About artificial humans

[Bagheera]

There are a few threads are going on about the question of the possibility of creating artificial humans. In this thread I would like to examine a specific aspect of this question. Humans have a whole lot of mental properties. One of them is stupidity. Another one is dishonesty – both intellectual and moral. Then there are mentally deficient (crazy) people. Some people believe in superstitions. (For the sake of avoiding derail attempts, I will (reluctantly!) exclude religion from the list.) People are capable of doublethink – holding two mutually contradictory views simultaneously and believing both of them – which is a mental disorder. And lots of other negative aspects are also included in the members of Homo sapiens. (Sapiens??? My big left toe. )

The point is that no one would purposefully implement these traits in some artificial beings, be they human imitations or not. We attempt to implement the positive traits, and we make some baby steps along the road, even though there is a very long way to go.

IBM’s Watson is able to analyze intentionally vague, sometimes even misleading clues and was able to beat the best of the Jeopardy champions. Chess programs can beat the human world champions. Medical diagnostic programs can make better evaluations than most doctors can. Face recognition programs can analyze thousands of faces in a crowd, and recognize one from a picture. And we barely scratched the surface of the possibilities. Of course these are not mutually exclusive traits, so it is possible to create one being, who has all of these abilities.

It looks like that we are going to be able to build some seriously “handicapped” artificial beings, which will have our “good traits”, but lack our negative ones. (If that would be considered a “handicap”.) It would not have the ability to cheat and lie, it would never be lazy or uncaring, it would be something that a “perfect” human would be. If you realize that this “handicap” is the result of the limitation (but not lack of) of “free will” you are on the right track.

That is an admirable aim to pursue. Why would anyone wish to build a creature with mental disorder? Or a con man? Or a serial killer?

 

[Paddy_Walker]

why would anyone want robots? That program in the robots hard-drive for making a perfect cup of coffee was actually written by an evil crazed sociopath programmer on one of his, or hers, more lucid days. It is just living a second-hand life.

 

[mikekle]

If you want a real scare, look into the dept of defense contests regarding ‘terminator’ like robots!! I saw a video of the winning companies robot and it is scary, this thing could walk on uneven surfaces, and do many other things as good, if not better than humans.

However currently, these types of robots are 100% under the programmers control and cannot operate unless attached to a computer or human controlled switch panel, but since technology progresses so fast, it wont be long before we have robots that can act on their own accord without any human involvement. I think we are heading in a direction where we will reach a point eventually and be forced to ask, why did we ever create such robots? but by then, it may be too late.

theverge.com/2013/7/11/4515788/darpa-unveils-6-foot-tall-humanoid-robot-atlas

 

[empther]

Quote from post 1:

There are a few threads are going on about the question of the possibility of creating artificial humans.

Yeah, and they’re all hot air.
It’s impossible to create artificial humans because humans have spiritual souls.
That takes care of this topic.

THE STANDARD ANSWER TO ALL ATHEIST CLAIMS;
The eminent English philosopher Edmund Burke wrote:

“The writers against religion, whilst they oppose every system, are wisely careful never to set up any of their own.” – A Vindication of Natural Society ( 1756 )

In other words, atheists have nothing to offer. Their system, if they bother to describe one, is easily torn apart for the error it is.

 

[dshix]

Yeah, and they’re all hot air.
It’s impossible to create artificial humans because humans have spiritual souls.
That takes care of this topic.

Yep.

The best that we could possibly create would be a sophisticated artificial intelligence; we could never attain the level of personality in a computer that a living soul and free will can provide.

Yet another attempt to play God.

 

[Usige]

It looks like that we are going to be able to build some seriously “handicapped” artificial beings, which will have our “good traits”, but lack our negative ones. (If that would be considered a “handicap”.) It would not have the ability to cheat and lie, it would never be lazy or uncaring, it would be something that a “perfect” human would be. If you realize that this “handicap” is the result of the limitation (but not lack of) of “free will” you are on the right track.

That is an admirable aim to pursue. Why would anyone wish to build a creature with mental disorder? Or a con man? Or a serial killer?

First, by your definition every human has a mental illness. Secondly just because humans can lie does not make every human a con man or serial killer. Aberrant behavior would likely creep into any artificial intelligence that is sophisticated enough to even remotely emulate a human.

To be honest removing those negative traits would not create a perfect human, but something not even remotely human. You mention that it could never be uncaring, but removing human flaws would lead to exactly that. Imagine a child that steals a loaf of bread because they are living on the street and starving. If the machine is programmed that stealing is a crime it would be incapable of compassion without the ability to hold contrary truths.

