About justification

[Alexander_Tao]

I’m Eastern Orthodox.I have interest in justification.

Could any one tell me how Roman think of justification?Why Catholic deny Reform view of it?What is the fundamental different of Catholic and Reform’s view on justification?

If can,not give Bible verse only.Because Protestant can use Bible verse to support them also.Tell me how Church Fathers interpret “justification”.

Thanks!

 

[MarcoPolo]

The Reformed view believes man plays no part in his own justification, not even a cooperative effort done by God’s gift of grace with God’s gift of free will. Catholics believe man cooperates with God’s grace with the gift of will God gave him. Some Reformed tradition also believe in double-predestination which means God withholds grace from many people thus leaving them to go to hell. Catholics reject that. Reformed also believe it’s impossible to resist God’s will or the Spirit, and thus they believe it is impossible for one to truly be justified and later fall away. Catholics believe it is possible to fall away after justification…the seeds that take root for a while but wither away.

The Catholic view can be seen officially in the Catechism starting at paragraph 1987.

That is all a really brief summary. To get more detailed on the Catholic position you may want to read the Council of Trent, session 6.

 

[Alexander_Tao]

The Reformed view believes man plays no part in his own justification, not even a cooperative effort done by God’s gift of grace with God’s gift of free will. Catholics believe man cooperates with God’s grace with the gift of will God gave him. Some Reformed tradition also believe in double-predestination which means God withholds grace from many people thus leaving them to go to hell. Catholics reject that. Reformed also believe it’s impossible to resist God’s will or the Spirit, and thus they believe it is impossible for one to truly be justified and later fall away. Catholics believe it is possible to fall away after justification…the seeds that take root for a while but wither away.

The Catholic view can be seen officially in the Catechism starting at paragraph 1987.

That is all a really brief summary. To get more detailed on the Catholic position you may want to read the Council of Trent, session 6.

Thanks!But What I want to know is not these.It is Why Catholic Believe Man ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS rather COUNT RIGHTEOUS as Protestant.

 

[fhansen]

Thanks!But What I want to know is not these.It is Why Catholic Believe Man ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS rather COUNT RIGHTEOUS as Protestant.

In Roman Catholicism, it’s acknowledged that God never intended man to be unjust, and so justification consists of man actually becoming just again, basically to love God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself. As this is a work of God, it was made possible only by the reconciliation between Himself and man won on the cross at Calvary. But He still doesn’t accomplish this work completely without our cooperation, because our wills are the prize, so to speak; as man, in Adam, freely fell, man must freely rise again, with Gods help. In Reformed theology, man is so bad that he cannot rise, or become sinless, so his righteousness can only be “imputed”.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Thanks!But What I want to know is not these.It is Why Catholic Believe Man ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS rather COUNT RIGHTEOUS as Protestant.

The Protestants claim that justification is obtained through “imputation” or being counted righteous on account of someone’s faith. Problem: Aborted babies, the mentally retarded or ill, the deaf-blind, children below the age of reason, substance abusers, and many others are not capable of the kind of intellectual or creedal faith that Protestants say causes the imputation of righteousness. If “grace alone through faith alone” is the only thing that saves, then none of these groups can be saved, and that is manifestly unscriptural.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:4[/BIBLEDRB]

There’s a greater problem still. The Protestants require that the Christian do something (like have faith or say the sinner’s prayer) in order to obtain righteousness. This means that in the Protestant model, salvation is contingent on some action of the Christian (faith, prayer, etc.) rather than being a free gift from God. So the Protestant “grace alone” is not really “grace alone” because grace, by definition, is free. This is why God can save aborted babies who haven’t even had a chance to breathe, let alone read the Bible.

It is grace, not faith or some imputation of grace based on faith, that brings about salvation. However, since God desires everyone to be saved and yet not everyone is actually going to be saved (read Revelation), there must be some response to grace required of the Christian. That is where good works—including faith—come into play. Hebrews 10:26-27 clearly states that a Christian who receives grace and then deliberately commits a mortal sin is no longer saved. Thus the Christian needs to actually live out God’s grace in his or her life (read James and all of the Gospels).

 

[davidmlamb]

Scripture teaches us that we are save by faith through grace and that grace enables us to do the good works God has called us to do (Ephesians 2:8-10). Grace is the power of God which works in the heart and soul of a person that changes us into a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). When we cooperate with grace we are moved to good works and by virtue of the good works we do as a product of our faith we are justified (James 2:14-26). Hence we are not saved by faith alone but justified by the good works we do as a product of our faith (James 2:24) and it is grace that empowers us to deny our selves, pick up our crosses and follow Christ. It is grace that is God’s free gift which we receive by virtue of our faith, and salvation is the reward we receive for being faithful to God until the end of our lives… Hence we work out our salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:12-13).

Peace,

Dave

 

[pablope]

I’m Eastern Orthodox.I have interest in justification.

Could any one tell me how Roman think of justification?Why Catholic deny Reform view of it?What is the fundamental different of Catholic and Reform’s view on justification?

If can,not give Bible verse only.Because Protestant can use Bible verse to support them also.Tell me how Church Fathers interpret “justification”.

Thanks!

Here is a link that may get you started:

chnetwork.org/resources/coming-home-journals/

 

[pablope]

Thanks!But What I want to know is not these.It is Why Catholic Believe Man ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS rather COUNT RIGHTEOUS as Protestant.

From the parable of the sheep and goats in Matt 25:

[SIGN]33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ [/SIGN]

The sheep made themselves righteous by their actions. We make our selves righteous, by our actions.

[SIGN] 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.[/SIGN]

The goats on the other hand, did not make themselves righteous by their actions. Hence, by not making themselves righteous, they are also not being declared righteous or counted as righteous.

God is not blind.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Thanks!But What I want to know is not these.It is Why Catholic Believe Man ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS rather COUNT RIGHTEOUS as Protestant.

I see. Well, one of my favorite passages on this is the healing of the paralytic lowered through the ceiling Mk 2:8-12. Jesus heals the paralytic and forgives his sins. You see how Jesus proved to the audience that the man’s spiritual affliction had been healed by showing the audience that He could heal the man physically. It was not “I ‘count’ you healed.” or “I ‘declare’ you healed” when the man was not actually healed. First he showed the audience something they could see (an actual healing) so that they would believe what was happening in spirit where they could not see.

When Jesus healed physically—the person is actually healed! It’s not a cover-up where Jesus pretends the guy is not paralyzed anymore. Jesus is also the doctor of the spiritually ill.*Luke 5:31-32 Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”*So when Jesus heals someone sins, is He going to heal the person for real? Yes. Whenever He healed someone physically, what He was really teaching us is how He heals us for real spiritually when our sins our forgiven.

 

[Chesster]

Thanks!But What I want to know is not these.It is Why Catholic Believe Man ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS rather COUNT RIGHTEOUS as Protestant.

Romans 5:19 “For just as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.”