About Martha and Mary - The active life and contemplative life. Which is better ? See what you think dear friends

[onetruechurch]

When I was a young mother I was Martha 24 hours a day. I had to constantly think not only about the children but also make sure my husband was taken care of. I found no “regular” time for contemplation. There was no such thing as a routine. Even though I am still a “working gal” my life is now much more predictable. I can easily go to daily mass and say prayers at scheduled times. I no longer have the constant interuptions that all young mothers have. I can now have a more contemplative life. I hope there are no young mothers out there who feel guilty about not finding the time for daily contemplation. Being a busy mother is a very noble profession.

 

[Monica4316]

My dear friend Monica

You are very right and thank you for sharing all that with us. I’ll pray to help you discern Gods will. In the end we are only happy if we do Gods will, and Gods will is that we love. We are called to be saints in whatever state of life God calls us to. A saint is just someone who is very human and very loving. Anyone can strive for and achieve this, and not just religious. As you say we can pray always in many different forms and this is what St Paul told us to do- to pray without ceasing. I’m just a lowly Opus Dei cooperator, not a member, and not called to marriage or religious life at present. But I try to pray in all the different forms withourt ceasing. I try to be a contemplative in the world. Opus Dei is big on this. You can be a contemplative as a wife and mother you know? Many people do this. Wherever God wants you you can become a saint. And that’s all that matters. Hope this helps dear friend.

May God bless you:thumbsup:

John

thank you, that does help!

and thanks so much for your prayers!

God bless you too!

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

When I was a young mother I was Martha 24 hours a day. I had to constantly think not only about the children but also make sure my husband was taken care of. I found no “regular” time for contemplation. There was no such thing as a routine. Even though I am still a “working gal” my life is now much more predictable. I can easily go to daily mass and say prayers at scheduled times. I no longer have the constant interuptions that all young mothers have. I can now have a more contemplative life. I hope there are no young mothers out there who feel guilty about not finding the time for daily contemplation. Being a busy mother is a very noble profession.

My dear friend

If we’re busy tending to family, friends or anyone we just need to see we do Gods will and see God in them. If we love them and do all out of love for God we can see God in them and this is contemplation too. We can contemplate God in anthing. We can love when busy. Doing Gods will is prayer. Wives and mothers can be contemplatives so they must not think their missing out at all.

May God bless you:thumbsup:
John

 

[JRKH]

My dear friend

If we’re busy tending to family, friends or anyone we just need to see we do Gods will and see God in them. If we love them and do all out of love for God we can see God in them and this is contemplation too. We can contemplate God in anthing. We can love when busy. Doing Gods will is prayer. Wives and mothers can be contemplatives so they must not think their missing out at all.

May God bless you:thumbsup:
John

Many good points brought up so far in this thread.

I’m reminded of a quote, I can’t remember the particulars other than it was a military commander preparing to go into battle, which goes like this,
“Lord thou knowest how musy I must be this day. If I forget thee, do not Thee forget me.”

We all risk becoming too busy in our lives and forgetting God. The thing we must all try to do, whether contemplative or active, is to keep God Before us. I think it was St Francis DeSales who said somthing to the effect that we should take pride in nothing in our lives that does not give Glory to God.
Thus, whether our prayer time is quiet or busy, we need to keep God always in front of us and seek first His kingdom. This is one area where “sacramentals” can thelp. Carry a rosary - wear a scapular or a fourway medal - light a candle on the kitchen counter - little things like this just to remind ourselves of God’s kingship over us.

Peace
James

 

[djeter]

My dear friend
I try to come up with answers, solutions and conclusions that most perfectly will result in a final answer - God is Love, without too much effort on our minds. That is where I come from often now. No matter what we think, see, experience or anything we should see God is Love as the conclusion in my opinion. All that matters in the end is love and virtue with us.
John

God, as the Gospel of John puts it in one of the most misunderstood verses of Scripture, is love. His love is not contingent on creation. God is Love, before he ever spoke the light into existence and saw that it was good. Love is essential to his being, his life. He is, as Dante puts it, “the One who moves all things,” loving them into being and loved by them in turn, whence comes their motion.

To dwell on the meaning of God’s love, for the Christian poet, is to stand at the brink of a glorious and unfathomable sea. When Dante has risen to the utmost heights of paradise, he stands before a vision of that one God — the unity that comprehends plurality. There is a plenty in the being of God, and this plenty admits of love, receives love, and is love:

O Light that dwell within thyself alone,
Who alone know thyself, are known, and smile
With love upon the knowing and the known!

