Church or even think of God and His Commandments. The woman you mention do have a GUILTY
conscience and suffer, buy too many DO NOT.
 
jimperu said:
I agree with you. However, I strongly believe that there are millions that have No guilty feelings at all. For too many it is just acceptable as a way of life. Why do they march by the hundreds of thousands year after year, fighting for the right to perform such an act? there are many without a conscience that could care less. They neither pray, go to Church or even think of God and His Commandments. The woman you mention do have a GUILTY
conscience and suffer, but too many DO NOT.
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It could be that their consciences are not yet awakened. You see this in the many abortion clinic workers that are abandoning their jobs and changing their stance. This is happening more and more often.
At one point I thought that having an abortion would be the responsible thing to do, if I should get pregnant before marriage. I never thought it had anything to do with a baby. I later converted to Christianity, and woke up one morning and thought, “Abortion is wrong.” That was the Holy Spirit at work! I don’t know how other people change their minds, but I know they do. We should pray for them.
And of course if they have had an abortion, they have a vested interest in keeping their minds closed,because of the pain that might follow realization.
 
jimperu said:
I agree with you. However, I strongly believe that there are millions that have No guilty feelings at all. For too many it is just acceptable as a way of life. Why do they march by the hundreds of thousands year after year, fighting for the right to perform such an act? there are many without a conscience that could care less. They neither pray, go to Church or even think of God and His Commandments. The woman you mention do have a GUILTY
conscience and suffer, buy too many DO NOT.
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No, you are thinking from the outside. The ones who march are in denial, and many of them have had abortions and cannot face what they have done, so they defend it as being a right. It is like any other defense mechanism. We protest what is already pricking our conscience. In their hearts, these women all know that what they went through was bad. There is no abortion that is pain free or that doesn’t hurt the woman in many ways. Some are better at denial than others. But I have watched women come out of Planned Parenthood day after day, some sobbing quietly, some stopping to vomit (PP staff never helps them), some in shock. Many are escorted by someone else, either a boyfriend who pressured them into having the abortion, or perhaps a friend or relative who has been on the table themselves. They are like people in a country that’s been at war for a long time. They’ve forgotten who the real enemy is.

Many times, the women who scream the loudest for abortion rights are the ones who are in the greatest emotional pain.

Also, there aren’t as many of them protesting FOR abortion as you seem to think - they are aborting their progeny and being pro-abortion is a dying ethos.
 
snarflemike said:
It’s only her body if her body has 2 heads, 4 arms, 4 legs, etc.

I strongly suspect that a great many abortion supporters know at some level that it really is a human child. But the convenience and agenda and lifestyle involved is just too important to them to face the truth.
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The horror of it is, that most abortions are coerced. That mother is not making the “choice” on her own but being pressured into it by others, including the baby’s father, whom she is already emotionally bonded with through sexual intercourse. So his pressure affects her deeply. Then her own parents or other family members could also be forcing her to have the abortion. It is rare that a woman chooses abortion totally without coercion and/or force.
 
Pax said:
I heard a bio-ethicist speak on the issue of abortion and his thoughts should dispel any logical misgivings held by those that oppose the pro-life position. His comments were along the following lines:

The legitimacy of killing the unborn depends solely upon whether or not the unborn are human beings. If the unborn are human beings, than no argument can justify abortion. Based on this obvious point, it is necessary to explore the common characteristics and the apparent differences between the born and the unborn. We know that a person’s genetic material is identical from conception through adulthood. Therefore, we know that the unborn at any stage of development will never be anything other than a human being. It also follows that any person alive today is the same person they were when they lived inside their mother’s womb.

Most people that argue in favor of abortion believe that it is the differences between the born and the unborn that justify abortion. They even go so far as to say that the unborn is not a human being. The only differences between the born and the unborn are size, level of development, environment, and dependency. Obviously, an adult is larger than a child, but the adult’s size does not make him more human than the child. Likewise the tiny unborn human in the womb is no less human because she is smaller than the rest of us. We also know that a small child has not reached sexual maturity and is, therefore, less developed than an adult. The ability to reproduce does not make the adult more human than the child. Therefore, the level of development is not a factor in determining whether we are human beings. If the level of development were the determining factor we could easily decide to kill anyone prior to reaching puberty. The environment or location of an adult does not determine his or her humanity eitheer. We are no less human while flying at 30,000 ft. in an airplane, than when we are sitting in the airport. Likewise, the environment or location of the unborn (i.e. the womb) does not make the unborn less human than when it takes its first breath in the delivery room.

