About God's Justice

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People often think that God is unjust because people go to hell. The logic is, I think, that since God knows their future, he somehow did less than he should have to keep the person from going to hell. Since we humans don’t really know very well either the limits of God’s mercy or what it is that makes a person go to destruction, why do people assume that God didn’t do all that he should? Perhaps, if a person doesn’t turn from hell with the level of knowledge and love that is given by God already, then that person wouldn’t be saved from hell if he stood face to face with Jesus.

Also, is it God’s goal to keep all people from hell? I think that this can not be true. We know that nothing is impossible for God from scripture. So God must allow people to go to hell. Is the problem, that some people don’t understand why people choose to go to hell and why God allows it?
 
Well, one might say he is an atheist today. But what did he say yesterday? What will he say next week? What difference does it make what you say you are today. It might hardly be any reflection of what you will believe forever. Unless the atheist is claiming to have closed his mind to the possibility of new data. Same goes for everyone I think.
 
Bahman said:
Apparently, by choosing to be a atheist.
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Yes, in order to be an atheist, you wake up the next day and decide to be an atheist for absoluetly no reason! Try it and let me know if it works with you.:rolleyes:
 
JamesATyler said:
Well, one might say he is an atheist today. But what did he say yesterday? What will he say next week? What difference does it make what you say you are today. It might hardly be any reflection of what you will believe forever. Unless the atheist is claiming to have closed his mind to the possibility of new data. Same goes for everyone I think.
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New data would open the possibility for the existence of god(s) but to open yourself to new datas about religion, you have to prove first the original datas and debunk every argument that disproves them, which is almost impossible to an atheist to become religious.
 
JamesATyler said:
People often think that God is unjust because people go to hell. The logic is, I think, that since God knows their future, he somehow did less than he should have to keep the person from going to hell. Since we humans don’t really know very well either the limits of God’s mercy or what it is that makes a person go to destruction, why do people assume that God didn’t do all that he should? Perhaps, if a person doesn’t turn from hell with the level of knowledge and love that is given by God already, then that person wouldn’t be saved from hell if he stood face to face with Jesus.

Also, is it God’s goal to keep all people from hell? I think that this can not be true. We know that nothing is impossible for God from scripture. So God must allow people to go to hell. Is the problem, that some people don’t understand why people choose to go to hell and why God allows it?
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A few things to remember: While the Church teaches that hell exists and is a real possibility for us, the Church does not claim with certainty that any human is actually there. This is in part because we do not know what happens at the moment of death, and there is always hope that, at that very last moment of life, the sinner’s eyes will be opened so that obstacles to repentance will be removed. Then we will make the right choice, at least that is the hope many of us hold.

1 Timothy 2:4 "God… wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth"

If this passage of Scripture is true, and I believe it is, then God must surely provide us every opportunity to make it so.
 
LibralAteoJesus said:
New data would open the possibility for the existence of god(s) but to open yourself to new datas about religion, you have to prove first the original datas and debunk every argument that disproves them, which is almost impossible to an atheist to become religious.
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It happens all the time doesn’t it? Is this explained by lowering their intellectual credibility?
 
LibralAteoJesus said:
Yes, in order to be an atheist, you wake up the next day and decide to be an atheist for absoluetly no reason! Try it and let me know if it works with you.:rolleyes:
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I don’t decide on whatever, I however follow reasoning, wherever it may go. That is why I don’t call myself a atheist, theist, etc.
 
God love us all, no matter what we are and to what Church we may belong. God want to save us all. God do know the future, but He gave us free will, so Hell is our choice, not Gods. If you repent from all your heart and soul the last second you live, God will forgive you. There must be a point “of no return” but God have made sure it is as far away as possible so that we can join Him in Heaven. And He do all He can to keep us safe, and if that is not justice, what is justice? Or as Pontius Pilate did say: “what is the truth”. Well, God is the Truth, and that is all we need. If we love Him we will not hurt Him. God give more then He want, and that is justice as well.
 
LibralAteoJesus said:
Are you open to becoming a muslim, hindu or pagan…?
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Not at this time. But if Mohammed, Brahman, or the Easter Bunny comes down out of the sky I might be tempted to convert. If they can prove Jesus Christ isn’t the Son of God, of course.
 
