? about Mary for Baptists + 1 more

[kalt]

Do Baptists believe that Mary is the mother of God?
Do Baptists ever “speak” to their relatives in Heaven?

These are unrelated questions that aren’t posted to “set up” a pile on. I’m just curious and would appreciate it if some Baptists could fill me in.

OK, one more. Are Baptists required to believe everything that the church says is true?

Again, this isn’t to set up an attack, and I hope my fellow Catholics on the board will respect my wishes to get a few simple questions answered without igniting WWIII. I know that I have no right to try to control the board, but I’d like to come back to this thread tomorrow or the next day and find answers to my questions without having to weed through a whole lotta debating.

 

[robwar]

Hi,
in general Baptists do believe that Jesus is the Son of God but would not use the term “mother of God” because most would view that saying as making Mary divine because she is the mother of God. of course in using this expression we are not saying that Mary is divine.
In general, Baptists do not believe as Biblical as number of things that the Catholic Church teaches about Mary such as her immaculate conception and perpetual virginity and her assumption into heaven. Baptist do not believe in asking those in heaven for help. Praying to saints is viewed as wrong, even though they do ask each other for prayers. Praying and asking saints is viewed as either worship (it is not) or a lack of trust in Jesus. There are many versions and splits among Baptists but this is what most all of them believe. Again, I am not saying I agree with any of this (I don’t). I am just trying to answer your questions in a simple objective way.

 

[yellowantphil]

I’m a former Baptist, if that will do.

Do Baptists believe that Mary is the mother of God?

They’ll say that Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus. That’s about it.

Do Baptists ever “speak” to their relatives in Heaven?

No. I was never even exposed to the concept of people doing that, except maybe from TV.

OK, one more. Are Baptists required to believe everything that the church says is true?

Not really. You have to believe the Bible though. With the congregational model of church governance, you have the belief that there is no central authority for church beliefs. But if you’re part of a specific Baptist denomination (I was American Baptist), you ought to believe what that denomination teaches, or the whole church could leave that particular denomination if they voted in favor of it.

 

[Cat]

Be careful when researching what Baptists believe. There are literally hundreds of different denominations of “Baptist,” and they range from one end of the spectrum to the other.

E.g., in Raleigh, where we lived for ten years, one Baptist church believed in strict separation from the world, and practiced snake handling on a regular basis. (The local media usually did a story about this sect and their snakes once a year or so, and usually the story was quite derisive. I felt kind of sorry for these people, who were only continuing a tradition that has been passed down for centuries. I felt like the media should just leave them alone in peace.)

But another Baptist church in Raleigh was so pro-choice that they hosted NARAL meetings. This same Baptist church rented out their building to the local WICCA group. They were politically and theological liberal–I wondered sometimes why they bothered to call themselves Christians.

And still another Baptist church was “the” evangelical stronghold in the city–very conservative theologically and politically, and quite active in reaching out to the community.

Some Baptists still practice headcovering by females in the church.

Some Baptists still don’t allow make-up, dancing, theater, rock music, etc.

But some Baptists DO allow all these things, and their worship services are filled with theatrical performances and Jesus rock music. And still others do not have any music in their services other than organ music and older hymns.

The Conference Baptist church that I grew up in incorporated a lot of Swedish traditions, since this conference started out as “Swedish Baptist.” When I was a child, they still had a service in Swedish, and throughout my years in that church, Swedish songs were sung by the choir and occasionally the congregation.

So the gist of it is–each Baptist church is different–THAT is the hallmark of being Baptist–having FREEDOM to interpret the Bible the way you choose, and form your OWN fellowship/church. They are very proud of that freedom, and see the many denominations as something good, not bad. (Even though John 17 includes Jesus’ prayer asking that believers be “one,” Baptists would say that Christians are still “one,” even though we all believe and practice differently. They would say that only when we have freedom are we truly “one Body.”)

This means that you have to ask each Baptist church for their “Statement of Faith” and read it carefully to figure out what they teach.