For more of this essay, which speaks to much of what you are saying:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/31/the-freedom-of-heaven-the-freedom-of-hell/

Regards

dj

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

God, as the Gospel of John puts it in one of the most misunderstood verses of Scripture, is love. His love is not contingent on creation. God is Love, before he ever spoke the light into existence and saw that it was good. Love is essential to his being, his life. He is, as Dante puts it, “the One who moves all things,” loving them into being and loved by them in turn, whence comes their motion.

To dwell on the meaning of God’s love, for the Christian poet, is to stand at the brink of a glorious and unfathomable sea. When Dante has risen to the utmost heights of paradise, he stands before a vision of that one God — the unity that comprehends plurality. There is a plenty in the being of God, and this plenty admits of love, receives love, and is love:
O Light that dwell within thyself alone,
Who alone know thyself, are known, and smile
With love upon the knowing and the known!
For more of this essay, which speaks to much of what you are saying:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/31/the-freedom-of-heaven-the-freedom-of-hell/

Regards

dj

My dearest friend

Thank you for that. i’m not much of a reader anymore though. I read a little online when necessary though. reading gives me a headache. Maybe I need glasses? God is Love means reality is love. If we sin we do not love. Sin is the opposite of love, sin is nothingness and love is reality. We say we believe God is Love but we don’t understand this if we sin. In heaven we shall not sin because we shall truly know what love is and then we could never sin once we see the infinite Love which is God. Our understanding and appreciation of the greatest truth that God is Love will never cease through eternity. We are supposed to start learning this as best we can now, and continue this in heaven. Heaven is like an endless sea full of treasure, the treasure is love. And we spend eternity exploring this great sea and finding new magnificent treasures every way we turn continually, eternally. To understand the Love of God we must have the life giving living love of God, which is God, dwelling in our souls. The more grace we have the more we can know, understand and appreciate about God. So if we sin we do not understand God is Love, though we think we do. And we can never learn enough on the subject. I thank you for the post and link. I am coming to see everything as God is Love more and more and love to learn more and more on this subject. I’m sure I’ll love reading it. Thank you

May the wondrous love which is God envelop us and reveal itself to us:thumbsup:

John

 

[MarieVeronica]

Hi John. My personal experience is that my life is a “Martha-Mary” mix! I have a great desire to be a “Mary”… but Our Lord has given me a “Martha” life.

I think there is enormous value and lessons, in the lives of both of these holy women. Now, I guess the challenge for us “Martha-Mary” mixes… is to find the balance!

God bless you!

MV

 

[T.A.Stobie_SFO]

Most of us are called to both times of activity in the service of the Lord as well as contemplative spirituality. Sometimes it can occur simulatenously, as when Mother Theresa saw Jesus in the poor she ministered to.

 

[Beachcomber]

The way I see it is being a ‘Mary’ in a ‘Martha’ world. It’s balance, as many of the posters have mentioned.

A person needs to carve out for themselves private time for the Lord; prayer, contemplation, the Rosary, whatever. That is food for the journey. I was very resentful of having to be a Martha and I felt so outer-directed in my energy that there was nothing left of any kind of interior life.

I can’t say that there was a specific ‘aha!’ moment when I realized that this was not getting me anywhere, or that God suddenly revealed to me that I needed to make time for Him; it was more a gradual coming to know that unless I deliberately made time for spiritual things (‘the better part’), I would continue to feel resentful and be ineffective.

But now I have my private quiet times and it wasn’t easy carving them out, either; but I’m glad I did.

Thanks for posting a thoughtful reflection, John.

 

[JReducation]

The Church has always held and taught the the contemplative life as lived by enclosed nuns and monks such as the Carthusians, Trappists and others who never leave their monasteries is the highest calling that God can make to man.

In this life, a man or a woman is completely absorbed into the mystery of God’s divine nature itself, without the labors and distractions of the active life, even when one is a religious. The Church is so convinced of this that the Council of Trent declared it a dogma and proclaimed that anyone who held that this was not the case should be anathema.

This call was to be lived in such a state of seclusion, that even those monks who are priests may never celebrate mass where the laity can see it or participate to avoid contamination that comes from the laity. Even when other religioius visit these houses, the monks hide and only one monk (an extern) is assigned to care for them and may speak to them. That is the degree of the sacredness of this way of life. It is a life that proclaims to the world the life of those angels who live only in God’s presence and never make their presence known to us.

