About hell And God's infinite mercy

[Questioner28]

If God knew that in his creation there would be those who would willingly choose eternal pain wouldn’t he have refrained feom creating us out of infinite mercy ? And why isn’t hell just temporary like when a child misbehaves it is only given a temporary punishment and then released

 

[Rogare]

I anxiously await Roman Catholic responses to this question. In the meantime, however, how about a Reformed response?

We are all born sinful. From day one, we are rebelling against God; we spend each day breaking His commands and blaspheming His name. For references, check out Eph. 2:1, Romans 8:7, Romans 3:10-12.

Since the natural man is sinful and rebels against God, God must take action. Here’s where the rubber meets the road. A lot of people want to separate God’s attributes and define Him based on one or the other; you’ve done this by highlighting God’s infinite mercy. However, you are forgetting some things. God is infinitely holy: He cannot tolerate sin. God is infinitely righteous: He must do that which is consistent with His standards. God is infinitely just: He must exercise perfect justice on creation. You cannot forget about His holiness, righteousness, and justness.

Here’s an example. Say you walked in on somebody murdering your family. As you walk in, you catch the killer strangling your last family member. You manage to subdue him until the police arrive. The evidence is incontrovertible. The DNA tests, your eyewitness testimony, even that of two of your neighbors, is used in court. After days of hearings, the judge is ready to hand down the sentence for this awful crime. Imagine the judge says: “Well, it looks to me like you murdered that family, but I don’t think you deserve to be punished. I will let you off the hook, just behave better in the future.”

How would you react? Would you consider this to be a just, righteous judge? Of course not. You would be calling every judge, police man, congressman, etc. that you could get in contact with! This would be the most corrupt, unjust judge on Earth!

God is no different. Imagine if I made a DVD of every thought you’ve had this week. Imagine I played that DVD in front of your friends and family. Do you think they would still want anything to do with you? Of course not; and you’d be headed as far away from them as possible out of shame. God sees all this. He’s aware of every sinful thought and action you do.

With all this evidence against you, why would you expect God to act unjustly? That would make God the Devil if He were to do that. Every last human born deserves eternal damnation for violating God’s holy law. You have sinned against an infinite God; you deserve infinite punishment. Also, just because a sinner goes to hell does not mean he will immediately repent and beg God for forgiveness. Based on the depravity of man, he will still hate God just as much when he’s screaming blasphemies at God from the gates of hell.

So why is anyone saved at all? Well, Paul has an answer:

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And** he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure**, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. (Ephesians 1:3-10)

Out of His love, He chose a portion of mankind (the elect) to inherit salvation. We were chosen by God out of His love and good pleasure. God saves us because Christ took the punishment for our sin on the cross and satisfied God’s wrath for the elect. Therefore, God can still be just by forgiving us since Christ took our place on the cross. Sin gets punished, God is still just, we get Heaven. What good news!

So let’s recap. We all deserve hell. God must punish sin to be just. God loves the elect and chose them for salvation. This love was exercised through Christ.

So why do some people go to hell? For the glory of God. God does nothing that doesn’t glorify God. He exercises His infinite and perfect love and mercy on the elect; He exercises His infinite and perfect wrath, justness, and holiness on the reprobate. Paul says as much in Romans 9:

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— (Romans 9:20-23)

Hope that answers your question!

 

[DavidFilmer]

If God knew that in his creation there would be those who would willingly choose eternal pain wouldn’t he have refrained feom creating us out of infinite mercy?

Because God’s infinite mercy is equal to his infinite justice. Purgatory reflects God’s mercy, whereas hell reflects God’s justice.

And why isn’t hell just temporary like when a child misbehaves it is only given a temporary punishment and then released

Hell is not a punishment. It is a freewill decision that we make. Those in hell do not WANT to be in heaven.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And hell is not temporary because the SIN is not temporary.

