? about Mary for Baptists + 1 more

[Patavium]

forevergrace,

Is calling mary Blessed Mother, a heresy?

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 1:46-50[/BIBLEDRB]

What happened to the Blessed Mother after Jesus Christ died, and rose to Heaven?

See the Council of Chalcedon 451AD

See early church hymns such as

*“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me {ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1{A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity 15:23 {A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns 27:8 {A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin 71:216 {ante AD 373}.

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22, 30 {A.D. 388}.

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace 4, 36 {A.D.415}.

“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 {ante A.D. 446}.

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 6, 11{ante A.D. 446}.

“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 {A.D. 449}.

“The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug {ante A.D. 521}.

“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption 5:6 {ante A.D. 650}.

“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God…. The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation.” Andrew of Crete, Sermon 1 On the Birth of Mary {A.D. 733}.

“Truly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali {ante A.D. 733}.

“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! Oh glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” John of Damascus, Homily 1 {ante A.D. 749}.*

are the Early Church Fathers HERETICS?

That’s why sola scriptura is not sufficient.

Isn’t the bible written tradition? yes or no?

Written tradition stems from oral tradition.

 

[robwar]

But in no case does it accuse anyone of having beliefs that are lunacy.

You really are having a problem with facts.

As to my study. Most of what I have studied comes from Catholic sources. But I will send you the quotes via pm if you want to see them.

Tell you what, I’ll read yet another book by Patrick Madrid if you read The Roman Catholic Controversy by James White. Two opinions that are diverse. Each seen with the eyes of the author. But I’m warning you, I’ll never read anything by Gerry Matatics and I suspect you wouldn’t either. A sedevacantist.

I respect what you believe even if I don’t agree. I haven’t called you a lunatic and I’ve not said you are unlearned. You however, as far as I can tell, are not interested in doing the same.

This is getting way off the subject which was a question by a Catholic about what “Baptists” believe about Mary and their understanding. I was raised a United Methodist and left that to spend a number of years in independent Charismatic movements. I have read many many things by all sorts of different people so you are completely off base in calling me uneducated, I have read things by James White as well and he is wrong. The Catholic Church contains the fullness of truth. There is lunacy in Protestantism because all you have is a bunch of different groups all basically claiming that they believe in the Bible and that they are correctly interpreting it and following Jesus. But with the estimates of 40,000 plus, who is right since many come up with very different views, practices and interpretations and on top of that, there are many conflicts between many of them. You are a reformed Baptist, what make that better than a Southern Baptist, American Baptist, independent Baptist etc etc etc. Since you seem to like history you need again to realize the quote by Cardinal John Neuman which say and I am paraphrasing that to study Christian history is to cess to be Protestant. You need to actually study what the earliest Christians believed and actually taught, not what some anti-Catholic like James White want you to believe.

God Speed.

 

[Patavium]

James White himself has failed time and time again to Catholic apologetics to defend the idea of sola scriptura. A simple google search should be enough.

youtube.com/watch?v=RJskrQq3dXM

and of course like Catholics apologetics argue “Why would sola scriptura be sufficient?”, so did we have to wait until a bible was compiled from oral teachings and oral traditions of the early church fathers … ?

 

[robwar]

I think we are getting way off the original question here which was by a Catholic about what Baptists believe about Mary. In spite of the many groups and sub groups and spilt off between the different Baptist Churches. They would all agree on the virgin birth but Mary’s immaculate conception, assumption into heaven, the title of theotokos and her intercessor role in heaven they do not believe or teach. I would like to respect the op original question and request not to start WW 3 between Catholics and Protestants on who’s teaching is correct. if we want to “discuss” the differences between what a number of Protestant churches teach about Mary and all these other issues, a new thread should be started. While I probably should not have used the term lunacy, what I meant by using that word is that there is no consistency in belief among the many different Protestant churches. I was not trying call Protestants lunatics and sorry for the misunderstanding. I think the original question was an inquiry into what is taught by Baptists about Mary not an invitation for attacks on Catholic (and Orthodox and Coptic) teaching about Mary by those who don’t believe in them or even understand them or want to.

 

[robwar]

James White himself has failed time and time again to Catholic apologetics to defend the idea of sola scriptura. A simple google search should be enough.

youtube.com/watch?v=RJskrQq3dXM

and of course like Catholics apologetics argue “Why would sola scriptura be sufficient?”, so did we have to wait until a bible was compiled from oral teachings and oral traditions of the early church fathers … ?

amen and amen

 

[Patavium]

Sure. However, clarifications should be provided about the beliefs. I believe Baptists in this thread genuinely want to know more of our beliefs on the Blessed Mother.

