About Quran

[Dempsey1919]

The Quran is The prisine word of God revealed on the heart of Muhammad

If this is the word of God, then why is it filled with historical inaccuracies?

Let’s start with the fact that the Quran states that Christians worship Mary as a member of the Trinity. Christians have never taught or believed this.

The fact that the Quran views Ishmael as a prophet. Ishmael was the illegitimite son of Abraham and Hagar and was NEVER seen as a prophet until the advent of Islam. Some Islamic scholars have even suggested that Abraham was told to sacrifice Ishmael, and not Issaic. This is despite the fact that Judaism has taught otherwise for millennia.

The Quran even says that Solomon heard Ants speak, and I quote:

At length, when they came to a valley of ants,** one of the ants said:** “O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it.”

So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: “O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which Thou has bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me, by They Grace to the ranks of Thy Righteous Servants.”
– Sura An-Naml [The Ant] (27):18-19

The Quran teaches that God created the stars as missiles to throw at devils:

And verily We have beautified the world’s heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

Surrah 67:5

The Quran also claims that no-one was named ‘John’ before John the Baptist:

“O Zakaria! We give you the glad tidings of a son whose name is Yahya (John) - before him, We have not created anyone of this name.”

Maryam 19:7

How can such nonsence be the word of God?

 

[Montalban]

Hi

The Quran is The prisine word of God revealed on the heart of Muhammad in Arabic, it is as secure and protected as the day it was revealed. Arabic is a sister language of Hebrew and Aramaic. in Arabic a Prophet is called a Nabi, a person who brings fresh news covering all three modes of time, past ,present and future. Quran uncovers truth in things from the unseen world of past, present and future. If you want more I would be writing more.

Thanks

Unfortunately, when you read the Koran, there’s so much evidence Muhammed wrote it. There’s continual shifting of person in the dialogue to the first person - so Muhammed’s speaking himself - something that’s not meant to be in the Koran

 

[paarsurrey]

Unfortunately, when you read the Koran, there’s so much evidence Muhammed wrote it. There’s continual shifting of person in the dialogue to the first person - so Muhammed’s speaking himself - something that’s not meant to be in the Koran

Hi

Your impression is not correct.

That is due to language/culture difference.

You will have to develope the taste, then you would enjoy.

Thanks

The ultimate truth about Jesus is:
(Firstly), JesusYeshuaIssa did not leave anything revealed on him from GodAllahYHWH in the form of written stone tablets as was in case of Moses, (Secondly) or anything written by JesusYeshuaIssa himself when he left from Galilee, after the incident of Crucifixion, alongwith his mother Mary in search of the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel, he died natural and peaceful death in Kashmir, India.
Jesus left nothing behind authenticated by him, in possession of the Church.
We do respect the NTGospels which (Thirdly) have account of Jesus life, but it does not have much utility for a non-Catholic, a book of history subject to scrutiny, internal as well as external, for each event for truth on merit.

 

[Montalban]

Hi

Your impression is not correct.

No, you’re wrong. Yours is based on the illogic that Arabic must be the only language ever known that is impossible to properly translate to/from. Further, it’s not ‘my impression’ at all, but reading the Koran as translated by Moslems.

That is due to language/culture difference.

You will have to develope the taste, then you would enjoy.

Thanks

That’s simply false.

The Moslem scholars who understand English choose which words they best believe convey the original message from Arabic. And they choose words that put Muhammed in first person. Here’s how THEY have put it.

The very beginning of the Koran states…

1 In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

2 All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

3 The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

4 The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

5 You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

6 Guide us to the Straight Way

7 The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

Clearly these are the words of Muhammed, speaking to and about Al-lah, they are not the words of al-lah.

6:114
“Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur’an), explained in detail.” Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt.
These too, are the words of Muhammed.

Even more clear, is where Muhammed names himself…
6: 101 He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything .
102 Such is Allah, your Lord! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Creator of all things. So worship Him (Alone), and He is the Wakil (Trustee, Disposer of affairs, Guardian, etc.) over all things.
103 No vision can grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Subtle and Courteous, WellAcquainted with all things.
104 Verily, proofs have come to you from your Lord, so whosoever sees, will do so for (the good of) his ownself, and whosoever blinds himself, will do so to his own harm, and I (Muhammad ) am not a watcher over you.