If you are in mortal sin, and you die with that sin without repenting, does the sin STOP? Of course it doesn’t. IOW, if you die in sin, you are continuing that mortal, deadly sin, for ETERNITY, because you do not repent!

It is unfortunate that an imperfect view of hell as ‘punishment alone’ has crept in to most people’s thinking. In the sense that justice demands that sin be ‘dealt with’, hell could be thought ‘punishment’, but it is not something imposed on an unwilling ‘victim’.

Hell is the FREE CHOICE of the sinner, even though Heaven would be his if he repented his sin. . .but He. Will. Not. Repent.

 

[cargau]

I anxiously await Roman Catholic responses to this question. In the meantime, however, how about a Reformed response?

We are all born sinful. From day one, we are rebelling against God; we spend each day breaking His commands and blaspheming His name. For references, check out Eph. 2:1, Romans 8:7, Romans 3:10-12.

Since the natural man is sinful and rebels against God, God must take action. Here’s where the rubber meets the road. A lot of people want to separate God’s attributes and define Him based on one or the other; you’ve done this by highlighting God’s infinite mercy. However, you are forgetting some things. God is infinitely holy: He cannot tolerate sin. God is infinitely righteous: He must do that which is consistent with His standards. God is infinitely just: He must exercise perfect justice on creation. You cannot forget about His holiness, righteousness, and justness.

Here’s an example. Say you walked in on somebody murdering your family. As you walk in, you catch the killer strangling your last family member. You manage to subdue him until the police arrive. The evidence is incontrovertible. The DNA tests, your eyewitness testimony, even that of two of your neighbors, is used in court. After days of hearings, the judge is ready to hand down the sentence for this awful crime. Imagine the judge says: “Well, it looks to me like you murdered that family, but I don’t think you deserve to be punished. I will let you off the hook, just behave better in the future.”

How would you react? Would you consider this to be a just, righteous judge? Of course not. You would be calling every judge, police man, congressman, etc. that you could get in contact with! This would be the most corrupt, unjust judge on Earth!

God is no different. Imagine if I made a DVD of every thought you’ve had this week. Imagine I played that DVD in front of your friends and family. Do you think they would still want anything to do with you? Of course not; and you’d be headed as far away from them as possible out of shame. God sees all this. He’s aware of every sinful thought and action you do.

With all this evidence against you, why would you expect God to act unjustly? That would make God the Devil if He were to do that. Every last human born deserves eternal damnation for violating God’s holy law. You have sinned against an infinite God; you deserve infinite punishment. Also, just because a sinner goes to hell does not mean he will immediately repent and beg God for forgiveness. Based on the depravity of man, he will still hate God just as much when he’s screaming blasphemies at God from the gates of hell.

So why is anyone saved at all? Well, Paul has an answer:

Out of His love, He chose a portion of mankind (the elect) to inherit salvation. We were chosen by God out of His love and good pleasure. God saves us because Christ took the punishment for our sin on the cross and satisfied God’s wrath for the elect. Therefore, God can still be just by forgiving us since Christ took our place on the cross. Sin gets punished, God is still just, we get Heaven. What good news!

So let’s recap. We all deserve hell. God must punish sin to be just. God loves the elect and chose them for salvation. This love was exercised through Christ.

So why do some people go to hell? For the glory of God. God does nothing that doesn’t glorify God. He exercises His infinite and perfect love and mercy on the elect; He exercises His infinite and perfect wrath, justness, and holiness on the reprobate. Paul says as much in Romans 9:

Hope that answers your question!

The elect? That sure sounds like predenstination to me. A Calvinist position, to be sure.
I respect the fact that this is a belief you hold dear. My only question is, how can a loving God who created each of us in His image out of love predestine the *non-elect *to go to hell.

Hell has to be a place that we choose. Heaven and hell is the ultimate contrast that would not exist were it not for free will. The freedom to love or hate, to do good or evil, to practice virtue or vice. So, if God has already decided who is gointg to heaven, he must also have determined who will be damned. But they are damned before living. They are damned before sinning. They are damned before exercizing their own free will.

