About God's Morality...How would you reply to this?

[SpeakKindly]

I’m in a discussion with someone and the topic of slavery came up, and they were asking if it is immoral (he was implying that God condoned,supported,agree, etc, with slavery in the Bible).

In response to someone else’s statement, I brought up the fact that divorce was allowed by God and regulated by God, but that does not mean he believed it to be morally good.

A reply to this was that they believe he does accept it as morally good, and used James 4:17 to back up this claim.

17 “Anyone, then, who knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, commits sin.” (James 4:17)

Their claim is that God knew that it was the right thing to completely outlaw slavery, but He chose not to, so God either approves of it, or He sinned.

It’s not that I agree with this, or feel it may be right, but I’m not sure how I can prove this wrong.

Any suggestions on a good response to this ?

Thanks in advance!

 

[snarflemike]

I think you need to go right to the heart of the matter in these discussions. Don’t discuss whether OT slavery or stoning or killing of enemies was OK. Discuss why ANYTHING is OK. If there is a standard, what is it, and why would it be binding on peoples 3000 years ago?

Another aspect of these discussions is to force the focus on the seeming differences between the OT God and the NT God. Since God doesn’t change, they are the same God, and the NT God is the fullest revelation of God, thus the “real” God. So why the different standards from OT to NT?

 

[kra130]

I would suggest looking over Ex 21 it outlines some of the rules for slaves in the OT. It is important to understand that slaves in the OT were not treated as poorly as African slaves in America. Having slaves is not morally wrong, beating them is, but owning one is not.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Their claim is that God knew that it was the right thing to completely outlaw slavery, but He chose not to, so God either approves of it, or He sinned.

One of the arguments I’ve often seen to try and refute that is how God won’t interfere as he wants to give man freewill. There are two problems with that. One is how it’s supposed to imply that God is absolutely silent on whether slaveowning is wrong. Two is how God will often intercede (sometimes violently) against much milder acts. Take how God came thisclose to killing Moses because his son wasn’t baptised. It would be like a cop ignoring a rampaging mob to write a ticket for a litterbug.

I would suggest looking over Ex 21 it outlines some of the rules for slaves in the OT.

Every single time (not just on CAF, but anywhere) that there is a discussion regarding slavery in the bible, its defenders will both ignore that the rules are only for male Hebrew slaves and that some of those rules are pretty vile.

Having slaves is not morally wrong, beating them is, but owning one is not.

No. Owning another human being is wrong – unconditionally wrong. Besides that, the rules you mentioned are more than amicable to a slaveowner beating a slave, so long as it doesn’t lose a tooth or an eye or die the same day it was beaten. Slaves that die the next day as a result of beatings are well within biblically prescribed rules.

 

[Regina_Love]

If one could not pay off their debt, they could be imprisoned until the full amount was paid. Now the family would loose the income of the husband, and he might well starve as they didn’t feed prisoners, and since they couldn’t repay the debt with the man working full time, how would they pay it with out his income! Often He died in prison. The slavery option was a step up from this in that you would be earning your way out of debt. The Jubilee year forgave all debt and the slaves were set free in less than a decade.

The New Testament talks about all the Baptized are brothers in Christ whether slave or free, male or female. They are all equal in dignity, and love of God. God also gave the “New Commandment” That we are to love each other as he loved us! In God’s eyes there are things worse than slavery, such as the loss of Salvation in Christ.

When a person arrogantly judges God as incompetent, judges God’s actions as wrong!, then they reject God! They are saying they are wiser than God. They are saying that they know better than God what is morally good or bad. satan made the same mistake, and they are headed down the same path of pride which leads straight to Hell.

We do much better to say, “God, I don’t understand this! Help me Lord!” God will answer that prayer.

 

[RedFox0456]

This is synonymous with why God allows evil in the world. The simple fact is that He allows free will. Personally, I find it ironic that men commit evil and then turn around and blame God for it.

 

[SpeakKindly]

If one could not pay off their debt, they could be imprisioned until the full amount was paid. Now the family would loose the income of the husband, and he might well starve as they didn’t feed prisioners, and since they couldn’t repay the debt with the man working full time, how would they pay it with out his income! Often He died in prison. The slavery option was a step up from this in that you would be earning your way out of debt. The Jubilee year forgave all debt and the slaves were set free.

The New Testament talks about all the Baptized are brothers in Christ whether slave or free, male or female. They are all equal in dignity, and love of God. God also gave the “New Commandment” That we are to love each other as he loved us! In God’s eyes there are things worse than slavery, such as the lose of Salvation in Christ.