I agree that most Baptists do not refer to Mary as the Mother of God, and most Baptists do not teach asking saints in heaven for intercessary prayer. BUT–never say never! Considering that the “emerging church” movement has influenced many Protestant churches, I would be willing to bet cash that there are Baptist churches in the United States who DO teach various “Catholic” Marian doctrines, and who DO teach their members to ask the saints for prayer. So don’t assume anything without seeing the written Statement of Faith.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“E.g., in Raleigh, where we lived for ten years, one Baptist church believed in strict separation from the world, and practiced snake handling on a regular basis. (The local media usually did a story about this sect and their snakes once a year or so, and usually the story was quite derisive. I felt kind of sorry for these people, who were only continuing a tradition that has been passed down for centuries. I felt like the media should just leave them alone in peace.)”

I seen a documentary on this. Extreme for me. I can’t imagine the population of the congregation growing to quickly.

 

[Radical]

Do Baptists believe that Mary is the mother of God?

Jesus is the Father’s only Son. Jesus was also Mary’s son. The natures of two relationships are obviously very different and (with the few that bother to consider the title) there is a concern that the title “Mother of God” is used to improperly inflate Mary’s signifcance

Do Baptists ever “speak” to their relatives in Heaven?

yes, at a funeral it is typically stated that the deceased is now in heaven with Jesus. Often it is even stated that the deceased looks down on his loved ones from heaven, but one does not seek the deceased’s help in any matter.

OK, one more. Are Baptists required to believe everything that the church says is true?

typically, there are a set of core beliefs that the members of the church must accept (usually 10-20 points in a statement of beliefs) and a good bit of liberty beyond that set

Again, this isn’t to set up an attack, and I hope my fellow Catholics on the board will respect my wishes to get a few simple questions answered without igniting WWIII.

good luck with that

Cat:

Be careful when researching what Baptists believe. There are literally hundreds of different denominations of “Baptist,” and they range from one end of the spectrum to the other.

I suspect the baptist beliefs (if such could be graphed) would “bell-curve” quite nicely with the vast majority centered and the extremes rather sparsely populated…so IMHO, although a considerable range would exist, it would be possible to generalize and describe a great majority of baptists within that generalization.

 

[ChrisCath]

How would Baptists interpret a verse like Luke 1:43?

[BIBLEDRB]Lk 1:43[/BIBLEDRB]

mother of my Lord (Lord = God)

Elizabeth says this while “filled with the Holy Spirit” (see Luke 1:41).

This seems pretty clear to me.

 

[twf]

How would Baptists interpret a verse like Luke 1:43?

[BIBLEDRB]Lk 1:43[/BIBLEDRB]

mother of my Lord (Lord = God)

Elizabeth says this while “filled with the Holy Spirit” (see Luke 1:41).

This seems pretty clear to me.

Yes, Protestants, if shown this verse, surely can’t deny that the title “the Mother of my Lord”, at the very least, is thoroughly Biblical . How is the “Mother of my Lord” any different than “the Mother of God”? I think Protestants forget that the title Mother of God was primarily promulgated to defend the divinity of Christ and his dual natures! The title affirms that Jesus the man is also Jesus the God - He is one person, not two. To be the mother of Jesus, who is God, is to be the mother of God… the title does not in any way suggest that Mary is the mother of the Father or of the Spirit or the source of divinity.

 

[Calgar]

Do Baptists believe that Mary is the mother of God?

Yes.

Do Baptists ever “speak” to their relatives in Heaven?

Don’t know the official stance on that. Generally, once a person has died it’s over and they are in one of two places that you can go after death.

Are Baptists required to believe everything that the church says is true?

No. Most SBC ministers are very meticulous about their sermons. They include all sources so that you can research what they’ve said. It helps keep them honest, in my opinion.

I am speaking as a Southern Baptist. I have no idea what other denominations would believe.

 

[Nicea325]

I’m a former Baptist, if that will do.

They’ll say that Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus. That’s about it.

No. I was never even exposed to the concept of people doing that, except maybe from TV.

Not really. You have to believe the Bible though. With the congregational model of church governance, you have the belief that there is no central authority for church beliefs. But if you’re part of a specific Baptist denomination (I was American Baptist), you ought to believe what that denomination teaches, or the whole church could leave that particular denomination if they voted in favor of it.

The earthly mother of Jesus? That is a heresy which was stamped out centuries ago. How can Mary just be the mother of the human Jesus and not the Divine Jesus? Either Jesus is God 100% and human 100% or he is merely man and not God?

