Abortion..

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renee1258:
The law professor used this analogy.

You have an eight year old son that would die without a bone marrow transplant. You as the parent are a match, to your child. But you refuse to go through with any bone marrow transfusion. Your child dies.

…The same application to mother and child within the womb. Instead of a bone marrow transfusion, instead is an umbillicord connecting the two of them for nine months. A mother’s bodily intergrity not to be connected to her child for nurishment has a stronger right then her child’s life, despite the fact her child would die.

For you to accept abortion to be a moral right, you have to accept a parent’s right to refuse the bone marrow transfusion and allowing their eight year old child to die.
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I cannot accept the professor’s analogy. It is not an apples to apples comparison. I hope someone challenges this professor. There is a huge difference between abortion and refusing to do a marrow transplant!

It would be more like the difference between euthenasia and saying do not recessitate (spelling?). One (abortion) is taking an action to end a life, and the other is deciding not to take action to preserve a life. One is active, the other is passive.

There is a significant difference morally, in my opinion!

There would not be nearly the level of debate about this issue if this were not the case. Abortion would not be such a heinous, sickening crime if it didn’t involve someone (actually a team of people) making a decision and taking action to purposefully end a life.

Unvelievable this is happening.
 
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UKStudent:
But the governmental view is that a foetus(at the stage where abortion is legal at least) is not yet a human being. At that stage it is a undeveloped parasitem, feeding off the mother.
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Not much help regarding the UK government. The US governmental view is that an unborn child is a human being, at least from the time of implantation. What is debated here is whether that human being should be endowed with rights as a legal person. There is no scientific way to defend a position that the baby is not a human being. Personhood and human rights get messier.

Most people here in the US believe that the baby does have personhood and at least some rights. This is why you see things like the Conner and Lacy bill.

So given that the baby is human, how can a person or organization decide whether that human deserves to live or not? That is the non religious answer.
 
UK Student.

Perhaps you could ask a series of un-answered questions on your site:

When does life begin?

If a fetus is not human, what species is it?

If a fetus is a parasite feeding off the mother and this is the reason it not considered human, then would it be okay to kill the baby after it is out of the womb, but before the umbilical cord is cut?

If the baby is not human, or not alive until after it has been born, then is the baby alive or human if the whole baby is out, but one toe is still inside the mother?

Is taking action to end a life the same as letting a life end by not taking action?

If a doctor takes an oath to do no harm, is taking action to end a life that would without that action continue to live, a violation of that oath?

An then perhaps you could give a bunch of “did you know?” statistics: Like mental problems, drug abuse, depression, physical health issues, etc that result from abortion.
 
Sorry I am infamous for skipping words, sometimes my thoughts are too fast for my hands. Thanks for any corrections. Everything I write, is usually proofread 30 minutes later.

The reason why I like the professor’s analogy is that it bring the law into a scenerio that a pro-choice person couldn’t imagine this occuring. It brings a lot of shock value. Of course any parent would save a child’s life. But what is abortion then to these otherwise pro-choice supporters if they are horrified by a parent not giving into a bone marrow transfusion and there is no law to force him or her to submit to one or any laws of consequences if he refuses.

I know it is a pro-abortion view point. The point to be made isn’t what is a human life, the law is about control over your own body. That is what legalizes abortion, not that we aren’t human inside the womb. I’m just tired of these “it isn’t a human being” arguments. It really is sad how it blinds the reality of the situation and blurs proper moral decision making.

If a mother is convinced that the child inside of them isn’t human, it makes it easier for her to abort. All she is told is that it is a “clump of cells”. Years later she keeps a pregnancy and then learns about the early stages of life or goes for her first ultrasound in the first trimester and is very troubled and suffers great about of pain and grief at what she had done in the past.
 
I hope this will help.The women who started planned parenthood was involved with a program called eugenics.Her name is Margerate Sanger(see blackgenocide.org).She studied the nazi doctrine and was involved with members of the kkk.The eugenics program was formed to prevent minority,poor people,people of questionable intelligience from breeding.The nazis and slave owners would have to first make their victoms seem less than human.In the case of the jews they were likened to sewer rats and other demeaning terms, in the case of slaves they were given pet names and their their"masters" had the right to do whatever they wanted to them including kill them.Now we have abortion you are no longer with child you are with fetus.The jewish people had their teeth used and skin for a commodities,the slaves were only useful when it was convienient.Now lets look at abortion, your mother has the right to kill you, your bodyparts can be sold for profit, you have been reduced to a term(fetus).Although, you can feel being ripped apart in the abortion precedure you have no rights you are at the mercy of another human, or idealogy that says you are a mere “choice”.If you want to do more research please contact me, I would love to let you see the agenda of the abortion movement.As far as the anti-muslim things you might have seen we are humans and Jesus died for all of us.The Pope does not degrade them, americans may have some hurts because of 9/11 and not know how to express them.The Catholic Church herself knows that Jesus desired all men be saved and we pray that all men come to the truth.God bless you and please contact me if you want to research this further,Lisa
 