 

[robwar]

Sure. However, clarifications should be provided about the beliefs. I believe Baptists in this thread genuinely want to know more of our beliefs on the Blessed Mother.

yes, I do hope so! I know Marian teaching was one of the biggest hurdles for me in coming home! Many Protestants don’t realize that Martin Luther himself believed in a number of the Catholic Churches teaching about Mary.
God bless

 

[JonathonofOhio]

nicea325,
If my study is correct there are 7 popes who denied the sinlessness of Mary. I’ll post them along with their quotes. I have them stored on my home computer. May I send them to you via PM? The forum rules seem to frown upon long articles being posted.

I wasn’t even aware that the sinlessness of Mary was something debated at such length within the church. I know all we have from the Bible to go on of such examples of debate is one where early Christians debated that gentiles had to first be circumcised (become Jews) before they could become Christians. In fact, Peter, considered by us to be the first pope, actually settled the matter saying basically, “no, they don’t’”. But then he went against what he said later (obviously his personal opinion was different than God’s), and Paul publicly scolded him for it.

nicea325,
Yep, you’ll be hard pressed to find a consensus on Mary, but my experience is that most protestant denominations hold to the virgin birth and hold to the fact that she was blessed. But I’ve never been able to find a single scripture that supports the idea that she was sinless. Scripture says “ALL” have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That seems to settle it for us. I understand that in general, Catholics hold that since she was “full of grace” that somehow translates to sinlessness. I don’t see that at all. In fact Jesus was crucified to make payment or our sins for which He extends to us “Grace”. If Mary didn’t have sin in her life, then she would not have needed any grace.

I’ve heard both sides of the arguments over the years, and though as a Catholic I have always accepted that the Church as a whole knows more than me, I still often wondered about this myself. To me, the “All have sinned” argument relies on a rather ludicrous interpretation of scripture, and those who often posit it also do not believe in infant baptism. So in my mind, if the passage is to be taken as a literal blanket cast over everyone to mean we have all sinned, then a baby must be capable of sin. So then why are those sinful babies being denied baptism? In expanding the passage I realized that the apostle is talking more of humility rather than making a rule that every single person who has ever lived has sin. What about the children that died? They sinned too? If we make an exception to the rule for one, then, logically we can make exceptions for others, and the argument falls apart like a house of cards.

But a lack of proof doesn’t constitute proof that Mary is sinless, so I understand that the burden of proof, given the nature of mankind, resides with the people claiming she was and is sinless.

It wasn’t long ago that I stumbled upon the key to understanding the sinless nature of Mary, and why there shouldn’t be doubt about it. The proof, lies in the very fact that she is referred to as a virgin. Allow me to explain.

When man and woman were created, they were created to be virgins and without sin (Adam and Eve were created without sin). But God in His wisdom, perceiving the fall of man, created man and woman that they might ‘go forth and multiply’. God can create many men and women without the assistance of mankind, but He made it so that a man and woman join and become one flesh.

Mary was a virgin and never joined with any man but she bore a child, Jesus the Christ our Lord and Savior. And Jesus spoke of the merits of virginity and celibacy in Matthew 19. He did not impose a law on us though, because he says “all men cannot receive this saying”, but he mentions that those who are celibate do it for the Kingdom of Heaven.

Virginity is the way of the angels, and in the life to come we will be as the angels who do not marry (Matthew 22:30). But is that saying marriage is a bad thing? No, because the Lord blessed marriage with his presence at the wedding, and marriage is an honorable virtue (Hebrews 13:4), but virginity is the better virtue.

Elijah possessed such a virtue, and God gave him great power even over kings, and he was taken up to heaven body and soul (2 Kings 2:11), and his spiritual son, Elisha was also a virgin and received from God such great power that even his bones could raise the dead (2 Kings 13:20-21). The three youths in Daniel who were also virgins (Daniel 3:20) were not burned up in the fire, and Daniel himself being a virgin was not able to be eaten by the wild beast. Who would dare call any of these sinners?

And then there is of course Jesus, who is greater than all the angels, being made in the image of man, born of a virgin, who is the glory of virginity, and is the true and perfect virgin, and is called the New Adam.

Mary being forever a virgin then possesses the highest of virtues, and not by her own doing but by the grace of God. So the presence of the virtue is the proof. For if God, who is the author of life, did all these things, then surely he preserved Mary and she did not sin. For she is called Virgin Mary, not only because she didn’t join with a man, but because she is without sin.

