? about the Angelicans coming back to Rome.

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I have thought about this numerous times. Lets see if any one here has an answer. Say a person was Catholic, married in the Church and then divorced and remarried without an annulment. They then converted to the Angelican’s and with the Ordinates that are being set up their parish Bishop that they were under and the whole parish is coming home to Rome. They are validly married in the eyes of the Angelicans and albe to receive all the sacraments. What happens when they all come back in the case of the ordinates? Would they be retrod back into having an invalid marriage and being in sin and have to go through the annulment process?
 
But by receiving the sacraments of initiation and vowing before God to marry in the Catholic Church, would he not be bound by this? Even if he was a ‘member’ of a non-Catholic church that was returning to Rome, he himself was consecrated a Catholic, and therefore would be ‘returning’ rather than ‘converting’ (I know ‘return’ and ‘convert’ aren’t the best terms that apply, but I figured they would help differentiate his return versus the Anglican return).
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
I have thought about this numerous times. Lets see if any one here has an answer. Say a person was Catholic, married in the Church and then divorced and remarried without an annulment. They then converted to the Angelican’s and with the Ordinates that are being set up their parish Bishop that they were under and the whole parish is coming home to Rome. They are validly married in the eyes of the Angelicans and albe to receive all the sacraments. What happens when they all come back in the case of the ordinates? Would they be retrod back into having an invalid marriage and being in sin and have to go through the annulment process?
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Hi,
I would think that the Anglicans who became Catholic are thereby subject to Catholic
regulations regarding marriages. The divorced person would need to apply for an annulment just as any other catholic.

In addition, although this may sound like we are pulling rank on other churches, that wedding is not a valid wedding in the eyes of God because that is a divine law given to us in the commandments in the Old Testament, as well as the statements made by Jesus in the New Testament.​

Abba Father, You are the potter, we are the clay, the work of Your Hands. (hymn)
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
I have thought about this numerous times. Lets see if any one here has an answer. Say a person was Catholic, married in the Church and then divorced and remarried without an annulment. They then converted to the Angelican’s and with the Ordinates that are being set up their parish Bishop that they were under and the whole parish is coming home to Rome. They are validly married in the eyes of the Angelicans and albe to receive all the sacraments. What happens when they all come back in the case of the ordinates? Would they be retrod back into having an invalid marriage and being in sin and have to go through the annulment process?
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(a) Such a person is not an Anglican. They are a Catholic by virtue of their Catholic baptism.

(b) Such a person would not be a part of th Ordinariate. They would be a Latin Rite Catholic subject to their territorial bishop, who could choose to worship in the Anglican Use parish.

(c) Such a person is in an invalid marriage and would have to petition for a decree of nullity and convalidate their current union (or remove themselves from the current union) in order to reconcile with the Church and resume the sacramental life.

(d) Such a person has always been in an invalid marriage.

(e) Those Anglicans joining through the Ordinariate would still have to individually make a profession of faith and receive the remaining sacraments of initiation (Confirmation and Eucharist). Any Anglican in an irregular or invalid marriage would have to resolve those issues before coming into full communion with the Catholic Church.
 
I thank you for your resonces and I agree. Just wondering if this has been addressed by the powers that be and if so were and how? Any thing in writting on this?
 
1ke said:
(a) Such a person is not an Anglican. They are a Catholic by virtue of their Catholic baptism.

(b) Such a person would not be a part of th Ordinariate. They would be a Latin Rite Catholic subject to their territorial bishop, who could choose to worship in the Anglican Use parish.

(c) Such a person is in an invalid marriage and would have to petition for a decree of nullity and convalidate their current union (or remove themselves from the current union) in order to reconcile with the Church and resume the sacramental life.

(d) Such a person has always been in an invalid marriage.

(e) Those Anglicans joining through the Ordinariate would still have to individually make a profession of faith and receive the remaining sacraments of initiation (Confirmation and Eucharist). Any Anglican in an irregular or invalid marriage would have to resolve those issues before coming into full communion with the Catholic Church.
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As you have stated Anglican Use Catholics will hold to Canon law, which now included the AC and Norms.