 

[robwar]

The earthly mother of Jesus? That is a heresy which was stamped out centuries ago. How can Mary just be the mother of the human Jesus and not the Divine Jesus? Either Jesus is God 100% and human 100% or he is merely man and not God?

Yes you are right 100%. but many protestants believe that if you use the title “mother of God” that you are making Mary divine and a goddess. Since most Baptists have not any sence of Christian history and what various church counsels have taught and the importance of this title for Mary, they come up with the erroneous notion that Mother of God means we are saying that Mary is somehow divine. Yes it does not make sense to think this at all but a number of them think we are worshipping Mary and making her a goddess by using this title. It show the the depth of lunancy in Protestantism and the total lack of history, understanding of dogma, lack of any thing intellectual or theological, lack of how doctrine is developed etc etc etc.

 

[ForeverGrace]

Yes you are right 100%. but many protestants believe that if you use the title “mother of God” that you are making Mary divine and a goddess. Since most Baptists have not any sence of Christian history and what various church counsels have taught and the importance of this title for Mary, they come up with the erroneous notion that Mother of God means we are saying that Mary is somehow divine. Yes it does not make sense to think this at all but a number of them think we are worshipping Mary and making her a goddess by using this title. It show the the depth of lunancy in Protestantism and the total lack of history, understanding of dogma, lack of any thing intellectual or theological, lack of how doctrine is developed etc etc etc.

I don’t mind when people of other faiths misspeak about what another denomination or even another faith believes. But this… is just completely not true. There are all kinds of Baptists. Independent Baptists (watch out or them, LOL), Reformed Baptists such as myself, Free Will Baptists… I could go on and on. I’m sure you understand. I know Catholics who believe in artificial contraception, abortion and even gay marriage. So, it’s never a good idea to make a blanket statement about any faith. I’d never say 'most Catholics believe in using artificial contraception, just because some do. I’d be wrong and it works the same way or you.

I’ve been a Baptist or more than 40 years. Yes, we accept the virgin birth and recognize Mary as the earthly mother of Jesus. We hold that she is blessed, but not sinless and we do not believe that she was bodily raised to heaven, nor a mediatrix. There is no scripture to support that.

If you want to make blanket statements about lunacy and a lack of study regarding church history and patristics, I’m happy to challenge you. Do you know how many Pope’s denied the sinlessness of Mary? Who were they? Do you know what Augustine had to say about monergism? The doctrine of election, etc.? It’s called stereotyping when you make statements about a certain group based on no actual knowledge of that group. Since you seem to be so knowledgeable of your faith and quickly mock others, I’d be interested in seeing what you have to say regarding the long history of St. Cyprian’s claim regarding the possibility of salvation outside the Catholic Church. Would Pope John Paul II agree?

While you are studying, see what the Catholic Church really says about the nature of Mary. Do so carefully. You might have to actually take back what you said.

I don’t know everything about Catholicism. That is why I ask questions. But I’m very familiar with church history and make a habit of studying it.

I look forward to our exchange. God Bless.

 

[Nicea325]

ForeverGrace:

I don’t mind when people of other faiths misspeak about what another denomination or even another faith believes. But this… is just completely not true. There are all kinds of Baptists. Independent Baptists (watch out or them, LOL), Reformed Baptists such as myself, Free Will Baptists… I could go on and on. I’m sure you understand. I know Catholics who believe in artificial contraception, abortion and even gay marriage. So, it’s never a good idea to make a blanket statement about any faith. I’d never say 'most Catholics believe in using artificial contraception, just because some do. I’d be wrong and it works the same way or you.

I agree with you there my brother/sister in Christ.

I’ve been a Baptist or more than 40 years. Yes, we accept the virgin birth and recognize Mary as the earthly mother of Jesus. We hold that she is blessed, but not sinless and we do not believe that she was bodily raised to heaven, nor a mediatrix. There is no scripture to support that.

I disagree with Mary being only the earthly Mother of Jesus. I hope you aware that was a heresy? No scripture to support that? First show us where scripture teaches explicitness and where everything needs to be said and taught in the Bible?

If you want to make blanket statements about lunacy and a lack of study regarding church history and patristics, I’m happy to challenge you.

We are game…welcome!