 

[robwar]

thanks John from Ohio, that was a wonderful post because it was from your heart and in your own words. When people say that the immaculate conception is not Biblical, i always look at the way the angel Gabriel addressed Mary as “full or grace” which would mean she is in a state of Grace i.e.: without sin. Probably the biggest hurdle for me is Mary ever virgin which does mean that Joseph and Mary remained celibate. The Aramaic language used at that time did not have a word for cousin so brother was used. Also at the foot of the cross, Jesus entrusted Mary to St. John, not a half brother. Likewise the Jesus in the temple did not mention any siblings around.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God.

I speak to my dog who is in heaven right now. I don’t know if she can hear or see me, but I tell her I love her and miss her all the time.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God.

You mean the Mother of God?

Good place to start the contemplation.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

thanks John from Ohio, that was a wonderful post because it was from your heart and in your own words. When people say that the immaculate conception is not Biblical, i always look at the way the angel Gabriel addressed Mary as “full or grace” which would mean she is in a state of Grace i.e.: without sin. Probably the biggest hurdle for me is Mary ever virgin which does mean that Joseph and Mary remained celibate. The Aramaic language used at that time did not have a word for cousin so brother was used. Also at the foot of the cross, Jesus entrusted Mary to St. John, not a half brother. Likewise the Jesus in the temple did not mention any siblings around.

It’s my feeling that if anyone accuses Mary of sinning, it is a testimony of their lack of faith in God and in Jesus Christ. The promise is that through Jesus we can overcome sin and death (Romans 5:12,19), so if we say that it is not possible for Mary to overcome, then how can we say it is possible for anyone? After all she was full of grace and highly favored by God. Romans 5 talks about us all being sinners, not that we are born sinning, but that we are born into sin. Is the child immune to death until he is at an age of reasoning? If death is a result of sin, then it is true that we have ‘all sinned’ in the sense that we are born into sin, and consequently into death. That’s also why I never bought into the ‘all have sinned’ argument.

As for the brothers of Jesus I have heard several arguments. The only one that makes any logical sense, taking into consideration historical references and the bible, is that ‘brother’ or ‘brethren’ can mean people of distant relation or even people from the same community (Genesis 13:8, 14:14-16; Leviticus 10:4; 1 Chronicles 15:5-10, 23:21-22). I know some people say that it is possible that Joseph had other children from a previous wife, but there is no reliable historical information to confirm that. I feel the historical and biblical proof that ‘brother’ or ‘brethren’ does not always imply two people are from the same parent(s), is sufficient to blow the theory right out of the water.

How can ‘brother’ be used throughout the bible to describe people who are not even related by blood, but then suddenly when we apply it to Jesus in a particular passage, it’s now supposed to have a more strict meaning? The fact that he says everyone who does God’s will is his brother further clarifies the lose meaning of the word, and shows that the members of the Church are all part of the same community.

 

[Tony_Anastasis]

Excuse me for getting to the point rather quickly.
As a former Anglican and Baptist and now Free Church member, I want to say this about Marianism.
Aside from tradition of the CC, there is very slender reason to think of Mary as more than a good and divinely appointed woman. The scriptures say nothing about requesting her intercession.
Jesus could have specifically taught on this subject, if he had a mind to do so during his time on earth.

Mary referred in the Magnificat to Christ as her saviour. If she had been born sinless, she would have had no need for a saviour. Like all the rest of us she needed Christ’s atonement.

Are the saints available to speak with us? Well not according to the parable of Lazarus.There is a fixed gulf between those who die faithful and the living. Only Jesus himself or his angels are able to minister to us.

May Christ’s peace decend upon us

 

[Patavium]

Excuse me for getting to the point rather quickly.
As a former Anglican and Baptist and now Free Church member, I want to say this about Marianism.
Aside from tradition of the CC, there is very slender reason to think of Mary as more than a good and divinely appointed woman. The scriptures say nothing about requesting her intercession.
Jesus could have specifically taught on this subject, if he had a mind to do so during his time on earth.

Mary referred in the Magnificat to Christ as her saviour. If she had been born sinless, she would have had no need for a saviour. Like all the rest of us she needed Christ’s atonement.

Are the saints available to speak with us? Well not according to the parable of Lazarus.There is a fixed gulf between those who die faithful and the living. Only Jesus himself or his angels are able to minister to us.

May Christ’s peace decend upon us

Why are there Hymns of the Early Church Fathers mentioning Virgin Mary’s sinless nature?

This is what happens when you only have the written tradition, and ignore the oral traditions passed down from generation to generation.