The scenario you chose to illustrate your point (The murdered family) deals with human justice, not Divine justice. Think of how unjust it was for God to permit his only begotten son to suffer and die such a horrible and humiliating death. And, yet he did it to save the very souls that tormented him. Where is the human justice in that? God’s mercy is infinite. Try to quantify what that means. It’s mindblowing.

God gave each of us gifts and talents. He expects us to live in this world and respond to him and to each other in love. Love can only have any substance when it is given freely. If we strive to love and live in God’s graces, how could God not be pleased? And if he is pleased how can this God who knew us before we were born, not desire that we spend eternitiy wih him?

 

[Rogare]

The elect? That sure sounds like predenstination to me. A Calvinist position, to be sure.

Of course it is. I prefaced my post by warning it would be a Reformed response

I respect the fact that this is a belief you hold dear. My only question is, how can a loving God who created each of us in His image out of love predestine the *non-elect *to go to hell.

God defines what love is; you don’t. I showed that God exercised his love by predestining the elect unto salvation. That is what a loving God does. God is also a just and holy God who cannot tolerate sin or just “let it slide.” Show me one nonbeliever that doesn’t enjoy sin and I will rethink my position. Everyone deserves hell. Your problem is the assumption that God owes you something. The only thing he owes you is eternal damnation and wrath due to the sins you commit daily. In love he rescues some from that fate. He simply lets everyone else go exactly their own way: hell. Nobody brought up double predestination except for you.

Hell has to be a place that we choose. Heaven and hell is the ultimate contrast that would not exist were it not for free will. The freedom to love or hate, to do good or evil, to practice virtue or vice.

Show me anything in Scripture that demonstrates man has free will. I’ve actually read the book and one is only left with two possibilities. You are either a slave to sin as Jesus said (John 8:34) or a slave to God (Romans 6:22). Now, I didn’t major in history, but I don’t remember my professor ever promoting the free will of a slave. The slave does exactly what His master wills: either sin or righteousness.

So, if God has already decided who is gointg to heaven, he must also have determined who will be damned. But they are damned before living. They are damned before sinning. They are damned before exercizing their own free will.

Yes, they are damned before they do a single thing on Earth. Did you not read Paul in Romans 9:11-13

Yet,** before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand**: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Jacob and Esau’s fate were sealed before they did anything; that’s how unconditional election works, friend. A little later Paul says

It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. (Romans 9:16)

Based on Paul’s teachings here, I have no choice but to believe that God makes the decision for salvation, based on his love and mercy, before we are born to do good or evil or “exercise our free will.”

The scenario you chose to illustrate your point (The murdered family) deals with human justice, not Divine justice. Think of how unjust it was for God to permit his only begotten son to suffer and die such a horrible and humiliating death. And, yet he did it to save the very souls that tormented him. Where is the human justice in that? God’s mercy is infinite. Try to quantify what that means. It’s mindblowing.

The illustration still fits. A criminal that has broken the law escapes without justice. The judge is thus wicked. We are criminals that break God’s law each day. You can’t just blow off the illustration because you do not like it.

Jesus chose to die for us, it was not an act of murder, but an act of self sacrifice and love:

This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. (1 John 3:16)

Please spend more time in God’s word. It seems that many Biblical concepts are foreign to you or you just prefer to insert pagan Greek philosophy in so that it is more palatable.

Just remember the following:

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of** him who works all things** according to the counsel of his will (Ephesians 1:11)

There is nothing that happens outside of God’s will. If someone goes to hell, it’s because God willed it. If someone doesn’t go to hell, it’s because God willed it.

You must eliminate your man-centered thinking. Everything is based on God. If your thinking isn’t God-centered, then it is wrong.