A “cradle” catholic, baptized as a “latin rite” or any rite who marrys an Anglican who then converts to the Ordinariate can be a member of the Ordinariate. Anglicanorum and the Norms specificly spell out who can and can not be a member of the Ordinariate.

So I as an Anglican Convert and my wife and five children (all cradle) will be members of the US Ordinariate once established. Cardinal Wuerl has their request and when the Ordinary for the Ordinariate is named, the Ordinary will approve or not and forward to Rome.

So in this example, if the person married an Anglican who converts, he or she could be a member once the issue of the other marriage is resolved.

Mark
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
I thank you for your resonces and I agree. Just wondering if this has been addressed by the powers that be and if so were and how? Any thing in writting on this?
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Yes, Rome has addressed these issues. Back in 2009 with Anglicanorum Coetibus and the Norms for Anglicanorum Coetibus.

You can go to the Vatican website or to www.theangloccatholic.com web site to read these two documents.

Mark
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
I have thought about this numerous times. Lets see if any one here has an answer. Say a person was Catholic, married in the Church and then divorced and remarried without an annulment. They then converted to the Angelican’s and with the Ordinates that are being set up their parish Bishop that they were under and the whole parish is coming home to Rome. They are validly married in the eyes of the Angelicans and albe to receive all the sacraments. What happens when they all come back in the case of the ordinates? Would they be retrod back into having an invalid marriage and being in sin and have to go through the annulment process?
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Your question is very confusing.
Are you asking about Anglicans who have decided as individuals or as congregations led by an Anglican priest or bishop who have decided to become Catholic through the new option? Are you speaking of laity or ordained priests and bishops? Their marriages are already recognized as valid, no action needs to be taken. The same with any baptized, married Christian who enters the Church. In the case of clergy, individual cases are discerned, and if they do have the priestly vocation they are ordained in the Catholic Church and remain married.

If you are speaking of a Catholic who has left the Church to become Anglican, that is an entirely different story. No matter what church he professes to belong to now, the fact remains if he divorced and the ex spouse is still living is was not then and is not now free to marry, so if he remarried it is an invalid union, and the situation will have to be resolved in the usual way, annulment investigation, if the decision is favorable, convalidation. This will be the condition before he comes back into full communion with the Catholic church. The rules don’t change just because he has practiced as an Anglican for a while.
 
The question no one has answered yet is who are the Angelicans? 😉 😛

In Christ,
Andrew
 
I could be mistaken, but I was told that any Catholic that has been attending and has received the sacraments of initiation at an Anglican Use parish can be part of the Ordinariate.
 
goatmom said:
I could be mistaken, but I was told that any Catholic that has been attending and has received the sacraments of initiation at an Anglican Use parish can be part of the Ordinariate.
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Thats what I am trying to find out. So far just oppinions have been offered. the one post that did offer up documents do not cover the situtation I was talking about.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
Thats what I am trying to find out. So far just oppinions have been offered. the one post that did offer up documents do not cover the situtation I was talking about.
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I don’t have ‘specific documents’ pertaining to this specific situation. However, it is established Catholic teaching that once one is initiated Catholic, they are always Catholic. Therefore, whether the Anglican Church recognized it or not, the second marriage is invalid per the Catholic Church, to which the person belongs.

Secondly, they would not be considered a convert because they had already received all of the sacraments of initiation. It’s not like coming through the gate as an Anglican washes the slate. Once Catholic, always Catholic, whether you practice, believe, or deny.

If someone were to come back to the Church because the Anglican church they attended returned to Rome, they would still need to receive proper nullification of the first marriage (so long as the spouse is living), and then have their marriage convalidated. They could then seek reconciliation and return to the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
 
Mumbles140 said:
I don’t have ‘specific documents’ pertaining to this specific situation. However, it is established Catholic teaching that once one is initiated Catholic, they are always Catholic. Therefore, whether the Anglican Church recognized it or not, the second marriage is invalid per the Catholic Church, to which the person belongs.

Secondly, they would not be considered a convert because they had already received all of the sacraments of initiation. It’s not like coming through the gate as an Anglican washes the slate. Once Catholic, always Catholic, whether you practice, believe, or deny.