Do you know how many Pope’s denied the sinlessness of Mary? Who were they?

And do you know how many Christians deny Hell? Do opinions matter to God? Names of popes and their writings. Second, since when was it forbidden for popes to give their opinions about doctrine/dogma?

Do you know what Augustine had to say about monergism? The doctrine of election, etc.?

Yes,but what does that have to do doctrine and dogma he accepted?

It’s called stereotyping when you make statements about a certain group based on no actual knowledge of that group. Since you seem to be so knowledgeable of your faith and quickly mock others, I’d be interested in seeing what you have to say regarding the long history of St. Cyprian’s claim regarding the possibility of salvation outside the Catholic Church. Would Pope John Paul II agree?

Do you understand the CC position and teaching on the phrase: Salvation outside the CC?

While you are studying, see what the Catholic Church really says about the nature of Mary. Do so carefully. You might have to actually take back what you said.

Huh? Official Catholic documents on the matter…please.

I don’t know everything about Catholicism. That is why I ask questions. But I’m very familiar with church history and make a habit of studying it.

I look forward to our exchange. God Bless.

Likewise…God Bless you Graceforever

 

[yellowantphil]

The earthly mother of Jesus? That is a heresy which was stamped out centuries ago. How can Mary just be the mother of the human Jesus and not the Divine Jesus? Either Jesus is God 100% and human 100% or he is merely man and not God?

I probably didn’t phrase what I was saying well enough. Anyway, I think that most Baptists avoid using the title “Mother of God,” even though they believe that Mary was Jesus’ mother, and that Jesus is God.

I tried looking on the website of American Baptist Churches USA for a statement of faith about Mary, but I didn’t find anything. Maybe the Southern Baptist Convention has something to say about it, but I didn’t look.

 

[maltmom]

ForeverGrace:

I agree with you there my brother/sister in Christ.

I disagree with Mary being only the earthly Mother of Jesus. I hope you aware that was a heresy? No scripture to support that? First show us where scripture teaches explicitness and where everything needs to be said and taught in the Bible?

We are game…welcome!

And do you know how many Christians deny Hell? Do opinions matter to God? Names of popes and their writings. Second, since when was it forbidden for popes to give their opinions about doctrine/dogma?

Yes,but what does that have to do doctrine and dogma he accepted?

Do you understand the CC position and teaching on the phrase: Salvation outside the CC?

Huh? Official Catholic documents on the matter…please.

Likewise…God Bless you Graceforever

Saying that what he said is heresy is your belief as a Catholic. Most protestants see what Catholics believe as heresy. As a Baptist & Presbyterian I was taught that Mary was blessed among women. That she was obedient to God’s call. That Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. That Mary was the mother of the human side of Jesus. That Jesus was both 100% human and 100% God. Of course I was one of those strange kids that automatically thought she was the Mother of God b/c Jesus was both.

Kalt, I think I’ve covered your 1st question about what I was taught.
#2. The church doesn’t teach that we can and should talk to our dead relatives, but I’ve known people who “talk” to their relatives and tell them what’s going on. They hope that the person hears, but they really don’t know.
#3 Like others have said you should believe what the denomination teaches, but you can also all decide some things for yourself.

 

[Patavium]

My fellow baptists friends always try to downplay Virgin Mary’s role. Yes, they believe in the virgin birth through the Blessed Mother by the Holy Spirit. However, they don’t believe in the communion of saints (although they do read about the life of saints - the bible says we are called to be saints). Not believing in the communion of saints means that they don’t believe in the intercession, and thus cannot believe in the Blessed Mother’s intercession.

Unfortunately, not believing in the intercession means believing the body of Christ (the church) is fragmented (irony as protestants are exactly that even within their denominations), and thus those fellow christians who are in Heaven cannot pray for us, and we don’t ask them to pray for us to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Generally, I would say that anything that is not explicitly in the bible is not believed by Baptists, and by Bible I mean the incomplete catholic bible without many books. Most prefer the New American Standard Bible, or King James Bible. Some like the NIV or NIRV.