One last verse on God’s sovereignty:

I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ (Isaiah 46:9-10)

Go ahead and exercise your free will against that God.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Just to add a little quibble:

I’ve never been at all convinced by the idea of Hell contained in the description of a “choice”. To say that those who are in Hell want to be there is absolutely wrong. After a certain point (i.e. seeing it and knowing it exists), there can be nothing but a complete judgment and punishment. Were it a choice to remain resident in Hell, it would be empty. Saying that living in Hell for eternity is a choice is like saying that rejecting God after having been judged by Him is a choice.

How can you possibly reject that which you have seen and known the existence of? It would be like rejecting your rejection. When a soul is judged, all grace, life, and help that God sent him throughout life is revealed. The Almighty Immortal, the joyous perfect judge, the origin of reality, is revealed and known. How can anyone hold that Hell is a choice after having seen that? Hell is a place of punishment for the wicked. People go to Hell after death specifically because they ignored the possibility of going there while alive. No one would ever choose separation from the All Good once they’d seen Him.

 

[cargau]

God defines what love is; you don’t. I showed that God exercised his love by predestining the elect unto salvation. That is what a loving God does. God is also a just and holy God who cannot tolerate sin or just “let it slide.” Show me one nonbeliever that doesn’t enjoy sin and I will rethink my position. Everyone deserves hell. Your problem is the assumption that God owes you something. The only thing he owes you is eternal damnation and wrath due to the sins you commit daily. In love he rescues some from that fate. He simply lets everyone else go exactly their own way: hell. Nobody brought up double predestination except for you.

I do not presume to define what God’s love is. In John 3:16-17, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

And of course God owes me nothing. Yet, this profound love John writes about is something of a paradox, a mystery. That is why it is known as the Good News.

Show me anything in Scripture that demonstrates man has free will. I’ve actually read the book and one is only left with two possibilities. You are either a slave to sin as Jesus said (John 8:34) or a slave to God (Romans 6:22). Now, I didn’t major in history, but I don’t remember my professor ever promoting the free will of a slave. The slave does exactly what His master wills: either sin or righteousness.

OK, lets start with Adam and Eve, the citizens of Sodom, the residents of Babel, The elite of Judah and Israel for whom the prophets spoke, the Blessed Mother, Peter, Judas, Mary Magdelene. The Bible is filled with free will…

Yes, they are damned before they do a single thing on Earth. Did you not read Paul in Romans 9:11-13.

You take this passage to satisfy your purpose. But the passage really refers to God’s perogative to chose to bestow special blessiongs on whomever he wishes, not necessarily in order of age as was the Jewish custom. Isaac over Ismael, Jacob over Esau and Joseph over the other eleven.This is not about final judgment.

The illustration still fits. A criminal that has broken the law escapes without justice. The judge is thus wicked. We are criminals that break God’s law each day. You can’t just blow off the illustration because you do not like it.

Its not a question of whether I like your illustration, its just that it lacks depth. For example, using your words we are all criminals worthy only of eternal damnation. Yet, the elect are somehow saved in spite of their crimes. So, where is the justice. If we attempt to measure God’s justice in human terms, we fall far short.

Please spend more time in God’s word. It seems that many Biblical concepts are foreign to you or you just prefer to insert pagan Greek philosophy in so that it is more palatable.

Please choose your words more carefully. The Biblical concepts you think are foreign to me are not. I simply don’t agree with you interpretation/understanding of scripture. It is quite possible to see Scripture in any light we wish in order to support our preconceived notions. Perhaps that is why there are over 30,000 protestant denominations all espousing their own truths based on varying interpretations of scripture.

 

[Rogare]

I do not presume to define what God’s love is. In John 3:16-17, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

And of course God owes me nothing. Yet, this profound love John writes about is something of a paradox, a mystery. That is why it is known as the Good News.

I appreciate this; and I’m glad you accept this.