I can add, from personal experience…by the time I found out I was pregnant (4 weeks), and had my first ob appt (6weeks) there was already a heart beat…detectable by internal ultrasound. If that is not indication of a life…I don’t know what is…and one does not need to be religious to see that (btw–I have had 5 babies, all of whom I saw heartbeats at that stage).
 
Here’s a scientific explanation for you:

An embryo is a life - that is a scientific fact. The moral question is when does that life have a soul?

There are two sides to the abortion issue:

Pro-Life and Pro-Choice.

The Pro-Life people are correct in stating that the Pro-Choice people are in reality Anti-Life because Pro-Choice people are in favor of destroying what has been scientifically been proven to be a living organism.

To me it’s obvious that Pro-Choice equals being in favor of terminating a living organism that is human. After all, fetus means little human in Greek.
 
Another important scientific fact is that abortion causes pain to the fetus. At 8 weeks the baby is able to feel pain due to the development of the thalamus. There is a former abortionist who made a video called “The Silent Scream.” It’s a video where you can see an unborn child screaming in pain. Imagine how it would feel if a sucktion device ripped off your limbs and other parts of your body until you were dead. Check out www.abortionfacts.com and click on “I am Pro-Life.” (That is where I got my information from.)
 
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Stylteralmaldo:
The Pro-Life people are correct in stating that the Pro-Choice people are in reality Anti-Life because Pro-Choice people are in favor of destroying what has been scientifically been proven to be a living organism.

.
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Karl Keating clarified Church teaching in his letter, that all living things have souls. Plants and animals have material souls that die, humans have souls that exist after material death. Is the embryo a plant or non-human?

“From Catholic theology we know that man, animals, and plants all have souls. Man’s soul is a spirit and therefore is immortal. The souls of animals and plants, as St. Thomas Aquinas noted, are material principles. They die when the animals and plants die.”
 
UK,

I’m sorry, I misread your post. I thought when you said that you didn’t want any scriptures from the "P"bible, I thought you meant the protestant bible. And since this is a catholic site, I thought you were asking about catholic scriptures. They are pretty much the same though. But our interpretations are often different.

Anyway, I could go into the genetics argument. But I won’t. I had studied genetics in college. And without a faith foundation, the argument that “a human’s personhood” life begins at conception can be ignored.

I do want to caution you about your reliance on your governments determination that the fetus is not a person. Sadly my own country (US) has done this as well. Not just in regard to abortion. But our ancestors denied personhood to blacks. And in more modern history we have Germany doing the same to Jews.

True these individuals were already born. Whereas the fetus is not yet. But if a government can deny personhood to blacks and Jews they can deny it to anyone.

When you reflect back on these periods in history, were these government declarations just? Of course not. It will probably be with the same disbelief that our grandchildren will have towards us when they judge us.

I don’t mean to be disrespectful. I only hope to give you another view to ponder as you reflect on this issue.

Mary
 
Thanks for all these replies, it has helped me understand the POV against abortion. I don’t wish to get involved in a large debate here, as (and I hope you don’t lose any respect for me here) I was brought up in what would be considered a liberal family, and we have many liberal friends, so my personal view is pro-choice. Or anti-life, although that is a more negative way of putting it.

The views here have very much represented the best arguements of the anti-abortion(Pro-life) movement, and I thank you for them. They have been very revealing for me, and I now understand that this is an arguement on which both sides of the arguement have such staunch views that neither will ever win over the other. The only thing that matters is who’s in power. And that, to me, although I realise there’s nothing to do about it, is depressing. To have one side of humanity completely and utterly opposed to the other over a single issue.

Also, I should probaby not have brought up the parasite comment, as it may have biased your answers against me. I apologise.