When a person arrogantly judges God as incompetent, judges God’s actions as wrong!, then they reject God! They are saying they are wiser than God. They are saying that they know better than God what is morally good or bad. satan made the same mistake, and they are headed down the same path of pride which leads straight to Hell.

We do much better to say God, I don’t understand this! Help me Lord! God will answer that prayer.

This is a frustrating question, and it’s bugging me because I don’t know how to answer it.

I’ve come to understand that God’s allowance for evil, and regulating (but not outlawing) some of it was a way to help the people eventually come to know Him slowly through time, otherwise they’d have issues due to their hard-hearts.

However, this question attacks the issue by saying that God knew slavery, divorce, etc is evil, so why didn’t He outlaw it all, and asks how is it not sin to allow it, let alone command it ?

“44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.” (Leviticus 25:44)

I don’t believe God can sin, and the Catholic Church condemns the selling, purchasing, and trading of slaves for most (pretty much all) reasons in the Catechism.

“2414 The seventh commandment forbids acts or enterprises that for any reason - selfish or ideological, commercial, or totalitarian - lead to the enslavement of human beings, to their being bought, sold and exchanged like merchandise, in disregard for their personal dignity.” (Catechism)

Is there a way this situation with slavery and God allowing it is being misunderstood by me or others ?

 

[Regina_Love]

This is a frustrating question, and it’s bugging me because I don’t know how to answer it.

I’ve come to understand that God’s allowance for evil, and regulating (but not outlawing) some of it was a way to help the people eventually come to know Him slowly through time, otherwise they’d have issues due to their hard-hearts.

However, this question attacks the issue by saying that God knew slavery, divorce, etc is evil, so why didn’t He outlaw it all, and asks how is it not sin to allow it, let alone command it ?

“44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.” (Leviticus 25:44)

I don’t believe God can sin, and the Catholic Church condemns the selling, purchasing, and trading of slaves for most (pretty much all) reasons in the Catechism.

“2414 The seventh commandment forbids acts or enterprises that for any reason - selfish or ideological, commercial, or totalitarian - lead to the enslavement of human beings, to their being bought, sold and exchanged like merchandise, in disregard for their personal dignity.” (Catechism)

Is there a way this situation with slavery and God allowing it is being misunderstood by me or others ?

It sounds like people willingly entered into slavery by choosing to accrue steep debt, and that their debt/slave could be bought and sold. Perhaps God sees them as volunteering for the consequence of Slavery. After all we are all slaves! Either to God, who died for our sins, (and purchased us by his blood) or to satan who desires to destroy us! Only God will set us free!

 

[Iron_Donkey]

This is a frustrating question, and it’s bugging me because I don’t know how to answer it.

**I’ve come to understand that God’s allowance for evil, and regulating (but not outlawing) some of it was a way to help the people eventually come to know Him slowly through time, otherwise they’d have issues due to their hard-hearts.

However, this question attacks the issue by saying that God knew slavery, divorce, etc is evil, so why didn’t He outlaw it all, and asks how is it not sin to allow it, let alone command it ? **

“44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.” (Leviticus 25:44)

I don’t believe God can sin, and the Catholic Church condemns the selling, purchasing, and trading of slaves for most (pretty much all) reasons in the Catechism.

“2414 The seventh commandment forbids acts or enterprises that for any reason - selfish or ideological, commercial, or totalitarian - lead to the enslavement of human beings, to their being bought, sold and exchanged like merchandise, in disregard for their personal dignity.” (Catechism)

Is there a way this situation with slavery and God allowing it is being misunderstood by me or others ?

The Israelites of of this time were pretty standard people in a pretty brutal world. As you say, God set standards and began to raise them to bring them to Himself. We could ask why He didn’t set the standards perfectly to begin with, but it seems that you answered that question yourself: God saw a brutal world, and rather than simply overriding it completely, He made rules to bring people into willing cooperation. Small increases in restrictions are easy to bear, but if He had simply said “you must stop all of this or perish,” He could have gotten cooperation, but it would, ironically, been the cooperation of slaves.

Of course, you can play balancing mind games: would it have worked out better if He had done X instead of Y, maybe there would have been some ill effects here, but over there it’d be better, etc. All we can say to that is that God would be able to better at all those kinds of games than we’d ever be, and so we should trust that He does what is best.