The ability to lie or hold contradictory ideas are some of the hallmarks of human cognition. It shows a level of abstration of thought which machines just can’t do. You remove things like that and a machine could never make leaps of intuition. Yes, computers can be programmed to do very specific things better than meat brains, but all of those things are based on concrete principles. Computers are great at analyzing huge reams of data and repetitive tasks. Starve them of data or ask them to do something completely outside what they are programmed for and they will freeze or run in a loop.

 

[inocente]

I love the responses from folk who two hundred years ago would claim flying machines are an unnatural abomination and no one will ever transmit messages through ye aether. Maybe people of faith and skeptics are the same, just seen from different angles.

Anyhow, on the OP: human traits developed because we can sense the world, we can move around, and we are social. If your artificial humans are the same, they’ll develop similar traits. Goes with the territory.

Thinking machines are on the cards, orderly utopias less so. Anyway, who wants to live in monochrome?

 

[Bagheera]

Paddy Walker:

why would anyone want robots? That program in the robots hard-drive for making a perfect cup of coffee was actually written by an evil crazed sociopath programmer on one of his, or hers, more lucid days. It is just living a second-hand life.

I have a surprise for you. We have such robots and they are employed by the military. Not the kind that some people imagine, the ones which are perfect killer machines. On the contrary, these are “mine-sniffing” robot dogs, which find mines and detonate them. The robots get injured (damaged) in the process, and when possible – repaired. When this repair is not possible any more (they die), their “comrades” perform a burial for them, since they develop a strong emotion (friendship?) for these “dogs” and are genuinely sorry for their loss. And this is not science fiction, this is reality.

Empther:

It’s impossible to create artificial humans because humans have spiritual souls.

Wouldn’t it be nice to have a coherent definition for that “spiritual soul”, and a method to discover them? Let me know when you can supply them.

dshix:

The best that we could possibly create would be a sophisticated artificial intelligence; we could never attain the level of personality in a computer that a living soul and free will can provide.

Do you have a definition for “intelligence” and “artificial intelligence”? And how to discover them?

Usige:

First, by your definition every human has a mental illness.

How come?

Usige:

To be honest removing those negative traits would not create a perfect human, but something not even remotely human.

How do you define what “human” is?

Usige:

Imagine a child that steals a loaf of bread because they are living on the street and starving. If the machine is programmed that stealing is a crime it would be incapable of compassion without the ability to hold contrary truths.

Only a “catholic” programmer would create a robot with such dogmatic view. Such programmer would see everything in “black or white”.

Usige:

The ability to lie or hold contradictory ideas are some of the hallmarks of human cognition.

They are? What evidence do you have for that? Holding contradictory ideas, and believing both of them at the same time is a mental disorder. And not everyone suffers from such disorders.

You guys managed to miss the whole point of this thread. My basic point was that people will not attempt to “emulate” a human being, with its undesirable attributes, because it simply makes no sense to create another specimen of this lousy “design”. Of course those beings which will be created will not be even remotely similar to the “real” humans. They will be much better.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

… makes no sense to create another specimen of this lousy “design”. Of course those beings which will be created will not be even remotely similar to the “real” humans. They will be much better.

…how can anything good come from a lousy design?

 

[Bagheera]

Paddy Walker:

…how can anything good come from a lousy design?

By incorrectly implementing that design.

Now, it is a bit frustrating that I spent time and effort to answer your previous post, and now I see that you simply ignored that answer. Of course you are under no obligation to reflect on anything, but I was hoping that my answer would show you that there are good, valid reasons (apart from “making a perfect cup of coffee”) why people would wish to implement certain kind of robots, and I would have appreciated a short reply to that.

 

[empther]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empther
It’s impossible to create artificial humans because humans have spiritual souls.

Wouldn’t it be nice to have a coherent definition for that “spiritual soul”, and a method to discover them? Let me know when you can supply them.

Shakespeare’s plays prove the existence of the soul.

St. Joan of Arc proves the existence of the soul.

The uniqueness of every human being, in contrast to animals who are all alike, proves the existence of the soul.

Artificial intelligence experiments of the last thirty years prove that artificial intelligence will never be anything more than computer programming for fixed tasks.

 

[GEddie]

If it is artificial, even if it has a head, hands, and feet, it is not human.

Human implies not only a human-form body but biological aliveness and the process of developing a mind through a “human life.”

Also, our science cannot replicate the human mind, when we still do not know how our heads do it.

ICXC NIKA

 

[dmar198]

If the brain was simple enough that we could understand it, we would be stupid enough that we couldn’t, because our ability to understand stuff would be that much poorer.