 

[robwar]

Excuse me for getting to the point rather quickly.
As a former Anglican and Baptist and now Free Church member, I want to say this about Marianism.
Aside from tradition of the CC, there is very slender reason to think of Mary as more than a good and divinely appointed woman. The scriptures say nothing about requesting her intercession.
Jesus could have specifically taught on this subject, if he had a mind to do so during his time on earth.

Mary referred in the Magnificat to Christ as her saviour. If she had been born sinless, she would have had no need for a saviour. Like all the rest of us she needed Christ’s atonement.

Are the saints available to speak with us? Well not according to the parable of Lazarus.There is a fixed gulf between those who die faithful and the living. Only Jesus himself or his angels are able to minister to us.

May Christ’s peace decend upon us

Hi
I use to be in your shoes. The Marian doctrines can sometimes be the toughest for a Protestant to get through. About Mary’s intercessory role, the first miracle that Jesus did which was turn water into wine is at the request of Mary. Mary went to Jesus and asked him to do something. As you read it, it seems like Jesus turns her down but He did listen to her request and performed the miracle at the Cana wedding. This is the Biblical basis for her intercessory role in heaven. You said that only the CC teaches these things about Mary but you must realize that Orthodox and Coptic teach the same things and always have taught them. It is only the Protestant movement as it has broken and spread out that many of these teachings about Mary have been dropped. Likewise, the CAtholic view about heaven and the Church Militant (on earth), suffering (purgatory) and triumphant (heaven) is seen as one body of Christ. About the Biblical basis for intercession of saints in heaven you need to read Revelations where it describes those in heaven as offering bowls of prayers in the form of incense to God. They were offering prayers of those still on earth. Likewise Hebrews 12:1 which states:“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us while keeping our eyes fixes on Jesus , the leader and perfecter of faith.” This great cloud of witnesses are our brothers and sisters who have gone before us in faith. They are now the Church Triumphant and ready to help us finish the race. I also would like to recommend a very good book by Mark Miravalle “Introduction to Mary The Heart of Marian Doctrine and Devotion”. As you hopefully explore these issues, you will see anew some of the passages in the Bible in a new way.
God Bless

 

[robwar]

I have one more thing. in the comment about praying to Saints and the parable about Lazarus, the gulf was between Lazarus and the rich man. Praying to saints in order to ask for their intercession is not the same as trying to contact the dead and have them speak to us as in the occult. WE are not trying to contact the dead and we are sending our prayers to saints how are a live in heaven for their help and intercession. I think this needs to be clarified. Also about Mary’s immaculate conception, she was conceived without original sin. In other words, she was saved before she was born in order to prepare her to be the Mother of God. She still had to say yes to God. We are saved after we are born in baptism which removed original sin from us. So yes Mary did need a savior but she was saved before she was born.

 

[Patavium]

forevergrace,

Is calling mary Blessed Mother, a heresy?

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 1:46-50[/BIBLEDRB]

What happened to the Blessed Mother after Jesus Christ died, and rose to Heaven?

See the Council of Chalcedon 451AD

See early church hymns such as

*“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me {ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1{A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity 15:23 {A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns 27:8 {A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin 71:216 {ante AD 373}.

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22, 30 {A.D. 388}.

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace 4, 36 {A.D.415}.

“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 {ante A.D. 446}.

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 6, 11{ante A.D. 446}.

“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 {A.D. 449}.

“The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug {ante A.D. 521}.

“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption 5:6 {ante A.D. 650}.

“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God…. The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation.” Andrew of Crete, Sermon 1 On the Birth of Mary {A.D. 733}.

“Truly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali {ante A.D. 733}.

“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! Oh glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” John of Damascus, Homily 1 {ante A.D. 749}.*

are the Early Church Fathers HERETICS?

That’s why sola scriptura is not sufficient.

Isn’t the bible written tradition? yes or no?

Written tradition stems from oral tradition.

 

[Nicea325]

ForeverGrace

nicea325,

I appreciate your responses. They are pretty much standard Catholic faire that I am used to, but it’s nice to see a respectful exchange.

Not a problem and likewise.

I directed by comments to robwar and it looks like either he/she hasn’t seen my post, saw the post and chose to ignore it, or well… the other option is best not verbalized.

Oops! Sorry.

When you call protestants and/or their beliefs lunacy then you had better be able to support that with some facts, which he/she did not. Of course, I could be mistaken, but I’ve never known a protestant to decide that Mary is a goddess, for that matter, I’ve never known a Catholic who held to that either. So for him/her (robwar) to really study the argument would naturally leave one wondering why they would ever have come to such a conclusion. I concede that someone might believe that, but it’s not standard doctrine for any faith that I’m aware of.