OK, lets start with Adam and Eve, the citizens of Sodom, the residents of Babel, The elite of Judah and Israel for whom the prophets spoke, the Blessed Mother, Peter, Judas, Mary Magdelene. The Bible is filled with free will…

Let me ask you this, did God know Adam and Eve would sin? Or did it catch Him by surprise? Once you answer this, I will unload much more concerning this particular issue.

You take this passage to satisfy your purpose. But the passage really refers to God’s perogative to chose to bestow special blessiongs on whomever he wishes, not necessarily in order of age as was the Jewish custom. Isaac over Ismael, Jacob over Esau and Joseph over the other eleven.This is not about final judgment.

I’m sorry, but that isn’t correct. Re-read all of Romans 8 and 9. If you are serious about this issue, then check out John Piper’s The Justification of God. It is an entire book of exegesis on Romans 9. He says it far, far, far better than I am capable.

Its not a question of whether I like your illustration, its just that it lacks depth. For example, using your words we are all criminals worthy only of eternal damnation. Yet, the elect are somehow saved in spite of their crimes. So, where is the justice. If we attempt to measure God’s justice in human terms, we fall far short.

Since you don’t understand this, I would suggest you look more into reformed theology. A brief primer-

Jesus took the punishment for our sins. He died in our place:

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed (Isaiah 53:5)

He was able to do this because God laid all of our iniquities on him:

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6)

On the cross, our sin was exchanged for His righteousness:

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God (2 Cor. 5:21)

God satisfies His justice by punishing Christ for our sins; Christ willfully underwent this.

 

[RosaryFan]

Just to add a little quibble:

I’ve never been at all convinced by the idea of Hell contained in the description of a “choice”. To say that those who are in Hell want to be there is absolutely wrong. After a certain point (i.e. seeing it and knowing it exists), there can be nothing but a complete judgment and punishment. Were it a choice to remain resident in Hell, it would be empty. Saying that living in Hell for eternity is a choice is like saying that rejecting God after having been judged by Him is a choice.

How can you possibly reject that which you have seen and known the existence of? It would be like rejecting your rejection. When a soul is judged, all grace, life, and help that God sent him throughout life is revealed. The Almighty Immortal, the joyous perfect judge, the origin of reality, is revealed and known. How can anyone hold that Hell is a choice after having seen that? Hell is a place of punishment for the wicked. People go to Hell after death specifically because they ignored the possibility of going there while alive. No one would ever choose separation from the All Good once they’d seen Him.

The way I understand it is we have a choice while we are alive on earth. During our brief stay on earth, we have the time to choose or reject God. Once we die, our time is up (literally, as we are now outside of time and space) and our choice that was made while we had the time is set for eternity. One thing we mortal humans have that the angels never had is “time”. In this “time” we can choose or reject God. Physical death occurs and time is up and our will is set.

I, too, don’t believe we’re given anything like a “final choice” during judgment to choose heaven or hell. Our choice has been made during our life. This is why making good confessions and doing penance is so important. It’s a shame confession and penance are so underrated and modern catechesis is so poor.

God gives us infinite opportunities to choose Him. We have the 7 sacraments as our tools for salvation. God is always calling poor sinners to return to Him. Even those without the benefit of the sacraments can save their souls in many different ways. We have a lifetime on earth to make good choices and live to the best of our ability as God-loving and God-fearing people who show love to their neighbors. Many do not. Even Christ said that many are invited, but few are chosen. If people sail through their lives living selfishly and being obdurate and persistent in their sins and evil ways, then why wouldn’t an eternity in hell be considered just? We certainly get fair warning. I cannot understand why someone who does not heed the warning should reap the same reward and those who do.

From 2,000 years ago, when Christ walked on earth, we received warning after warning after warning. It’s all over the pages of scripture. Look at the story of Lazarus in the bossom of Abraham. This is God’s way of saying, “Don’t wait too long, because you don’t want to be caught off guard”. This is directly from the mouth of God in whom I place all my trust. I’m not going to insult Him by trying to reason that “God wouldn’t do such a thing”, because He has already told us that He does!