There has never been a change to this decree. The vote has been cast by the Church itself. It’s not even up for discussion among us. Because there is nothing to discuss. It is one of those truths that we accept as we accept the mystery of the Trinity. That is because this life is a mystery, rooted in the person of Christ, not his ministry. The unity between Christ and the God-head is still and will continue to be an incomprehensible mystery to man. So is this way of life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

The Church has always held and taught the the contemplative life as lived by enclosed nuns and monks such as the Carthusians, Trappists and others who never leave their monasteries is the highest calling that God can make to man.

In this life, a man or a woman is completely absorbed into the mystery of God’s divine nature itself, without the labors and distractions of the active life, even when one is a religious. The Church is so convinced of this that the Council of Trent declared it a dogma and proclaimed that anyone who held that this was not the case should be anathema.

This call was to be lived in such a state of seclusion, that even those monks who are priests may never celebrate mass where the laity can see it or participate to avoid contamination that comes from the laity. Even when other religioius visit these houses, the monks hide and only one monk (an extern) is assigned to care for them and may speak to them. That is the degree of the sacredness of this way of life. It is a life that proclaims to the world the life of those angels who live only in God’s presence and never make their presence known to us.

There has never been a change to this decree. The vote has been cast by the Church itself. It’s not even up for discussion among us. Because there is nothing to discuss. It is one of those truths that we accept as we accept the mystery of the Trinity. That is because this life is a mystery, rooted in the person of Christ, not his ministry. The unity between Christ and the God-head is still and will continue to be an incomprehensible mystery to man. So is this way of life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Dear brother

I can agree with that as one who wants to be a monk, but for health. Whilst it is certainly the greatest calling which is undisputable as you say, it does not necessarily follow that one will achieve a higher degree of sanctity I think. I’m wondering about St Francis? Do you think many pure contemplatives achieve higher degrees of sanctity than him? I understand he was not in a monastery full time contemplating. I might be wrong though? You would know I’m sure. I thank you for your contribution and agree totally. As to the sanctity one can achieve it depends on the individual I think. Is this a fair comment dear brother?

God bless you:thumbsup:
John

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Hi John. My personal experience is that my life is a “Martha-Mary” mix! I have a great desire to be a “Mary”… but Our Lord has given me a “Martha” life.

I think there is enormous value and lessons, in the lives of both of these holy women. Now, I guess the challenge for us “Martha-Mary” mixes… is to find the balance!

God bless you!

MV

Thank you dear Marie

Same here at present. I did not know there was a dogma as the Brother just said but pure contemplation is very angelic like he says. We can all become saints, but I think it’s easier as a pure contemplative. I’d like to be a monk. We’ll see if the Lord does something about it. I think I’m definitely called but my SD says not possible due to health probs. We’ll see. It’s up to God if I can, in the end?

May God bless you abundantly:thumbsup:

John

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

The way I see it is being a ‘Mary’ in a ‘Martha’ world. It’s balance, as many of the posters have mentioned.

A person needs to carve out for themselves private time for the Lord; prayer, contemplation, the Rosary, whatever. That is food for the journey. I was very resentful of having to be a Martha and I felt so outer-directed in my energy that there was nothing left of any kind of interior life.

I can’t say that there was a specific ‘aha!’ moment when I realized that this was not getting me anywhere, or that God suddenly revealed to me that I needed to make time for Him; it was more a gradual coming to know that unless I deliberately made time for spiritual things (‘the better part’), I would continue to feel resentful and be ineffective.

But now I have my private quiet times and it wasn’t easy carving them out, either; but I’m glad I did.

Thanks for posting a thoughtful reflection, John.

My dear friend

Yeah. There are many distractions in the world. We all have the same probs I think. I found I must prioritise and overcome the devil who works so hard against us.

Thanks for you thoughts dear friend.

May God bless you abundantly:thumbsup:
John

 

[JRKH]

Dear brother

I can agree with that as one who wants to be a monk, but for health. Whilst it is certainly the greatest calling which is undisputable as you say, it does not necessarily follow that one will achieve a higher degree of sanctity I think. I’m wondering about St Francis? Do you think many pure contemplatives achieve higher degrees of sanctity than him? I understand he was not in a monastery full time contemplating. I might be wrong though? You would know I’m sure. I thank you for your contribution and agree totally. As to the sanctity one can achieve it depends on the individual I think. Is this a fair comment dear brother?