51: 50 So flee to Allah (from His Torment to His Mercy Islamic Monotheism), verily, I (Muhammad ) am a plain warner to you from Him.

Obviously Muhammed forgot that he’s not meant to be the author of the Koran.
He gets even more confused when it’s angels now narrating…
37: 161 So, verily you (pagans) and those whom you worship (idols).
162 Cannot lead astray [turn away from Him (Allah) anyone of the believers],
163 Except those who are predestined to burn in Hell!
164 There is not one of us (angels) but has his known place (or position);
165 Verily, we (angels), we stand in rows for the prayers (as you Muslims stand in rows for your prayers);
166 Verily, we (angels), we are they who glorify (Allah’s Praises i.e. perform prayers).

Muhammed is the author of the Koran, and occasionally he forgot that he wasn’t supposed to be, but he made a few slip-ups.

NOTE
The words in brackets are those inserted by the people at
quraan.com/ which is a Moslem site. So when they choose to put “I (Muhammad )” as in the following…
51: 50 So flee to Allah (from His Torment to His Mercy Islamic Monotheism), verily, I (Muhammad ) am a plain warner to you from Him.
It is because THEY understand that it is Muhammed speaking.

 

[paarsurrey]

37: 161 So, verily you (pagans) and those whom you worship (idols).
162 Cannot lead astray [turn away from Him (Allah) anyone of the believers],
163 Except those who are predestined to burn in Hell!
164 There is not one of us (angels) but has his known place (or position);
165 Verily, we (angels), we stand in rows for the prayers (as you Muslims stand in rows for your prayers);
166 Verily, we (angels), we are they who glorify (Allah’s Praises i.e. perform prayers).

Muhammed is the author of the Koran, and occasionally he forgot that he wasn’t supposed to be, but he made a few slip-ups.

NOTE
The words in brackets are those inserted by the people at
quraan.com/ which is a Moslem site. So when they choose to put “I (Muhammad )” as in the following…
51: 50 So flee to Allah (from His Torment to His Mercy Islamic Monotheism), verily, I (Muhammad ) am a plain warner to you from Him.
It is because THEY understand that it is Muhammed speaking.

Hi

That is what I told you is due to language/culture difference.

You will have to develope the taste, then you would enjoy.

If you don’t want to accept it, you are welcome for your difference with me, no problem, no compulsion.

Thanks

Deuteronomy 18:20-22. “But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”
Because of his righteousness, Jesus prayers were heard, and he was saved from getting a cursed killing on Cross.
Hebrews 5:7 (NIV)
7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

 

[paarsurrey]

37: 161 So, verily you (pagans) and those whom you worship (idols).
162 Cannot lead astray [turn away from Him (Allah) anyone of the believers],
163 Except those who are predestined to burn in Hell!
164 There is not one of us (angels) but has his known place (or position);
165 Verily, we (angels), we stand in rows for the prayers (as you Muslims stand in rows for your prayers);
166 Verily, we (angels), we are they who glorify (Allah’s Praises i.e. perform prayers).

Muhammed is the author of the Koran, and occasionally he forgot that he wasn’t supposed to be, but he made a few slip-ups.

NOTE
The words in brackets are those inserted by the people at
quraan.com/ which is a Moslem site. So when they choose to put “I (Muhammad )” as in the following…
51: 50 So flee to Allah (from His Torment to His Mercy Islamic Monotheism), verily, I (Muhammad ) am a plain warner to you from Him.
It is because THEY understand that it is Muhammed speaking.

Hi

That is what I told you is due to language/culture difference or one may say a characteristic of the language developed in centuries.

If you don’t want to accept it, you are welcome for your difference with me, no problem, no compulsion.

Thanks

Deuteronomy 18:20-22. “But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”
Because of his righteousness, Jesus prayers were heard, and he was saved from getting a cursed killing on Cross.
Hebrews 5:7 (NIV)
7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

 

[Montalban]

Hi

That is what I told you is due to language/culture difference or one may say a characteristic of the language developed in centuries.

Which is to repeat your illogical claim about the Koran being impossible to properly translate.