 

[robwar]

I don’t mind when people of other faiths misspeak about what another denomination or even another faith believes. But this… is just completely not true. There are all kinds of Baptists. Independent Baptists (watch out or them, LOL), Reformed Baptists such as myself, Free Will Baptists… I could go on and on. I’m sure you understand. I know Catholics who believe in artificial contraception, abortion and even gay marriage. So, it’s never a good idea to make a blanket statement about any faith. I’d never say 'most Catholics believe in using artificial contraception, just because some do. I’d be wrong and it works the same way or you.

I’ve been a Baptist or more than 40 years. Yes, we accept the virgin birth and recognize Mary as the earthly mother of Jesus. We hold that she is blessed, but not sinless and we do not believe that she was bodily raised to heaven, nor a mediatrix. There is no scripture to support that.

If you want to make blanket statements about lunacy and a lack of study regarding church history and patristics, I’m happy to challenge you. Do you know how many Pope’s denied the sinlessness of Mary? Who were they? Do you know what Augustine had to say about monergism? The doctrine of election, etc.? It’s called stereotyping when you make statements about a certain group based on no actual knowledge of that group. Since you seem to be so knowledgeable of your faith and quickly mock others, I’d be interested in seeing what you have to say regarding the long history of St. Cyprian’s claim regarding the possibility of salvation outside the Catholic Church. Would Pope John Paul II agree?

While you are studying, see what the Catholic Church really says about the nature of Mary. Do so carefully. You might have to actually take back what you said.

I don’t know everything about Catholicism. That is why I ask questions. But I’m very familiar with church history and make a habit of studying it.

I look forward to our exchange. God Bless.

Hello back,
the title Theotokos is defined by the Church counsel of Ephesis in 431 against the Nestorian heresy which says that that Mary was only the mother of Jesus human nature.
This title is only used by Catholics and Orthodox and some mainline Protestant denominations. This question is not about the virgin birth of Jesus which both of us (Catholic or not) would agree on. Theotokos or Mother of God has more to do with the nature of Christ than Mary and there is no Baptist denomination and its many versions and branches that use it. Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human. Mary is his mother. As to your other comments about Popes that did not believe in Mary’s immaculate conception, you did not give any quotes but just gave some blanket crack. I suggest you read the book by Patrick Madrid “Pope Fiction” and educate yourself about the number of myths and misquotes about Popes. About your comment that Mary’s sinlessness is unbiblical, I suggest you read your Bible again and contemplate about what the angel Gabriel meant when he addressed Mary as “Hail full of grace”. He did not use Mary’s name but called her by her position with God “full of grace” What do you think he meant by that? What do you think “full of grace” means? Maybe that means what the Catholic and orthodox churches have always believed about Mary i.e. immaculately conceived without sin. About the assumption of Mary, the Bible does give 3 example of that happening, Enoch, Elijah and it is strongly implied for Moses. Unlike what some Baptist believe that the miracles ended with the last book of the Bible (a very unbiblical teaching), it was always stated by the earliest Christians that Mary was assumed into heaven. And someone of her importance in being the mother of Jesus (God), it certainly would be known to all where she would have been buried. Since her body is no longer here does point to her assumption. You need to study church history and teaching not through some Baptist eyes but what real early church fathers wrote and taught which is nothing like the many Baptists groups out there.

 

[ForeverGrace]

nicea325,

I appreciate your responses. They are pretty much standard Catholic faire that I am used to, but it’s nice to see a respectful exchange.

I directed by comments to robwar and it looks like either he/she hasn’t seen my post, saw the post and chose to ignore it, or well… the other option is best not verbalized.

When you call protestants and/or their beliefs lunacy then you had better be able to support that with some facts, which he/she did not. Of course, I could be mistaken, but I’ve never known a protestant to decide that Mary is a goddess, for that matter, I’ve never known a Catholic who held to that either. So for him/her (robwar) to really study the argument would naturally leave one wondering why they would ever have come to such a conclusion. I concede that someone might believe that, but it’s not standard doctrine for any faith that I’m aware of.

If my study is correct there are 7 popes who denied the sinlessness of Mary. I’ll post them along with their quotes. I have them stored on my home computer. May I send them to you via PM? The forum rules seem to frown upon long articles being posted.