God bless you:thumbsup:
John

You are right in that St Francis was not in a cloistered environment. I think that you are also right in saying that it doesn’t necessarily follow that cloistered contemplatives achieve a higher degree of sanctitiy than a non-clostered or lay contemplative. Much depends upon the individual.
While such a calling, with it’s sacrifice and seclusion, is certainly a calling of the highest order, one must also recognize that God places each where He wishes them in accordance with His Will and their own strengths. The Sanctity that one achieves has to do with how fully each submits to His will in their calling and how attentive one is to each day’s calling by Our Lord.
While it is true that we, on the outside, are busier, can anyone deny the sanctity of a Theresa of Calcutta or Catherine of Seinna, or Francis of Assisi? Each of these lived the life to which they were called and did so fully in Christ. May we each emulate them.

Peace
James

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

You are right in that St Francis was not in a cloistered environment. I think that you are also right in saying that it doesn’t necessarily follow that cloistered contemplatives achieve a higher degree of sanctitiy than a non-clostered or lay contemplative. Much depends upon the individual.
While such a calling, with it’s sacrifice and seclusion, is certainly a calling of the highest order, one must also recognize that God places each where He wishes them in accordance with His Will and their own strengths. The Sanctity that one achieves has to do with how fully each submits to His will in their calling and how attentive one is to each day’s calling by Our Lord.
While it is true that we, on the outside, are busier, can anyone deny the sanctity of a Theresa of Calcutta or Catherine of Seinna, or Francis of Assisi? Each of these lived the life to which they were called and did so fully in Christ. May we each emulate them.

Peace
James

Dear James

Thank you for your insights. Very good:thumbsup:

God bless you dear friend:thumbsup:

John

 

[JReducation]

Dear brother

I can agree with that as one who wants to be a monk, but for health. Whilst it is certainly the greatest calling which is undisputable as you say, it does not necessarily follow that one will achieve a higher degree of sanctity I think. I’m wondering about St Francis? Do you think many pure contemplatives achieve higher degrees of sanctity than him? I understand he was not in a monastery full time contemplating. I might be wrong though? You would know I’m sure. I thank you for your contribution and agree totally. As to the sanctity one can achieve it depends on the individual I think. Is this a fair comment dear brother?

God bless you:thumbsup:
John

Hi John:

The Church makes a very clear distinction between the individual and the call. The call to the enclosed life is the highest calling in the Church. This does not ensure that everyone who receives the call and enters an enclosed community will avail himself of the graces that it has to offer. Now, there are certain graces that come with the response, meaning that the actual profession of solemn vows brings grace to the individual without his or her consent. Then there are other graces that are achieved by living the life faithfully. The individual decides how faithful he or she will be.

Yes, you are right about St. Francis. He was not a monk. He was a mendicant brother. Mendicants are not monks, do not receive the same high calling as monks do. St. Clare was a monastic. The second order of Franciscans is a monastic order to this day. The first and third orders are not. They are mendicant and lay. The friars and the secular Franciscans are lay orders. Priests are allowed to join either one, but they orders are lay orders. Therefore, they do not share in the same grace and dignity as the enclosed orders. The Church does not attribute to them the same degree of holiness as a way of life. That does not mean that the inviduals cannot achieve holiness. It simply means that the way of life is does not share in the mystical life the way that monasticism does.

Nonetheless, you have mystics who were lay: Francis of Assisi, Catherine of Siena, Mother Teresa, Martin de Porres, Angela Foligno and others.

Francis of Assisi was declared the perfect Christian by a papal encyclical, but he became the perfect model for Christians, not because he was a monk, but because he responded to his vocation in a heroic manner.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JRKH]

Hi John:

The Church makes a very clear distinction between the individual and the call. The call to the enclosed life is the highest calling in the Church. This does not ensure that everyone who receives the call and enters an enclosed community will avail himself of the graces that it has to offer. Now, there are certain graces that come with the response, meaning that the actual profession of solemn vows brings grace to the individual without his or her consent. Then there are other graces that are achieved by living the life faithfully. The individual decides how faithful he or she will be.

Yes, you are right about St. Francis. He was not a monk. He was a mendicant brother. Mendicants are not monks, do not receive the same high calling as monks do. St. Clare was a monastic. The second order of Franciscans is a monastic order to this day. The first and third orders are not. They are mendicant and lay. The friars and the secular Franciscans are lay orders. Priests are allowed to join either one, but they orders are lay orders. Therefore, they do not share in the same grace and dignity as the enclosed orders. The Church does not attribute to them the same degree of holiness as a way of life. That does not mean that the inviduals cannot achieve holiness. It simply means that the way of life is does not share in the mystical life the way that monasticism does.

Nonetheless, you have mystics who were lay: Francis of Assisi, Catherine of Siena, Mother Teresa, Martin de Porres, Angela Foligno and others.