It flies in the face of the facts that it has been translated by Moslems.

If you don’t want to accept it, you are welcome for your difference with me, no problem, no compulsion.

Thanks

You are in fact being rather insulting here by the downplaying of my argument to one of my opinion. It is not. I furnished a reasonable argument based on the evidence that Moslems themselves translate it. Your downplaying of my argument is thus very dishonest. It doesn’t address the evidence at all. You have in fact made a straw-man, that; this is Montalban’s opinion; nothing more

If you can not construct a reasoned response to my evidence, then that’s not my fault.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Montalban:

Which is to repeat your illogical claim about the Koran being impossible to properly translate.

It’s funny how the Quran is impossible to translate when the Bible has been correctly translated into practically every language known to man.

 

[Montalban]

It’s funny how the Quran is impossible to translate when the Bible has been correctly translated into practically every language known to man.

It flies in the face of common sense. Islam has many non-Arabic speaking followers, and yet when they come to learn to speak Arabic, or have it translated into their own language they must then apply the idea of ‘translation’ to the Koran.

Imagine if I speak Bahasa, and I’m learning Arabic so as to read the Koran. I’m told that word ‘x’ in Arabic means word ‘y’ in Bahasa. SO even through the process of learning the language I’m applying Arabic through the concepts of the language I’ve learned from the cradle.

I’ve done TESOL (at uni) (teaching English for speakers of other languages) And it’s possible to convey accurate meaning to those learning.

People currently trade with the Arabic world and are able to conduct contracts and other legal devices with issues of translation at work. I don’t hear that commerce continually fails because where some ask for ten bushels of wheat they get plums instead!

Personally what I find annoying is that paarsurrey would reduce a factual discussion to being simply my opinion.

 

[paarsurrey]

It’s funny how the Quran is impossible to translate when the Bible has been correctly translated into practically every language known to man.

Hi

But you don’t have the original word revealed on Jesus who spoke Hebrew or Aramaic, and these are sister languages of Arabic as they say.
You have translations of translations of ---------------, wel, that is no your fault, why to blame you.

Thanks

The ultimate truth about Jesus is:
(Firstly), JesusYeshuaIssa did not leave anything revealed on him from GodAllahYHWH in the form of written stone tablets as was in case of Moses, (Secondly) or anything written by JesusYeshuaIssa himself when he left from Galilee, after the incident of Crucifixion, alongwith his mother Mary in search of the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel, he died natural and peaceful death in Kashmir, India.
Jesus left nothing behind authenticated by him, in possession of the Church.
We do respect the NTGospels which (Thirdly) have account of Jesus life, but it does not have much utility for a non-Catholic, a book of history subject to scrutiny, internal as well as external, for each event for truth on merit.

 

[JFonseka]

They expect us to read about 5 pages worth of randomness.

What exactly did Mohammed preach that was more important to know than what Jesus said?

Give me 3 main points
Then from there we can discuss further, there is no way I’m reading all that copy and pasted stuf.

 

[JFonseka]

Hi

But you don’t have the original word revealed on Jesus who spoke Hebrew or Aramaic, and these are sister languages of Arabic as they say.
You have translations of translations of ---------------, wel, that is no your fault, why to blame you.

Thanks

The ultimate truth about Jesus is:
(Firstly), JesusYeshuaIssa did not leave anything revealed on him from GodAllahYHWH in the form of written stone tablets as was in case of Moses, (Secondly) or anything written by JesusYeshuaIssa himself when he left from Galilee, after the incident of Crucifixion, alongwith his mother Mary in search of the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel, he died natural and peaceful death in Kashmir, India.
Jesus left nothing behind authenticated by him, in possession of the Church.
We do respect the NTGospels which (Thirdly) have account of Jesus life, but it does not have much utility for a non-Catholic, a book of history subject to scrutiny, internal as well as external, for each event for truth on merit.

You keep saying this bit, over and over again, as if you want this to be drilled into our heads or something.

I already see Satan at work here, Jesus living in Kashmir indeed

 

[Montalban]

Hi

But you don’t have the original word revealed on Jesus who spoke Hebrew or Aramaic, and these are sister languages of Arabic as they say.
You have translations of translations of ---------------, wel, that is no your fault, why to blame you.