–

Also, consider that we live in a developing universe, so when we think things like this, we are implicitly setting ourselves as the standard, rather than God. That is, we are essentially saying that our moral views are perfect, and should have been where God started. Put it like this: if you’re counting towards infinity, you can start at 1 or you can start at a million, but you have to start somewhere and no matter where you do, we can look back a million numbers later and say “I should have just started here.”

We forget that in a couple thousand years, people could very easily look back and say “how could God possibly have allowed X that they did in the old USA? We’re so much better now, why didn’t He just give the world the understanding of His will that we have?”

 

[SpeakKindly]

The Israelites of of this time were pretty standard people in a pretty brutal world. As you say, God set standards and began to raise them to bring them to Himself. We could ask why He didn’t set the standards perfectly to begin with, but it seems that you answered that question yourself: God saw a brutal world, and rather than simply overriding it completely, He made rules to bring people into willing cooperation. Small increases in restrictions are easy to bear, but if He had simply said “you must stop all of this or perish,” He could have gotten cooperation, but it would, ironically, been the cooperation of slaves.

Of course, you can play balancing mind games: would it have worked out better if He had done X instead of Y, maybe there would have been some ill effects here, but over there it’d be better, etc. All we can say to that is that God would be able to better at all those kinds of games than we’d ever be, and so we should trust that He does what is best.

–

Also, consider that we live in a developing universe, so when we think things like this, we are implicitly setting ourselves as the standard, rather than God. That is, we are essentially saying that our moral views are perfect, and should have been where God started. Put it like this: if you’re counting towards infinity, you can start at 1 or you can start at a million, but you have to start somewhere and no matter where you do, we can look back a million numbers later and say “I should have just started here.”

We forget that in a couple thousand years, people could very easily look back and say “how could God possibly have allowed X that they did in the old USA? We’re so much better now, why didn’t He just give the world the understanding of His will that we have?”

I agree with all of this pretty much. I believe God allowed slavery temporarily because He works in small steps a lot of times.

However, why does the Catechism say it’s wrong to buy, sell, or trade slaves, but God told the Israelites to buy them from other nations ? That’s the main issue I’m having trouble answering.

If God knew this was inherently bad, then how could He command an inherently bad system ? He can’t command sin.

I can accept that slavery is not inherently bad, but the buying, trading, and selling of people is something the Catechism seems very much against. How do we reconcile this seeming contradiction ?

 

[eva77]

One question always comes to my mind,whenever an issue like this is being argued.
"why did God create Adam and then Eve,knowing fully well that they would commit sin,and pretty much mess up everything He had designed so well.’’
‘‘why did God even create lucifer much less let him live eve after the disobedience saga?’’
‘‘why did God give us this beautiful planet and stand by watching,while we muck up everything and rub it all i His face?’’

I realised that I didn’t have any answer to these questions, He is the Creator,He can pretty much do whatever He wants, i can do nothing but strive to be on His good side.

 

[SpeakKindly]

One question always comes to my mind,whenever an issue like this is being argued.
"why did God create Adam and then Eve,knowing fully well that they would commit sin,and pretty much mess up everything He had designed so well.’’
‘‘why did God even create lucifer much less let him live eve after the disobedience saga?’’
‘‘why did God give us this beautiful planet and stand by watching,while we muck up everything and rub it all i His face?’’

I realised that I didn’t have any answer to these questions, He is the Creator,He can pretty much do whatever He wants, i can do nothing but strive to be on His good side.

Yes, but I’m confused as how the Catechism seems to conflict with God’s actions ?

 

[Rosella]

My feeling is somebody that nuts is not worth arguing with. The only words I’d have for them are, “Have a nice day, and God bless you! Bye!”

 

[SpeakKindly]

My feeling is somebody that nuts is not worth arguing with. The only words I’d have for them are, “Have a nice day, and God bless you! Bye!”

Any reason why it seems that God’s telling the Israelites to buy slaves from other nations goes against the Catechism on the issue of buying,selling, or trading slaves ?

Is there something I’m missing ? This is starting to concern me because I can’t find an answer to this that seems complete.

 

[mhmtas]

QUOTE=SpeakKindly;

God is same God and canons of God do not change. God does not accept slavery so God claims to abate slavery. But so ingrained issue in the society couldn’t be picked off f easily because. So God incentive human to affranchise slavery. And who affranchise a slavery get good deed. I do not know how exactly Bible explain but I think Bible had been corrupted partially. İf there were entirely correct form of Bible we would see that God does not allow slavery.

 

[thenobes]

Maybe God wanted hem to convert to Judaism.