The anti-muslim thread, or what appeared to me (as it was the first thread I read on this site) as a very racist thread, was this one.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=15405
Posts such as this,
“All Muslims should be deported. We have so many now in our country and many of them are connected with terrorists cells as well. Someday one of these terrorists will set off a nuclear device in one of our cities. Why are we allowing MORE of these people into are country? Also muslims are permitted to practice their false religion on college campuses, while Christians are not. If we don’t do something soon, we will be at their mercy. God help us all.” - rarndt01
and
“They can be cool…so long as you don’t dare disagree with them or happen to be a Christian living in their countries. As long as they are a minority they are careful.” - cestusdei
really gave me a negative view of American Catholicism, although of course I realised not all Catholics are so bigoted. I believe people so racist to other religions or races should be excommunicated from their religion(no matter what it is).

Anyway, thanks again for the post, and I think I’ll stay around on this forum, as it is quite interesting.
 
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UKStudent:
The views here have very much represented the best arguements of the anti-abortion(Pro-life) movement, and I thank you for them. They have been very revealing for me, and I now understand that th** this is an arguement on which both sides of the arguement have such staunch views that** neither will ever win over the other. The only thing that matters is who’s in power
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I used to be pro-choice and am now staunchly pro-life. I know, and hear, about many people changing their minds from pro-abort to pro-life. I have yet to hear of anyone pro-life changing their minds and becoming pro-choice.
 
wisdom 3:5:
I used to be pro-choice and am now staunchly pro-life. I know, and hear, about many people changing their minds from pro-abort to pro-life. I have yet to hear of anyone pro-life changing their minds and becoming pro-choice.
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That is right.I am going to pray for UK,we all will,she is right that arguments and even scientific proof can not in themselves change your possition on this issue.There has to be a change of heart and a understanding that is given from a higher power that is God.The west has created a society that is based on the me first philosophy.Unfortunately, also the illusion that women have the right to kill their children.I personally know 4 women who have had abortions:one is now a pain pill addict;one is permiscuous and has bouts of depression every year around the time of the abortion;one has become an atheist and is very bitter and angry now;the other had another pregnancy and kept her baby and suffers from depression and despair.What kind of choices are we saying women have the right to make?I have not seen that it has been for a womens good and it certainly isn’t healthy for the baby.God Bless
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
That is right.I am going to pray for UK,we all will,she is right that arguments and even scientific proof can not in themselves change your possition on this issue.There has to be a change of heart and a understanding that is given from a higher power that is God.The west has created a society that is based on the me first philosophy.Unfortunately, also the illusion that women have the right to kill their children.I personally know 4 women who have had abortions:one is now a pain pill addict;one is permiscuous and has bouts of depression every year around the time of the abortion;one has become an atheist and is very bitter and angry now;the other had another pregnancy and kept her baby and suffers from depression and despair.What kind of choices are we saying women have the right to make?I have not seen that it has been for a womens good and it certainly isn’t healthy for the baby.God Bless
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BTW, I am a guy. Sorry for being picky, just a couple of people mentioned that. I’m just interested in the topic.
 
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UKStudent:
BTW, I am a guy. Sorry for being picky, just a couple of people mentioned that. I’m just interested in the topic.
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Seriously, get a copy of Peter Kreeft’s The Unaborted Socrates. It is exactly what you are looking for: An argument that is constructed soley from reason without appeals to Scripture.

Scott
 
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UKStudent:
The anti-muslim thread, or what appeared to me (as it was the first thread I read on this site) as a very racist thread, was this one.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=15405
Posts such as this,
“All Muslims should be deported. We have so many now in our country and many of them are connected with terrorists cells as well. Someday one of these terrorists will set off a nuclear device in one of our cities. Why are we allowing MORE of these people into are country? Also muslims are permitted to practice their false religion on college campuses, while Christians are not. If we don’t do something soon, we will be at their mercy. God help us all.” - rarndt01
and
“They can be cool…so long as you don’t dare disagree with them or happen to be a Christian living in their countries. As long as they are a minority they are careful.” - cestusdei
really gave me a negative view of American Catholicism, although of course I realised not all Catholics are so bigoted. I believe people so racist to other religions or races should be excommunicated from their religion(no matter what it is).
QUOTE]

Wow. I’m sorry you had to see that! MOST of us arent like that though. 😉
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Thou shalt not kill…that should be enough.

Think about the Dr.'s that could cure cancer, the religious, political, and moral leaders that are being murdered every day? Each visionary is very concerned about our western world of throw aways, we throw away food, clothes, and people. I know people whom have had abortions when they were very young, and regretted it the rest of their lives. It causes pain to all involved.
 
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UKStudent:
But the governmental view is that a foetus(at the stage where abortion is legal at least) is not yet a human being. At that stage it is a undeveloped parasitem, feeding off the mother.
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Would you consider it immoral to kill a baby that is outside it’s mother but has not been separated from the umbilical cord yet? Why or why not?

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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