Francis of Assisi was declared the perfect Christian by a papal encyclical, but he became the perfect model for Christians, not because he was a monk, but because he responded to his vocation in a heroic manner.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you JR for the wonderful post and insights. I bolded the last because it seems to sum up the whole issue. It is how we respond to the vocation that we are called to that is important. Even though the Church may have made declarations about the height of a given calling one should not consider their call to be “lesser” or that they are unable to attain great holiness. (I am not implying that you are saying this).
We must respond to the best of our ability and allow the Holy Spirit to work within us to grow in grace and sanctity.

Peace
James

 

[JReducation]

Thank you JR for the wonderful post and insights. I bolded the last because it seems to sum up the whole issue. It is how we respond to the vocation that we are called to that is important. Even though the Church may have made declarations about the height of a given calling one should not consider their call to be “lesser” or that they are unable to attain great holiness. (I am not implying that you are saying this).
We must respond to the best of our ability and allow the Holy Spirit to work within us to grow in grace and sanctity.

Peace
James

I use this analogy to explain this. The Office of the President or that of a Prime Minister is the highest office of government. Few people are called to that office. But that does not make him a better citizen than the working man in the ditches.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Hi John:

The Church makes a very clear distinction between the individual and the call. The call to the enclosed life is the highest calling in the Church. This does not ensure that everyone who receives the call and enters an enclosed community will avail himself of the graces that it has to offer. Now, there are certain graces that come with the response, meaning that the actual profession of solemn vows brings grace to the individual without his or her consent. Then there are other graces that are achieved by living the life faithfully. The individual decides how faithful he or she will be.

Yes, you are right about St. Francis. He was not a monk. He was a mendicant brother. Mendicants are not monks, do not receive the same high calling as monks do. St. Clare was a monastic. The second order of Franciscans is a monastic order to this day. The first and third orders are not. They are mendicant and lay. The friars and the secular Franciscans are lay orders. Priests are allowed to join either one, but they orders are lay orders. Therefore, they do not share in the same grace and dignity as the enclosed orders. The Church does not attribute to them the same degree of holiness as a way of life. That does not mean that the inviduals cannot achieve holiness. It simply means that the way of life is does not share in the mystical life the way that monasticism does.

Nonetheless, you have mystics who were lay: Francis of Assisi, Catherine of Siena, Mother Teresa, Martin de Porres, Angela Foligno and others.

Francis of Assisi was declared the perfect Christian by a papal encyclical, but he became the perfect model for Christians, not because he was a monk, but because he responded to his vocation in a heroic manner.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Very good thank you dear Brother. I think I’m going to be a monk one day in the next few years. I hope I’m a good one.

God bless you:thumbsup:
John

 

[puzzleannie]

When I was a young mother I was Martha 24 hours a day. I had to constantly think not only about the children but also make sure my husband was taken care of. I found no “regular” time for contemplation. There was no such thing as a routine. Even though I am still a “working gal” my life is now much more predictable. I can easily go to daily mass and say prayers at scheduled times. I no longer have the constant interuptions that all young mothers have. I can now have a more contemplative life. I hope there are no young mothers out there who feel guilty about not finding the time for daily contemplation. Being a busy mother is a very noble profession.

high, back after vacation and revisiting this interesting and valuable discussion. so delighted to hear from those discerning vocations, we are praying for you.

hon, this needed to be said, as I had this exact conversation with both of my daughters in the different contexts of their current lives (one a SAHM, the other a working mom of toddlers). Both asked me, oddly enough given their different personalities, how to build time for prayer, esp. contemplative prayer, in the midst of their busy lives. (SAHM actually spends more time out of the house in her own and kids various endeavors than does the other, who has a more fixed, reliable schedule).

We talked about exactly this issue, how “Martha-ness”, busyness for its own sake, can derail not only the spiritual life but the priorities in the secular life as well, and how “Mary-ness” helps us reorder those priorities.

The vowed religious, even one living in a secluded monastery, can be just as devastated by the impulse to replace genuine contemplation with busyness, either of the mundane variety or the devotional type. The person in the world who tries to build up their prayer life can also be derailed by mistaking multiplicity of devotions and spiritual exercises (as well as of active apostolates) with true contemplation. Entering a monastery does not guarantee a clear path to contemplation, any more than a life full of immediate necessary worldly concerns necessarily is an absolute barrier.

the truest path to union with God (the sole goal of contemplative prayer) is pursuing the vocation to which God has called us in this world to the best of our ability, and in the context of our duty, love, obedience and trust to Him. This is the definition of taking up one’s cross daily.