“44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.” (Leviticus 25:44

Would things go much better for them if they converted (ie, became Israelites?)

peace
steve

 

[georget]

It seems to me this question isn’t going to get answered here on anywhere else.It will always be conjecture. Its a mystery. You will find your answers in heaven, if you choose not to go that route you won’t find your answer at all. You can let it drive you crazy, or lose your faith (and try to get others to lose theirs as well), or trust in God’s providence and work to fight against slavery in our world today.

 

[mhmtas]

God embolden to buy slaveries but for what? Ofcourse to affranchise them and so get good deed who affranchise slavery. Because God ordered prophet Mohammed do so.

 

[JRKH]

I agree with all of this pretty much. I believe God allowed slavery temporarily because He works in small steps a lot of times.

However, why does the Catechism say it’s wrong to buy, sell, or trade slaves, but God told the Israelites to buy them from other nations ? That’s the main issue I’m having trouble answering.

If God knew this was inherently bad, then how could He command an inherently bad system ? He can’t command sin.

I can accept that slavery is not inherently bad, but the buying, trading, and selling of people is something the Catechism seems very much against. How do we reconcile this seeming contradiction ?

There are many layers to this matter that are often not readily apparent.
First - the institution of “slavery” has varied quite a bit over the many centuries and cultures. It was quite often a very different thing from what we think of today when we hear the word “slave”. So - just what was being condoned by God in both the OT and NT may be something very different from what we think of today.

Second - under the new covenant - no person who is Christian is a slave regardless of their physical, social, economic or legal status. A person in servitude was and is just as free, in the kingdom of God, as the one who “owns” that person.
And the person who “owns” the servant is just as much in bondage (to the world) as the one who is owned.
As an example of this latter…consider the conundrum of some of the American Founding Fathers like Thomas Jefferson who recognized the inherent and internal conflict of writing and fighting for liberty while they themselves held slaves…Yet they found themselves unable to disentangle themselves from this internal conflict.
The main reason for this has to do with - like the rich young man - they were too tied to their possessions and that included their slaves.
But who was more “free”…The owner who can’t get along without the slave - or the slave who could get along quite nicely without the owner?

Third - As God is a good and patient Father - he has gradually brought us along teaching us to the degree we have been able to learn and yet always challenging us to do more - to be more - and to Love more.

Given time I could probably come up with other points on this matter…but suffice it to say for now that this is a not a subject that is easily disposed of in most conversations - primarily due to the difficulty in getting people to see things from the viewpoint of the Kingdom of God.

Peace
James

 

[SpeakKindly]

There are many layers to this matter that are often not readily apparent.
First - the institution of “slavery” has varied quite a bit over the many centuries and cultures. It was quite often a very different thing from what we think of today when we hear the word “slave”. So - just what was being condoned by God in both the OT and NT may be something very different from what we think of today.

Second - under the new covenant - no person who is Christian is a slave regardless of their physical, social, economic or legal status. A person in servitude was and is just as free, in the kingdom of God, as the one who “owns” that person.
And the person who “owns” the servant is just as much in bondage (to the world) as the one who is owned.
As an example of this latter…consider the conundrum of some of the American Founding Fathers like Thomas Jefferson who recognized the inherent and internal conflict of writing and fighting for liberty while they themselves held slaves…Yet they found themselves unable to disentangle themselves from this internal conflict.
The main reason for this has to do with - like the rich young man - they were too tied to their possessions and that included their slaves.
But who was more “free”…The owner who can’t get along without the slave - or the slave who could get along quite nicely without the owner?

Third - As God is a good and patient Father - he has gradually brought us along teaching us to the degree we have been able to learn and yet always challenging us to do more - to be more - and to Love more.

Given time I could probably come up with other points on this matter…but suffice it to say for now that this is a not a subject that is easily disposed of in most conversations - primarily due to the difficulty in getting people to see things from the viewpoint of the Kingdom of God.

Peace
James

I see what you’re saying. Thank you.

So, would you share your view on why the Catechism says buying, selling, and trading slavery is immoral, but God instructed/regulated it for a time ?

The person who originally asked this question claimed that God either accepts slavery as good, or He has sinned, and used the following verse to back this view up.

“17 Anyone, then, who knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, commits sin.” (James 4:17)

I’m not saying God sinned, and I don’t believe He did or can, but for my own peace of mind I’d like to understand how we can accept that buying slaves is wrong, but God commanded it, and He doesn’t and won’t command a sin.