People have such a hard time accepting that fact. I don’t know why people just don’t accept it and stop playing “chicken” with their souls. I wouldn’t like to see how far I can go being obdurate and persistent in my sins before death nabs me and then think I’m going to have this last chance for mercy. If I’ve spent my whole life rejecting the mercy, then God is certainly not going to shove Himself down my throat after my time is up. He spends our entire lives trying to shove Himself down our throats and being rejected.

 

[MarkInOregon]

I appreciate this; and I’m glad you accept this.

Let me ask you this, did God know Adam and Eve would sin? Or did it catch Him by surprise? Once you answer this, I will unload much more concerning this particular issue.

Isn’t there a difference between knowing what someone will choose and willing that choice? I have read Pride and Prejudice–I exist outside of the time of the book–I know what each of the characters will choose to do. Have I willed those choices? No I did not–I just know what they will be. Knowing does not equal willing.

Peace,
Mark

 

[cargau]

I appreciate this; and I’m glad you accept this.
Rogare;8084685:

Let me ask you this, did God know Adam and Eve would sin? Or did it catch Him by surprise? Once you answer this, I will unload much more concerning this particular issue.

Of course God knew. But, that doesn’t mean that Adam and Eve did not have the option to choose. If they did not have the freedom of their will, it would not have been a sin since the the three components of mortal sin are; grave matter, full knowledge and conformitty of the will.

I

I’m sorry, but that isn’t correct. Re-read all of Romans 8 and 9. If you are serious about this issue, then check out John Piper’s The Justification of God

. It is an entire book of exegesis on Romans 9. He says it far, far, far better than I am capable.

I don’t know Piper. Since I am unaware of his credentials, I am not comfortable relying of his commentary.

But as I understand Romans 8 and 9 ( But especially 9), Paul is lamenting the fact that his own people (The Jews) are so reticent to believe in Christ. Paul expected that evangilization would naturally flow from the Jewish faith. Rome had a fairly large Jewish community. Notice that much of his language in Romans concerns Jewish history and literature.

Since you don’t understand this, I would suggest you look more into reformed theology. A brief primer-.

You seem a bit frustrated with my inability to grasp. I respect your passion but I suspect what may seem thickheadedness is more a differrence of our understanding of truth…

 

[Rogare]

Of course God knew. But, that doesn’t mean that Adam and Eve did not have the option to choose. If they did not have the freedom of their will, it would not have been a sin since the the three components of mortal sin are; grave matter, full knowledge and conformitty of the will.

Since God cannot be wrong, the Adam and Eve had no choice but to sin. Correct? If they hadn’t, God would be errant.

I don’t know Piper. Since I am unaware of his credentials, I am not comfortable relying of his commentary.

But as I understand Romans 8 and 9 ( But especially 9), Paul is lamenting the fact that his own people (The Jews) are so reticent to believe in Christ. Paul expected that evangilization would naturally flow from the Jewish faith. Rome had a fairly large Jewish community. Notice that much of his language in Romans concerns Jewish history and literature.

I would encourage you to check some of his sermons out on Youtube; they’re great for all believers, not just Protestants. He received a Ph.D in New Testament Studies from the University of Munich, so he’s no lightweight by any means.

The only reason I recommended the book is so you could see an incredibly deep, scholarly exegesis of the passage we are in dispute over. It will demonstrate the classic reformed understanding of this passage.

You seem a bit frustrated with my inability to grasp. I respect your passion but I suspect what may seem thickheadedness is more a differrence of our understanding of truth…

Perhaps, but I’m greatly enjoying our conversation.

 

[cargau]

Since God cannot be wrong, the Adam and Eve had no choice but to sin. Correct? If they hadn’t, God would be errant.

The fact that God knew does not mean that he pre-ordained the sin. We are all made in God’s image. Since God is love we are made to love and our love for God and each other is an act of the free will. God may have known a thousand years ago that you would love him, still it is a choice that you and only you could make.

