About gifted peoples and confession

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French_partner

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This thread is about somes peoples who are stamped by the name of “gifted”. I place it here, because in my view there is a problematic subject with them on the moral side.

you may contest, but some people have much more facilities on differant aspects, psychicaly, physicaly, intellectualy, these peoples have generaly much more sensitivity, are much more perceptives and aware, inquiring, assertives, receptives and are not pathologicals.

there are difference between human beings, some are less gifted, a lot are normaly gifted, and a few are much more gifted. Humility isn’t false modesty, humility is the thruth about oneself like about the others.

when such people enter in confesional chair, they have lot of to say, and may be will have the same answer, “you are scrupulous”. how to be confessed (and to confess these kind of peoples), without missing the point.

priests, bishops, cardinal are aware and take in consideration this reality everytimes ?
 
Being gifted in some way does not exclude the possibility that one is scrupulous.

Having a regular confessor would be the best way to handle it, because the confessor will know you better and your habitual sins. Even if the confessor is not gifted in the same way, does not mean that he wouldn’t have insight, through the grace of God, that you may have missed.

One thing I have noticed in reading about many of the saints (especially religious) is that they frequently submitted humbly to their superiors even when their superiors have been in the wrong, or told them they were delusional when they were not. It’s something to think about. (And maybe discuss with one’s regular confessor. :D)
 
True wisdom is knowing that you know nothing to paraphrase Socrates. What exactly does gifted mean anyway? Book smarts, street smarts? Smart, not so smart obviously everyone sins a lot everyday.
 
Scripture says “The righteous man sins seven times a day.”
I’m not really sure what is meant by the term “gifted” by the OP.
Each of us is gifted in different ways. Only mortal sins need to be confessed.
As one priest during a retreat, and another during a homily pointed out it unlikely that most of us who confess our sins on a regular basis actually commit mortal sins. Committing a mortal sin takes an active decision on our part to turn from God, to reject his grace.
That is not to say that we do not at times commit serious sins, but we do not consciously reject God.
That being said, the devotional confession to which a regular confession goer practices is meant to further his/her relationship with God.
There are individuals more gifted with awareness when it comes to their interior life than others. This charism and awareness improves with regular confession.
The confessor helps the individual in the process to differentiate between true sin and scruples. That is part of the priest’s charism given to him as part of the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
 
pensmama87 said:
Being gifted in some way does not exclude the possibility that one is scrupulous.

Having a regular confessor would be the best way to handle it, because the confessor will know you better and your habitual sins. Even if the confessor is not gifted in the same way, does not mean that he wouldn’t have insight, through the grace of God, that you may have missed.

One thing I have noticed in reading about many of the saints (especially religious) is that they frequently submitted humbly to their superiors even when their superiors have been in the wrong, or told them they were delusional when they were not. It’s something to think about. (And maybe discuss with one’s regular confessor. :D)
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I heard that, but my questioning is about confessor awareness about gifted people. Sure a saint and scholar confessor can take into consideration this problem, (that is not my particuliar problem) but there is some priests that are not scholar or saint if not the two.

with the Saint theresa the great between a pious priest and a scholar priest I choose the second without hesitation, because it’s my own and legitimate prerogative, there is not any question of superiors in that. I’m lay poeple. ( and if I was religious, that the same thing, if your confessor is not acurate for your case you must changing of confessor for the sake of the two. catholic obedience is not the same of secular obedience, catholicism is not an army, there is only like an army, analogy give more sense but is not in any manner an identity.)

knowing you are gifted is not pretentiousness. You don’t have to apologize if you have multiples skills.
“gifted” peoples have specific pattern in personnality, high IQ, high sensitivity, high resilience. specific thinking ( can think and act multiple tasks in same time) more than the average people ( there is some weaked intellectualy persons, a lot of average intellectualy gifted personns, and some much more gifted persons: that is not wacky or pretentious, it’s reality). I’m telling about this kind of people only here.

facing a person with much more intellectual driving a non advertised people, psychologist or priest may make an erroneous judgement and imagining that he have incounter a scrupoulous person or a perturbeted person, because this person is quick reasoning, with profound analysis, very informed and spontaneous in a way that is not common. (they represent 3% of the general population only), they are ignored, sometimes abused or jaleoused,

generaly this kind of people play roles (false selves) to preserve their equilibrium, and searchs agrements from estimated people, because they are easily in reciprocal and affectives relationships, in a non competitive or warrior way.( so if they are very competent, this is a chance for the others.)
more you are intelligent, better you like people, and more you can’t understand jaleousy. because everyone is interesting in a different way.