I understand and that is a fair argument.

If my study is correct there are 7 popes who denied the sinlessness of Mary. I’ll post them along with their quotes. I have them stored on my home computer. May I send them to you via PM? The forum rules seem to frown upon long articles being posted.

Sure by all means…send a PM.

I understand that Popes have an ‘escape clause’. I don’t mean that in a disrespectful way, but I hear all the time that unless a Pope says something ex-cathedra then, anything they say is just their opinion and Catholicism as a whole cannot be expected to be responsible for the words of Popes. Yet, I find that many (certainly not all) Catholics want to hold Protestants responsible for every thing they might say. All I’m asking for is fundamental fairness if we are going to evaluate what is said. Seems fair, yes? I don’t hold all of Catholicism guilty for what ‘Call to Action’ and ‘Catholics for Choice’ say.

An escape clause?

Yep, you’ll be hard pressed to find a consensus on Mary, but my experience is that most protestant denominations hold to the virgin birth and hold to the fact that she was blessed. But I’ve never been able to find a single scripture that supports the idea that she was sinless. Scripture says “ALL” have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Okay,but there is a problem with your understanding. Does “ALL” include: adults and children born with severe mental illnesses? Would it not include Jesus since he too is 100% man? You said “ALL” have sinned.

That seems to settle it for us. I understand that in general, Catholics hold that since she was “full of grace” that somehow translates to sinlessness. I don’t see that at all. In fact Jesus was crucified to make payment or our sins for which He extends to us “Grace”. If Mary didn’t have sin in her life, then she would not have needed any grace.

Actually it is more. The CC does teach Mary needed a Savior.

Do I understand the CC position on salvation outside of the church? Good question. I don’t think that the CC HAS a position on salvation outside of the church. If you follow the history since the fourth Lateran Council, it becomes evident that no one wants to make a concise and final argument for it. The CC position seems to vascillate depending on whether a conservative or liberal holds the keys. I can accept that the doctrine seems to be fluid, but other than that, it seems to me that the only way to avoid this inconsistency is to change the question. In reality, I don’t care what the CC finally decides or how they decide it. It has no impact on me, since I’m already hell bound according to the CC.

No Forever Grace…NO Catholic can tell you that you are Hell bound! The CC has never once declared who is in Hell or who will go to Hell. It seems to me you do not understand the CC teaching on it.

Christians who don’t believe in hell? I don’t personally know any, but I am very aware that there are some people who call themselves Christians who do indeed deny hell. The most recent of which was Rob Bell. I don’t know of any Baptists (of any flavor) who would deny hell.

Well I do know of some Christians who deny Hell.

Bottom line. If you (not you personally) are going to try to stereotype protestants, call them lunatics and then insinuate that they are too lazy to study church history, someone who is neither a lunatic, or unlearned in the history of Christianity, will call you on it.

I am sorry others say that in a disrespectful way. I do not place all Protestants in the same basket. Just like Catholics: The good and practicing ones and the ones who have no involvement at all in shape or form.

While l disagree with many of the CC teachings, it does not mean that I dislike Catholics. And… I’m not about to call a Catholic either a lunatic or ignorant of history. There are a good many Catholics that I hold in the highest of regard. I’d love to sit down with Bill Theirfelder from Belmont Abbey. He is surely someone, that any denomination would love to claim. To your credit he chose Catholicism and he practices what he preaches. He has 9 children.

God Speed.

And the fact you disagree does not mean I have a problem with it. Just like not everyone is a Christian on this planet does not mean I need to stop having faith in God.

God Bless

 

[PumpkinSeed]

You mean the Mother of God?

Good place to start the contemplation.

Before there was Mary, there was God. Mary did not give birth to God before the creation of earth, ect. Mary is a human who gave birth to the Physical God.

Mary did not exist until wayyyyyyyyy after God created everything.

 

[Patavium]

Before there was Mary, there was God. Mary did not give birth to God before the creation of earth, ect. Mary is a human who gave birth to the Physical God.

Mary did not exist until wayyyyyyyyy after God created everything.

Mary gave birth to Jesus… God only by the action of the Holy Spirit… God.

No, Mary was not before God, and no Mary did not give birth to God before the creation of Earth. Yes Mary is a human being that God chose AMONG ALL THOSE THAT WILL EVER EXIST to give birth to Jesus… God only by the action of the Holy Spirit… God.