I would encourage you to check some of his sermons out on Youtube; they’re great for all believers, not just Protestants. He received a Ph.D in New Testament Studies from the University of Munich, so he’s no lightweight by any means.

The only reason I recommended the book is so you could see an incredibly deep, scholarly exegesis of the passage we are in dispute over. It will demonstrate the classic reformed understanding of this passage.

I have no doubt that Piper is very articulate. But, just because he is a Ph.D doesn’t give him a corner on the market on truth. While the Church has been far from perfect, Jesus did promise to send the Advocate to guide her. I have the greatest respect and admiration for Scripture, the Magesterium and the Tradition of the Church to guide us in Truth.

Perhaps, but I’m greatly enjoying our conversation.

Me too…

 

[Rogare]

The fact that God knew does not mean that he pre-ordained the sin. We are all made in God’s image. Since God is love we are made to love and our love for God and each other is an act of the free will. God may have known a thousand years ago that you would love him, still it is a choice that you and only you could make.

One cannot escape the fact that all things work after God’s will (Ephesians 1:11).

Just take a look at the instances where God’s will overrides man’s:

1. Joseph’s brothers hated him and wanted to kill him. Instead, they just sold him into slavery. Look at some of the things Joseph said:

So then, it was not you who sent me here, but God. He made me father to Pharaoh, lord of his entire household and ruler of all Egypt. (Genesis 45:8)

Even though Joseph’s brothers carried out the act, Joseph declared that God was in charge the entire time. According to v. 7, it was God’s will that Joseph end up on Egypt to save many lives. Joseph and his brothers were completely subject to God’s will.

1. God uses Assyria to bring judgment. We see two great truths here. First of all, God uses Assyria as he wishes:

Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! I send him against a godless nation, I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets. (Isaiah 10: 5-6)

However, even though they are doing God’s will, he plans to punish them for their wickedness:

But this is not what he intends,this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations. ‘Are not my commanders all kings?’ he says. (Isaiah 10:7-8)

He even goes on to mock them for attempting to question his will:

Does the ax raise itself above him who swings it, or the saw boast against him who uses it? As if a rod were to wield him who lifts it up, or a club brandish him who is not wood! (Isaiah 10:15)

Long story short, Assyria is clay in the hands of God.

1. Those who killed Jesus did so on account of God’s will. While praying to God, they say:

Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. (Acts 4:27-28)

Where is man’s free will?

I have no doubt that Piper is very articulate. But, just because he is a Ph.D doesn’t give him a corner on the market on truth. While the Church has been far from perfect, Jesus did promise to send the Advocate to guide her. I have the greatest respect and admiration for Scripture, the Magesterium and the Tradition of the Church to guide us in Truth.

I understand fully where you are coming from. The only reason I recommended the book was to provide a reformed viewpoint of Romans 9 so you could see where I’m coming from in my exegesis. I’m not saying he’s infallible

 

[cargau]

One cannot escape the fact that all things work after God’s will (Ephesians 1:11).

Conforming our will to God’s will should be the goal of every Christian. That doesn’t mean that we cannot act contrary to God’s will. God does not will that we sin, yet we do.

God willed that his only son become one like us, suffer, die and rise again. Yet, the Blessed Mother had to say yes to Gabriel. The angel did not dictate, he awaited her response, “Be it done unto me according to thy word”.

If God’s will always trumped our own free will, loving him would be automatic and autocratic. Indeed, it would not be love at all. Rather we would simply be a puppet on a string. I do not mean to suggest that our will is superior to God’s, or that our will is a better way than God’s. Quite the contrary. But when our wills fail to mesh, God is there to pick us up and help us along the road to heaven.

Remenber the parable of the talents in Matthew 25. Each were given something valuable. Each needed to decide what he was going to do with the gifts they received. The outcome mattered.