French revolution had propagate the strange myth of the obligatory equality between peoples. But it isn’t true, some people are more gifted than others, and in lieu of benefit of the fact, negation of disparities is spread all around.

a gifted peoples can be “scroupulous” less than other populations. they may think that they are finaly scroupulous" because same words, from another mouth can, for a non warned judge, indicate scruples. However vivid thinking and intensity, integrative capabilities are not the same, in the two cases; much more, the gifted may adopt false personality ( adopt scrupoulous patterns of personnality) because he understand so well that he isn’t understand or accepted as he is.

in an aristocratic (and politic) point of view, may be the analysis by some ecclessiastical peoples (that is not the same of The Church) of the personal valour had shifted for the revolutionary (flattering) false equality and a single particuliar relationship between a priest of this sort and a gifted penitent can’t resolve per se the problem.
 
I do not know if this qualifies some person I know as gifted but he has bachelor degrees in 2 opposite fields of science and a technical degree too, along with vast knowledge in sports and movies, he is scrupulous beyong what one could possibly imagine, he is living his entire life in fear, he is awkward in social situations, he constantly asks people for their opinions, when he sets his mind on a topic nothing can stop him, he is fighting his guilt along with his addictions, I think the more knowledge you have, the more difficult is your life.
What do you think?
 
I don’t exclude to have both gifted and scruples, by principle.

Some gifted people have also some problems, but per se, gifted is not pathological.
in the case you talk about, looking that from europe, I would say that some gifted people have incounter much more adversities than the average people, huge difference equal huge rejection. thus a gifted people may have strong need for reassurance. this is not scruples in catholic moral sense. more a scroupulous tendancy affecting caracter, but caracter is subject to working, improving as all real saints had done.

this person seem to have a need of real friends (and very good guidance), who have kindness, who accept difference, distances in some way, a real friend love the other for himself, without another goal or interest. thus this person will be able to achieve what he is missing on personal level: self confidence, a good perception of appreciation by others. don’t forget, gifted are very passionate peoples, capable of terrific concentration on one subject or the other, they are difficult to follow, thus be friend with yourself too, if he is your friend and you are not exactly like him, distance is necessity for the two. distance and kindliness, if he is gifted, his comprehension must do the job, he is capable of understanding your point of view and to respect you.

This is not a gifted problem per se, the “giftedness” with difficultuous parents or relationships had been only a occasion of wound and wound can recovering.

the problem is there is two sort of people who act roughly like a gifted, the gifted and perturbated peoples. perturbated people act like that to compensate, eludate another and profound problem, by neuroticism or psychosis (conversion syndrom, interpretative delirium etc). gifted are organised naturaly with lot of strenght, their intellect need to act, they like to know, acquire knowledge, have synaptic speed more accurate than average people, they feel much and much more, they think on multiple levels (arborescent thinking). it’s particuliar but not much than to be capable to outrip you on 100 meters race, by natural predisposition and work.
 
This doesn’t exactly answer the question.
I did have a discussion with a Nazarene minister once regarding faith and intellect. Scripture says that we are to have the faith of a child. This type of faith can be difficult for those of us who are educated and have been taught to be cynical and analytical.
His congregation, on the other hand, did have that simple childlike faith that God would provide for their needs that both he and I struggled with.
A highly intellectual person may indeed strive for answers where there are none while a person who is not “gifted” is satisfied with things as they are.
The scribes and pharisees who questioned our Lord during His ministry, often trying to trick Him or justify their actions were the intellectuals and educated individuals of the time. The priest in the confessional, although he stands in the place of Christ, is simply a man. He will not always have the answers or the ability to turn questions back on the person asking questions.
 
French_partner said:
This thread is about somes peoples who are stamped by the name of “gifted”. I place it here, because in my view there is a problematic subject with them on the moral side.

you may contest, but some people have much more facilities on differant aspects, psychicaly, physicaly, intellectualy, these peoples have generaly much more sensitivity, are much more perceptives and aware, inquiring, assertives, receptives and are not pathologicals.

there are difference between human beings, some are less gifted, a lot are normaly gifted, and a few are much more gifted. Humility isn’t false modesty, humility is the thruth about oneself like about the others.

when such people enter in confesional chair, they have lot of to say, and may be will have the same answer, “you are scrupulous”. how to be confessed (and to confess these kind of peoples), without missing the point.