Thanks

paarsurrey, you continue your dishonest approach to this thread.

You now wish to divert this debate to one of how Chrisitans approach the Bible.

Start another thread, and I will draw your attention to the fact that Greek was the lingua franca of the day… as English is in our own day - and therefore you defeat your own argument by being able to converse in a different langauge to your own - obviously able to account for translation when you learnt it.

 

[Montalban]

You keep saying this bit, over and over again, as if you want this to be drilled into our heads or something.

I already see Satan at work here, Jesus living in Kashmir indeed

He defeats himself by showing that he’s able to converse in another language - unless Arabic is some super-language that is untranslateable - but defeats himself again (unless Arabic was his cradle language)

But I get the feeling Moslems aren’t here to debate, but to spam with Koran quotes, or in this guy’s case, to divert the argument to one about the Bible.

And this is problems from a seemingly moderate Moslem!

 

[paarsurrey]

They expect us to read about 5 pages worth of randomness.

What exactly did Mohammed preach that was more important to know than what Jesus said?

Give me 3 main points
Then from there we can discuss further, there is no way I’m reading all that copy and pasted stuf.

Hi

What Jesus told had not been preserved by his disciples who deserted him in the hour of need.

Otherwise, Moses, Jesus, Krishna,Abraham, David, Jonah, Krishna, Cyrus ,Zoroaster, Muhammad said the same things.

I give a very short chapter from Quran:
The Holy Quran : Chapter 112: Al-Ikhlas
[112:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[112:2] Say 'He is Allah, the One!
[112:3] Allah the Independent and Besought of all.
[112:4] 'He begets not, nor, is He begotten,
[112:5] And there is none like unto Him.
Unquote

Give me 3 main points

1)Say 'He is Allah, the One!
2)'He begets not, nor, is He begotten,
3)And there is none like unto Him.

Thanks

The first and primary source on “Jesus was not killed on Cross” – but Jesus later died naturally in Kashmir, in India is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908.
The Word of GodAllahYHWH is and had been the first/authentic and primary source of human knowledge whether revealed on Moses/Buddha/Jesus/Muhammad or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad; it is of itself a complete and without doubt and requires no external witnessing.

 

[JFonseka]

Hi

What Jesus told had not been preserved by his disciples who deserted him in the hour of need.

Otherwise, Moses, Jesus, Krishna,Abraham, David, Jonah, Krishna, Cyrus ,Zoroaster, Muhammad said the same things.

I give a very short chapter from Quran:
The Holy Quran : Chapter 112: Al-Ikhlas
[112:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[112:2] Say 'He is Allah, the One!
[112:3] Allah the Independent and Besought of all.
[112:4] 'He begets not, nor, is He begotten,
[112:5] And there is none like unto Him.
Unquote

Give me 3 main points
**
1)Say 'He is Allah, the One!
2)'He begets not, nor, is He begotten,
3)And there is none like unto Him.**

Thanks

The first and primary source on “Jesus was not killed on Cross” – but Jesus later died naturally in Kashmir, in India is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908.
The Word of GodAllahYHWH is and had been the first/authentic and primary source of human knowledge whether revealed on Moses/Buddha/Jesus/Muhammad or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad; it is of itself a complete and without doubt and requires no external witnessing.

Erm, I don’t know if you read too much into christianity, but we believe there is 1 God too!! Surprise?! (sarcasm) Allah = God

What does “there is none like unto Him” mean? Does it mean there is none like Him? If so, then it’s the same with Christianity.

 

[Montalban]

More evidence of Muhammed’s authorship come from a couple of aya relating directly to incidents from Muhammad’s own life:
Sura 33: Confederates

37 And when thou didst say to him [Muhammad’s adopted son] God had shown favour to and thou hadst shown favour to, ‘Keep thy wife to thyself and fear God;’ and thou didst conceal in thy soul what God was about to display; and didst fear men, though God is more deserving that thou shouldst fear Him; and when Zaid had fulfilled his desire of her we did wed thee to her that there should be no hindrance to the believers in the matter of the wives of their adopted sons when they have fulfilled their desire of them: and so God’s bidding to be done.