We must also apply the same kind of logic to the last difference between the born and the unborn. Obviously, if someone is in Intensive Care at a hospital while recovering from an accident, their level of dependency would be significant. No one would argue, however, that the individual was less human during their recovery than before the accident or after the recovery. Likewise, an infant or even a small child is totally dependent on the parents, but the infant and child are considered human beings. The same holds true for the unborn. While she/he may be in the mother’s womb and may be completely dependent on the mother, she/he is still a human being. The level of dependency does not determine whether or not he/she is a human being.

I hope this is helpful in future discussions you may have with those that are in favor of abortion.

God bless.
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A lot of great arguments here, thanks 🙂
The Church I go to has a shrine of the Virgin Mary covered in roses and each rose is supposed to be dedicated to an aborted fetus. Its really beautiful and serene, a good place to pray in. The first time I went there was when I began to really think about abortion.
 
I am of course totally against abortion but what does the scripture mean “Man has no preemanace above a beast”?
 
Viki63 said:
It could be that their consciences are not yet awakened. You see this in the many abortion clinic workers that are abandoning their jobs and changing their stance. This is happening more and more often.
At one point I thought that having an abortion would be the responsible thing to do, if I should get pregnant before marriage. I never thought it had anything to do with a baby. I later converted to Christianity, and woke up one morning and thought, “Abortion is wrong.” That was the Holy Spirit at work! I don’t know how other people change their minds, but I know they do. We should pray for them.
And of course if they have had an abortion, they have a vested interest in keeping their minds closed,because of the pain that might follow realization.
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Viki63, Lets both pray for all women who have had abortions or are considering one. And those aborted babies. You have great points of view and I appreciate your sensitivity from a woman point of view, I needed that. Bless You Viki…
 
Tyrael_the_Arch said:
So I’ve always been a pretty liberal person, I’m still very liberal on several issues including gay marriage and healthcare and poverty, but I don’t want to talk about any of that today. I want to discuss the topic of abortion.
Abortion is one of the few issues that I almost entirely align with the right on. Even if I were not a Catholic I still wouldn’t support abortion because it is the extermination of a human being. The arguments for abortion including “its her body and her choice” or “its not a human because it hasn’t grown yet, just like a seed isnt a tree” make no sense to me because its NOT her body or her choice, its the body of the child shes giving birth to. She has as much “choice” in that decision as an SS officer does when he decides who gets to die today in the gas chamber. And while it’s true that it isn’t human being yet, it’s still going to grow into a human being and no human being will ever resemble that one. It was a unique product of one strain of DNA in the sperm cell joining a unique strain of DNA in the egg cell. You can never replicate it ever again.
I think a part of why people no sympathy towards aborted babies is because overpopulation creates an idea (of economic origin) that the more humans there are, the less our value is, the same way that paper has no virtually no value while gold, a much rarer substance, is prized and envied. But human beings cannot be thought of in purely economic standards because we have living souls and minds that are above material laws. Even an atheist or agnostic could agree on that.
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I applaud you for being pro-life 👍 but I disagree with your statement that an unborn child
it isn’t human being yet,
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It most certainly IS human! If it’s not a human being, then what is it? An egg and a sperm are not human, but at the moment of conception, a human being is created. That embryo is just in it’s earliest stages of development. Even after birth, we still develop up until death. An infant doesn’t look the same as a 5yo, a 12yo, an 18yo, a 25yo, and 85yo etc… But, that embryo looks exactly like it should in the human beings earliest days of life.

If you want to learn more about Roe v. Wade, here’s a good site: endroe.org and I find abort73.com to be a good site as well on the abortion issues.
 
Well, I think the argument of “It’s not a human-- it’s just a bunch of cells!”, which is commonly used by pro-choicers, is an altogether callous statement. I believe that a fetus is more than the sum of its parts; it’s a seperate creation than that of the mother. It doesn’t belong to the mother-- it belongs to God. To attack the sacredness of life is to attack God’s very character.
 
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