priests, bishops, cardinal are aware and take in consideration this reality everytimes ?
Click to expand...
What I do not understand is what " gifted" has to do with " more to say" ?
I am thinking of a friend who is objectively gifted, and she keeps things quite average in " format" if you wish. She says what she has to say like most of us. That she is gifted does not show in that she has much more to say particularly.
But maybe I just cannot grasp the situation. Anyway,I am not a Confessor!🙂
 
graciew said:
What I do not understand is what " gifted" has to do with " more to say" ?
I am thinking of a friend who is objectively gifted, and she keeps things quite average in " format" if you wish. She says what she has to say like most of us. That she is gifted does not show in that she has much more to say particularly.
But maybe I just cannot grasp the situation. Anyway,I am not a Confessor!🙂
Click to expand...
I am not a Confessor either. I may go into the Confessional thinking I will be in there a long time and find that my time is very short. On the other hand, as has happened I may think that my time will be short and the priest hearing my confession will lead me in such a way that it will be much longer.
Intellectual giftedness has little to do with where one is on his/her spiritual walk with the Lord. We are all called to be open to how the Holy Spirit works in our own lives. If anything, as mentioned in my last post, because of education and training, the tendency to analyze and be critical can actually stand in the way of personal faith and the openness to childlike faith to be responsive to God’s grace working in our life. It is God’s grace that works within the Sacrament of Reconciliation to heal us of our sin. Can I accept God’s healing sanctifying grace in my life? The moment I confess and receive absolution I am restored.
If I am being overly scrupulous because of self-criticism, that is something to be discussed between my confessor and me.
I am hardly the most intellectually gifted or educated person that I know.
 
French_partner said:
I heard that, but my questioning is about confessor awareness about gifted people. Sure a saint and scholar confessor can take into consideration this problem, (that is not my particuliar problem) but there is some priests that are not scholar or saint if not the two.

with the Saint theresa the great between a pious priest and a scholar priest I choose the second without hesitation, because it’s my own and legitimate prerogative, there is not any question of superiors in that. I’m lay poeple. ( and if I was religious, that the same thing, if your confessor is not acurate for your case you must changing of confessor for the sake of the two. catholic obedience is not the same of secular obedience, catholicism is not an army, there is only like an army, analogy give more sense but is not in any manner an identity.)

knowing you are gifted is not pretentiousness. You don’t have to apologize if you have multiples skills.
“gifted” peoples have specific pattern in personnality, high IQ, high sensitivity, high resilience. specific thinking ( can think and act multiple tasks in same time) more than the average people ( there is some weaked intellectualy persons, a lot of average intellectualy gifted personns, and some much more gifted persons: that is not wacky or pretentious, it’s reality). I’m telling about this kind of people only here.

facing a person with much more intellectual driving a non advertised people, psychologist or priest may make an erroneous judgement and imagining that he have incounter a scrupoulous person or a perturbeted person, because this person is quick reasoning, with profound analysis, very informed and spontaneous in a way that is not common. (they represent 3% of the general population only), they are ignored, sometimes abused or jaleoused,

generaly this kind of people play roles (false selves) to preserve their equilibrium, and searchs agrements from estimated people, because they are easily in reciprocal and affectives relationships, in a non competitive or warrior way.( so if they are very competent, this is a chance for the others.)
more you are intelligent, better you like people, and more you can’t understand jaleousy. because everyone is interesting in a different way.

French revolution had propagate the strange myth of the obligatory equality between peoples. But it isn’t true, some people are more gifted than others, and in lieu of benefit of the fact, negation of disparities is spread all around.

a gifted peoples can be “scroupulous” less than other populations. they may think that they are finaly scroupulous" because same words, from another mouth can, for a non warned judge, indicate scruples. However vivid thinking and intensity, integrative capabilities are not the same, in the two cases; much more, the gifted may adopt false personality ( adopt scrupoulous patterns of personnality) because he understand so well that he isn’t understand or accepted as he is.

in an aristocratic (and politic) point of view, may be the analysis by some ecclessiastical peoples (that is not the same of The Church) of the personal valour had shifted for the revolutionary (flattering) false equality and a single particuliar relationship between a priest of this sort and a gifted penitent can’t resolve per se the problem.
Click to expand...
Can you say that in English and condense it into one sentence? What do you want?:o
 
On occasion it helps to define terms. A workable definition of scrupulosity is: “Scrupulosity is characterized by pathological guilt about moral or religious issues. It is personally distressing, objectively dysfunctional, and often accompanied by significant impairment in social functioning.[1][2] It is typically conceptualized as a moral or religious form of obsessive–compulsive disorder (OCD),[3] although this categorization is empirically disputable.[1]”

Without getting into a debate about the correlation between scrupulosity and OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder), suffice it to say that the two appear together in an individual sufficiently often that there appears to be a connection.

There are plenty of gifted people who are not OCD and not scrupulous. My own personal experience is that people with scrupulosity problems tend to be on the smarter end of the spectrum; but they are additionalyy people who suffer from OCD related issues, and that is not an insight into sinfulness; it is a mental/emotional problem.