I understand that Popes have an ‘escape clause’. I don’t mean that in a disrespectful way, but I hear all the time that unless a Pope says something ex-cathedra then, anything they say is just their opinion and Catholicism as a whole cannot be expected to be responsible for the words of Popes. Yet, I find that many (certainly not all) Catholics want to hold Protestants responsible for every thing they might say. All I’m asking for is fundamental fairness if we are going to evaluate what is said. Seems fair, yes? I don’t hold all of Catholicism guilty for what ‘Call to Action’ and ‘Catholics for Choice’ say.

Yep, you’ll be hard pressed to find a consensus on Mary, but my experience is that most protestant denominations hold to the virgin birth and hold to the fact that she was blessed. But I’ve never been able to find a single scripture that supports the idea that she was sinless. Scripture says “ALL” have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That seems to settle it for us. I understand that in general, Catholics hold that since she was “full of grace” that somehow translates to sinlessness. I don’t see that at all. In fact Jesus was crucified to make payment or our sins for which He extends to us “Grace”. If Mary didn’t have sin in her life, then she would not have needed any grace.

Do I understand the CC position on salvation outside of the church? Good question. I don’t think that the CC HAS a position on salvation outside of the church. If you follow the history since the fourth Lateran Council, it becomes evident that no one wants to make a concise and final argument for it. The CC position seems to vascillate depending on whether a conservative or liberal holds the keys. I can accept that the doctrine seems to be fluid, but other than that, it seems to me that the only way to avoid this inconsistency is to change the question. In reality, I don’t care what the CC finally decides or how they decide it. It has no impact on me, since I’m already hell bound according to the CC.

Christians who don’t believe in hell? I don’t personally know any, but I am very aware that there are some people who call themselves Christians who do indeed deny hell. The most recent of which was Rob Bell. I don’t know of any Baptists (of any flavor) who would deny hell.

Bottom line. If you (not you personally) are going to try to stereotype protestants, call them lunatics and then insinuate that they are too lazy to study church history, someone who is neither a lunatic, or unlearned in the history of Christianity, will call you on it.

While l disagree with many of the CC teachings, it does not mean that I dislike Catholics. And… I’m not about to call a Catholic either a lunatic or ignorant of history. There are a good many Catholics that I hold in the highest of regard. I’d love to sit down with Bill Theirfelder from Belmont Abbey. He is surely someone, that any denomination would love to claim. To your credit he chose Catholicism and he practices what he preaches. He has 9 children.

God Speed.

 

[ForeverGrace]

Hello back,
the title Theotokos is defined by the Church counsel of Ephesis in 431 against the Nestorian heresy which says that that Mary was only the mother of Jesus human nature.
This title is only used by Catholics and Orthodox and some mainline Protestant denominations. This question is not about the virgin birth of Jesus which both of us (Catholic or not) would agree on. Theotokos or Mother of God has more to do with the nature of Christ than Mary and there is no Baptist denomination and its many versions and branches that use it. Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human. Mary is his mother. As to your other comments about Popes that did not believe in Mary’s immaculate conception, you did not give any quotes but just gave some blanket crack. I suggest you read the book by Patrick Madrid “Pope Fiction” and educate yourself about the number of myths and misquotes about Popes. About your comment that Mary’s sinlessness is unbiblical, I suggest you read your Bible again and contemplate about what the angel Gabriel meant when he addressed Mary as “Hail full of grace”. He did not use Mary’s name but called her by her position with God “full of grace” What do you think he meant by that? What do you think “full of grace” means? Maybe that means what the Catholic and orthodox churches have always believed about Mary i.e. immaculately conceived without sin. About the assumption of Mary, the Bible does give 3 example of that happening, Enoch, Elijah and it is strongly implied for Moses. Unlike what some Baptist believe that the miracles ended with the last book of the Bible (a very unbiblical teaching), it was always stated by the earliest Christians that Mary was assumed into heaven. And someone of her importance in being the mother of Jesus (God), it certainly would be known to all where she would have been buried. Since her body is no longer here does point to her assumption. You need to study church history and teaching not through some Baptist eyes but what real early church fathers wrote and taught which is nothing like the many Baptists groups out there.

I think it’s fair to say, that the Catholic understanding of the significance of Mary’s status is just that. It’s a Catholic understanding, and many Protestant denominations call your doctrine heresy. So, I suppose it comes down to dueling theology. But in no case does it accuse anyone of having beliefs that are lunacy.