Sura 16: The Bee
103 And whenever we change one verse for another,- God knows best what He sends down. They say, ‘Thou art but a forger!’- Nay, most of them do not know.

 

[JFonseka]

Hi

The first and primary source on “Jesus was not killed on Cross” – but Jesus later died naturally in Kashmir, in India is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908.
The Word of GodAllahYHWH is and had been the first/authentic and primary source of human knowledge whether revealed on Moses/Buddha/Jesus/Muhammad or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad; it is of itself a complete and without doubt and requires no external witnessing.

Quite different from the rest, didn’t Buddha’s philosophies go against God? As In he didn’t believe in a God, he could be labelled as either agnostic or atheistic. I think he was atheist actually. So it’s a lie to claim that Allah gives his ‘primary source’ of knowledge, (which I’m taking as you meaning it spiritually in the context of all the other prophets mentioned) coming from an Atheist.

You are under an illusion that you can unite all the different teachings of all the other religions to be as 1, under Islam with some major twists to kind of squash it all in there. You come here believing in Jesus and him as a peaceful prophet, but you want to twist it so that he died in India, no doubt just to follow the delusioned man or woman that first put forth the ridiculous idea of him running to India and dying there.

 

[Dempsey1919]

paarasurrey:

What Jesus told had not been preserved by his disciples who deserted him in the hour of need.

You keep repeating this claim without ever providing solid proof. You have ignored all of our questions and just keep repeating your beliefs without explaining or defending them.

You have ignored most of my posts and have not made any decent attempt at answering any of my questions. I will not read information that has been cut and pasted. I want to hear what you have to say.

This is what I’ve written in the post of the Assumption of Mary in response to your claim that the early Christians changed the message of Jesus:

You want us to accept what you say at face value. You should learn about Jesus, afterall your religion reveres him as a prophet. Instead, you swallow the nonsense that Christians have altered or changed the gospel so you don’t read it. Even if you do read it, you will be thinking that it’s nothing but a forgery the whole time.

Answer this question: Why would Christians want to alter the message of Jesus?

Let’s for a moment say that Jesus was not crucified and did indeed escape to Kashmir to find the lost tribes. Why would the early Christians want to change this?

If Jesus was only a prophet, why would people want to say otherwise? What would they get out of it?

Christianity would still have been a religion if the crucifiction did not happen. The early Christians would have taught that Jesus was a great Prophet who healed the sick and taught the value of peace and love. They might even have said that Jesus was not the last messenger of God and that another would come after.

Now lets look at what really happened.

Jesus died and resurected. He ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father.

The Christian faith is not a simple faith. It can be very hard to understand. Most people struggle with the concept of the Trinity the first time they learn about it. The hypostatic union is also not an easy thing to understand.

If Christians wanted to change the message and religion, then surely they would have SIMPLIFIED it.

The fact that some theological truths are hard to understand proves that they didn’t alter the message. Why would a person create a religion that so many people had trouble understanding. A simpler religion would also stop heresy.

Take Islam as an example. The core beliefs are easy to understand: One God and One Messanger. Compare that with Christianity. Triune God. A person who is FULLY man and FULLY God all at the same time. A Virgin Birth.

Why would the early Christians want to die for a lie? Even the Apostles gave their lives for the faith. Surely these people knew more about Jesus than Muhammad. They knew him intimately. They would not lie about him or his message.

Answer these questions properly. I am starting to think that you have no idea what you are taking about.

 

[paarsurrey]

Buddha…didn’t believe in a God, he could be labelled as either agnostic or atheistic. I think he was atheist actually.

Hi

No ,sir, Buddha believed in one GodAllahYHWH.

If you can afford a little research, kindly access and read:
alislam.org/library/books/revelation/index.html
Name of the Book: Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge and Truth- Part-2, Chapter on Buddhism.

Thanks

I often quote from the writings of the PromisedMessiah, to make it convenient for my Catholic friends to convert me to your cherished faith, if you refute his arguments and your arguments exceed that of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s arguments; I being steadfast on my faith, keep a window or a door open to welcome the truth from anywhere it comes to me. The Catholics are in this way in direct contest with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.