“Treatment is similar to that for other forms of obsessive–compulsive disorder.[17] Exposure and response prevention (ERP), a form of behavior therapy, is widely used for OCD in general and may be promising for scrupulosity in particular.[1][18] ERP is based on the idea that deliberate repeated exposure to obsessional stimuli lessens anxiety, and that avoiding rituals lowers the urge to behave compulsively. For example, with ERP a person obsessed by blasphemous thoughts while reading the Bible would practice reading the Bible.[17][19] However, ERP is considerably harder to implement than with other disorders, because scrupulosity often involves spiritual issues that are not specific situations and objects. For example, ERP is not appropriate for a man obsessed by feelings that God has rejected and is punishing him. Cognitive therapy may be appropriate when ERP is not feasible.[1] Other therapy strategies include noting contradictions between the compulsive behaviors and moral or religious teachings, and informing individuals that for centuries religious figures have suggested strategies similar to ERP (see History).[17] Religious counseling may be an additional way to readjust beliefs associated with the disorder, though it may also stimulate greater anxiety.[1]”

Scrupulosity is not a greater insight into one’s own moral status (that is, “have I committed a sin”). It has been noted elsewhere in these threads that someone who is scrupulous has no problem identifying when they have committed a mortal sin. What they have problems with is the mental/emotional wrangling they engage in over matters which are not sinful, and which they do not have certainty; that is, they engage in obsessive behavior over non-sinful conduct. They may be smart (gifted) but they actually have a mental/emotional matter rather than a matter of gifted insight. To wit: they obsess because they do not have insight.

And it does not take a particularly gifted confessor to spot this if the penitent speaks.
 
An intellectually gifted person may have knowledge but not wisdom or insight while an person who is not seen as intellectual as the world understands it may be gifted with spiritual insight. This was indeed St. John Vianney’s charism.
 
Hi FrenchPartner,

I suppose it could be possible for a priest to mistake something for being scrupulous when it wasn’t.

Could you give an example of what the “gifted” person may say to the priest that could be mistaken for being scruples?

Your correct that objectively,not everyone has equal capabilities but that should never lead a person to feel superior.

When I went to church,i was also taught that those who have been blessed with a lot should help those who have little.
For example:if someone is gifted with money they can help the poor.If gifted with beauty they can help people who feel unattractive or insecure by helping with makeup or giving compliment etc,if they are gifted with great intelligence they might offer their time to help people with intellectual disabilities/learning difficulties etc…

Also as others mentioned,its possible to excel(be gifted) in one area and not an other.
One person might be gifted in hospitality and relationship /social skills but not at maths etc,another might be gifted at maths and science but have difficulties with social skills.

I don’t think the 'gifted" person (your words) should adopt a false scrupulous persona to fit in.
 
Elena321 said:
Hi FrenchPartner,

I suppose it could be possible for a priest to mistake something for being scrupulous when it wasn’t.

Could you give an example of what the “gifted” person may say to the priest that could be mistaken for being scruples?

Your correct that objectively,not everyone has equal capabilities but that should never lead a person to feel superior.

When I went to church,i was also taught that those who have been blessed with a lot should help those who have little.
For example:if someone is gifted with money they can help the poor.If gifted with beauty they can help people who feel unattractive or insecure by helping with makeup or giving compliment etc,if they are gifted with great intelligence they might offer their time to help people with intellectual disabilities/learning difficulties etc…

Also as others mentioned,its possible to excel(be gifted) in one area and not an other.
One person might be gifted in hospitality and relationship /social skills but not at maths etc,another might be gifted at maths and science but have difficulties with social skills.

I don’t think the 'gifted" person (your words) should adopt a false scrupulous persona to fit in.
Click to expand...
The only thing I can think of is a knowledge of scriptural passages taken out of context.

I have found knowledge of scripture helpful in discerning personal strengths and weakness and referenced scripture within the confessional. I have also had the priest direct me toward scriptural passages as guidance and/or part of my penance.

What we bring to the Sacrament of Reconciliation is our sins, and the temptations we may still be having in the path that God has set for us, if ours is a devotional confession. The only reason that I might give for my difficulty is not to excuse my sin, but to help the confessor as he guides me. The priest’s role in the confessional is healer. If I go to the doctor I give enough information to help with physical healing. I give the priest enough information to help me with my spiritual healing.
If I am understanding the OP, the intellectually gifted person may get so bogged down in the analytical explanation that he misses the healing.
The most important thing to do when going to the Sacrament of Reconciliation is to state your sins as succinctly as possible without getting caught up in minute details. Keep it simple. In other words, don’t be like a first year medical student who thinks he has every medical condition under the sun.
 
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