 

[edwest2]

There are a few threads are going on about the question of the possibility of creating artificial humans. In this thread I would like to examine a specific aspect of this question. Humans have a whole lot of mental properties. One of them is stupidity. Another one is dishonesty – both intellectual and moral. Then there are mentally deficient (crazy) people. Some people believe in superstitions. (For the sake of avoiding derail attempts, I will (reluctantly!) exclude religion from the list.) People are capable of doublethink – holding two mutually contradictory views simultaneously and believing both of them – which is a mental disorder. And lots of other negative aspects are also included in the members of Homo sapiens. (Sapiens??? My big left toe. )

The point is that no one would purposefully implement these traits in some artificial beings, be they human imitations or not. We attempt to implement the positive traits, and we make some baby steps along the road, even though there is a very long way to go.

IBM’s Watson is able to analyze intentionally vague, sometimes even misleading clues and was able to beat the best of the Jeopardy champions. Chess programs can beat the human world champions. Medical diagnostic programs can make better evaluations than most doctors can. Face recognition programs can analyze thousands of faces in a crowd, and recognize one from a picture. And we barely scratched the surface of the possibilities. Of course these are not mutually exclusive traits, so it is possible to create one being, who has all of these abilities.

It looks like that we are going to be able to build some seriously “handicapped” artificial beings, which will have our “good traits”, but lack our negative ones. (If that would be considered a “handicap”.) It would not have the ability to cheat and lie, it would never be lazy or uncaring, it would be something that a “perfect” human would be. If you realize that this “handicap” is the result of the limitation (but not lack of) of “free will” you are on the right track.

That is an admirable aim to pursue. Why would anyone wish to build a creature with mental disorder? Or a con man? Or a serial killer?

These devices would be under the control of the military as guards, combat troops and special operatives. The intelligence community would use them as spies, and program them to make human-like mistakes from time to time in public, to have fake handicaps, to lie, etc. In other words, they would be like the secret agents of today. They would be programmed to be con-men, and would cheat and lie to complete the mission. And, sadly, they may be programmed to kill.

Peace,
Ed

 

[tonyrey]

why would anyone want robots? That program in the robots hard-drive for making a perfect cup of coffee was actually written by an evil crazed sociopath programmer on one of his, or hers, more lucid days. It is just living a second-hand life.

“a mindless and heartless existence” sums it up.

 

[tonyrey]

You guys managed to miss the whole point of this thread. My basic point was that people will not attempt to “emulate” a human being, with its undesirable attributes, because it simply makes no sense to create another specimen of this lousy “design”. Of course those beings which will be created will not be even remotely similar to the “real” humans. They will be much better.

I wonder how a product of “lousy design” has succeeded in realising it is a product of"lousy design". It must be a freak with eugenicidal tendencies like Hitler!

 

[tonyrey]

These devices would be under the control of the military as guards, combat troops and special operatives. The intelligence community would use them as spies, and program them to make human-like mistakes from time to time in public, to have fake handicaps, to lie, etc. In other words, they would be like the secret agents of today. They would be programmed to be con-men, and would cheat and lie to complete the mission. And, sadly, they may be programmed to kill.
Peace,
Ed

I should have thought being programmed to kill is an eminently desirable virtue when one is surrounded on every side by products of “lousy design”. Mass destruction is obviously the only solution. What a pity Hitler didn’t finish the job!

 

[tonyrey]

If the brain was simple enough that we could understand it, we would be stupid enough that we couldn’t, because our ability to understand stuff would be that much poorer.

My dear fellow, you don’t understand that we are all products of “lousy design” but there is at least one exception to the rule!

 

[tonyrey]

Shakespeare’s plays prove the existence of the soul.

St. Joan of Arc proves the existence of the soul.

The uniqueness of every human being, in contrast to animals who are all alike, proves the existence of the soul.

Artificial intelligence experiments of the last thirty years prove that artificial intelligence will never be anything more than computer programming for fixed tasks.

I don’t think your points will have any effect on a biological machine without a soul…

 

[tonyrey]

First, by your definition every human has a mental illness. Secondly just because humans can lie does not make every human a con man or serial killer. Aberrant behavior would likely creep into any artificial intelligence that is sophisticated enough to even remotely emulate a human.

To be honest removing those negative traits would not create a perfect human, but something not even remotely human. You mention that it could never be uncaring, but removing human flaws would lead to exactly that. Imagine a child that steals a loaf of bread because they are living on the street and starving. If the machine is programmed that stealing is a crime it would be incapable of compassion without the ability to hold contrary truths.

The ability to lie or hold contradictory ideas are some of the hallmarks of human cognition. It shows a level of abstraction of thought which machines just can’t do. You remove things like that and a machine could never make leaps of intuition. Yes, computers can be programmed to do very specific things better than meat brains, but all of those things are based on concrete principles. Computers are great at analyzing huge reams of data and repetitive tasks. Starve them of data or ask them to do something completely outside what they are programmed for and they will freeze or run in a loop.

I reckon compassion must be an illusion in view of our congenital imperfection.