JamesATyler said:
Not at this time. But if Mohammed, Brahman, or the Easter Bunny comes down out of the sky I might be tempted to convert. If they can prove Jesus Christ isn’t the Son of God, of course.
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Then, you refuse to believe in them without seeing them, out of curiosity, what makes Jesus so special, ever seen him?
You are a disbeliever in the other thousands of religions and gods, I’m a disbeliever in them including Christianity, we agree on that point, don’t we? Except that I don’t consider that in order for something to exist, it must be seen to our eyes.
 
LibralAteoJesus said:
Are you open to becoming a muslim, hindu or pagan…?
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I have tried some and what I realized, was that belief is ok as far as it doesn’t close the door of reasoning. Nevertheless, believing in reasoning is a belief itself, so we have to be open to everything. The problem is that reasoning is like a knife for cutting a subject matter into pieces, we then need collective thinking to comprehend the whole subject, whether this point of view works for all subjects is subject of debate. For example, when it comes to human, and beings in general, the issue become a little complicated since we try to understand ourselves by imposing ourselves to different subjective matters and see which one suit us better. Apparently, no one knows the best suit and we probably never know.
 
There is a difference between knowing and controlling. Just because a pollster knows how you are likely to vote does not mean he has forced you to vote in that way. Life is a journey, or as St. Paul says “a race”. We either walk towards god or away from him; because god has allowed us freedom he cannot force our choice. The great mystery for me is the why of creation.
 
JamesATyler said:
People often think that God is unjust because people go to hell. The logic is, I think, that since God knows their future, he somehow did less than he should have to keep the person from going to hell. Since we humans don’t really know very well either the limits of God’s mercy or what it is that makes a person go to destruction, why do people assume that God didn’t do all that he should? Perhaps, if a person doesn’t turn from hell with the level of knowledge and love that is given by God already, then that person wouldn’t be saved from hell if he stood face to face with Jesus.

Also, is it God’s goal to keep all people from hell? I think that this can not be true. We know that nothing is impossible for God from scripture. So God must allow people to go to hell. Is the problem, that some people don’t understand why people choose to go to hell and why God allows it?
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God values our freedom, our freedom to choose the Good, alone, over evil, very,very highly. Our free will could be defined as the freedom to oppose His will. He either gives us that freedom, along with grace, expecting us to come to freely do the best we can with what we’re given, with the option of refusing the proposition, or we don’t really don’t have free will at all.
 
Origen52 said:
There is a difference between knowing and controlling. Just because a pollster knows how you are likely to vote does not mean he has forced you to vote in that way. Life is a journey, or as St. Paul says “a race”. We either walk towards god or away from him; because god has allowed us freedom he cannot force our choice. The great mystery for me is the why of creation.
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Such as why he creates someone He already knows will reject Him and possibly cause others to do the same?

One of the apparent contradictions that led me to deism. …the notion that a god force created the initial universe and then backed away or had no further ability to control events. For me, this viewpoint fits better with the world that we see today and the evidence that we have of the past…both human and non-human.
 
oldcelt said:
Such as why he creates someone He already knows will reject Him and possibly cause others to do the same?

One of the apparent contradictions that led me to deism. …the notion that a god force created the initial universe and then backed away or had no further ability to control events. For me, this viewpoint fits better with the world that we see today and the evidence that we have of the past…both human and non-human.
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What’s a god-force? Sounds like a god that might just be dumber than a human. God can’t help but know the future. Does that fact, by itself, mean He’s incapable of creating beings with free wills? Or that He has no right to create beings with radically free wills, to choose for themselves whether they’ll pursue the good, or embrace the evil we all experience in this life? Would such a world-with all it’s resulting pain and suffering- be worth the effort of creating? I believe this life, and the God who is said to have created it, is good-especially if the promise of it transitioning into an even greater-much greater-future, is valid.
 
Origen52 said:
There is a difference between knowing and controlling. Just because a pollster knows how you are likely to vote does not mean he has forced you to vote in that way. Life is a journey, or as St. Paul says “a race”. We either walk towards god or away from him; because god has allowed us freedom he cannot force our choice. The great mystery for me is the why of creation.
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But can God not make the place we walk away from him to any better than fiery torment?
 
Sparkythedog said:
But can God not make the place we walk away from him to any better than fiery torment?
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We don’t know if terms like those reflect reality or are metaphorical. The chief consequence-and suffering-of walking away from God is to be, well, away from God, the very source of life, goodness and love. To do so is to adamantly oppose those things in favor of self: in favor of cold, selfish, pride.
 
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