You really are having a problem with facts. There are indeed Baptists who are not cessationists. That means they do believe in the continuation of miracles. Your argument about a burial place or Mary also has issues. You do know that history reports that Jesus was entombed in two different places.

As to my study. Most of what I have studied comes from Catholic sources. But I will send you the quotes via pm if you want to see them.

Tell you what, I’ll read yet another book by Patrick Madrid if you read The Roman Catholic Controversy by James White. Two opinions that are diverse. Each seen with the eyes of the author. But I’m warning you, I’ll never read anything by Gerry Matatics and I suspect you wouldn’t either. A sedevacantist.

I respect what you believe even if I don’t agree. I haven’t called you a lunatic and I’ve not said you are unlearned. You however, as far as I can tell, are not interested in doing the same.

God Speed.

 

[ForeverGrace]

nicea325,

I appreciate your responses. They are pretty much standard Catholic faire that I am used to, but it’s nice to see a respectful exchange.

I directed by comments to robwar and it looks like either he/she hasn’t seen my post, saw the post and chose to ignore it, or well… the other option is best not verbalized.

When you call protestants and/or their beliefs lunacy then you had better be able to support that with some facts, which he/she did not. Of course, I could be mistaken, but I’ve never known a protestant to decide that Mary is a goddess, for that matter, I’ve never known a Catholic who held to that either. So for him/her (robwar) to really study the argument would naturally leave one wondering why they would ever have come to such a conclusion. I concede that someone might believe that, but it’s not standard doctrine for any faith that I’m aware of.

If my study is correct there are 7 popes who denied the sinlessness of Mary. I’ll post them along with their quotes. I have them stored on my home computer. May I send them to you via PM? The forum rules seem to frown upon long articles being posted.

I understand that Popes have an ‘escape clause’. I don’t mean that in a disrespectful way, but I hear all the time that unless a Pope says something ex-cathedra then, anything they say is just their opinion and Catholicism as a whole cannot be expected to be responsible for the words of Popes. Yet, I find that many (certainly not all) Catholics want to hold Protestants responsible for every thing they might say. All I’m asking for is fundamental fairness if we are going to evaluate what is said. Seems fair, yes? I don’t hold all of Catholicism guilty for what ‘Call to Action’ and ‘Catholics for Choice’ say.

Yep, you’ll be hard pressed to find a consensus on Mary, but my experience is that most protestant denominations hold to the virgin birth and hold to the fact that she was blessed. But I’ve never been able to find a single scripture that supports the idea that she was sinless. Scripture says “ALL” have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That seems to settle it for us. I understand that in general, Catholics hold that since she was “full of grace” that somehow translates to sinlessness. I don’t see that at all. In fact Jesus was crucified to make payment or our sins for which He extends to us “Grace”. If Mary didn’t have sin in her life, then she would not have needed any grace.

Do I understand the CC position on salvation outside of the church? Good question. I don’t think that the CC HAS a position on salvation outside of the church. If you follow the history since the fourth Lateran Council, it becomes evident that no one wants to make a concise and final argument for it. The CC position seems to vascillate depending on whether a conservative or liberal holds the keys. I can accept that the doctrine seems to be fluid, but other than that, it seems to me that the only way to avoid this inconsistency is to change the question. In reality, I don’t care what the CC finally decides or how they decide it. It has no impact on me, since I’m already hell bound according to the CC.

Christians who don’t believe in hell? I don’t personally know any, but I am very aware that there are some people who call themselves Christians who do indeed deny hell. The most recent of which was Rob Bell. I don’t know of any Baptists (of any flavor) who would deny hell.

Bottom line. If you (not you personally) are going to try to stereotype protestants, call them lunatics and then insinuate that they are too lazy to study church history, someone who is neither a lunatic, or unlearned in the history of Christianity, will call you on it.

While l disagree with many of the CC teachings, it does not mean that I dislike Catholics. And… I’m not about to call a Catholic either a lunatic or ignorant of history. There are a good many Catholics that I hold in the highest of regard. I’d love to sit down with Bill Theirfelder from Belmont Abbey. He is surely someone, that any denomination would love to claim. To your credit he chose Catholicism and he practices what he preaches. He has 9 children.

God Speed.