If someone were to come back to the Church because the Anglican church they attended returned to Rome, they would still need to receive proper nullification of the first marriage (so long as the spouse is living), and then have their marriage convalidated. They could then seek reconciliation and return to the Sacrament of the Eucharist.
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Althought I agree with what you are saying, the wording in the the Norms for Anglicanorum Coetibus, though it does not address this, makes it a little unclear.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
I have thought about this numerous times. Lets see if any one here has an answer. Say a person was Catholic, married in the Church and then divorced and remarried without an annulment. They then converted to the Angelican’s and with the Ordinates that are being set up their parish Bishop that they were under and the whole parish is coming home to Rome. They are validly married in the eyes of the Angelicans and albe to receive all the sacraments. What happens when they all come back in the case of the ordinates? Would they be retrod back into having an invalid marriage and being in sin and have to go through the annulment process?
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This is really an excellent question that I have also posed before, but I’ve never received an answer. So, in short, if someone is in an invalid marriage (from a Catholic perspective) in a Anglican parish and that parish is absorbed into the ordinariate, what happens to the people who are in the invalid marriage? Are they thereafter kept from communion?
 
Dave_Noonan said:
This is really an excellent question that I have also posed before, but I’ve never received an answer. So, in short, if someone is in an invalid marriage (from a Catholic perspective) in a Anglican parish and that parish is absorbed into the ordinariate, what happens to the people who are in the invalid marriage? Are they thereafter kept from communion?
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Read the Norms Article 5 paragraph 1 about the circumstances for a cradle catholic to be a member of the ordinariate.

Anglicanorum Coetibus Section 1 paragraph 5 and Section 2 tells us the Ordinariate will be under the catechism and canons of the Catholic Church.

So in short, Anglicans in what is considered an irregular or invalid marriage will have to go through the same process as a Catholic. The marriage issue or any issue covered by the catechism and canon will have to be corrected in the manner dictated by the canons, CDF and Rome.

As will Baptism as some play loose. As an Anglican priest I have conditionally baptized people who could not present evidence of baptism and those in which the church group used a non-trinity formula. Only in the name of Jesus or some werid mother womb force formula some unorthodox groups are using.

There is no need for worry. Every Anglican coming in will be reviewed, catechized and instructed. I have submitted two dossiers, the second half an inch thick. One to let them know I am interested in the Ordinariate and the second just to be considered to for ordination. Every Anglican will have their baptism and marriage reviewed. Catechized, confirmed and first Eucharist. Every deacon and priest closely vetted and if approved sent to training regardless of educational level. I will be paired with a mentor priest to follow my progress and training. I will have to submit to examinations and testing.

Every question has already been thought of by Rome and a solution given. This has been on going since John Paul II in the early 80’s for individuals, groups early 90’s. Pope Benedict has been involved with this movement since the late 90’s.

The Anglicans coming in have submitted to the Successor of Peter. I would hope those within the Church would have faith in the Holy Father and the CDF as we Anglicans who are coming home trust him.
 
MarkBrown said:
…
The Anglicans coming in have submitted to the Successor of Peter. I would hope those within the Church would have faith in the Holy Father and the CDF as we Anglicans who are coming home trust him.
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This is key to understanding the process. Whatever the situation of those seeking full communion with the Church through the Ordinariate, they are submitting to, and subject to, the authority and disciplines of the Church. That is why there’s a cause for joy. People are coming home, not somehow staying where they are under some new arrangement.

We can indeed trust the Holy Father and CDF. Here in Canada, there’s been a bit of a flurry by some “continuing” Anglican groups about the process precisely because of the application of this authority and discipline. We Catholics shouldn’t underestimate the size and significance of the step these Anglicans are taking, and should offer them every support.

In marriage, in ordination, and in everything, the disciplines of the Church remain unchanged when applied to them, as to all Catholics. We should pray for those assenting to them.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
Ok so in the case I presented. The person that was Angelican that maried a divorced catholic had a valid marriage according to her the tradition that he/she was raised and ahs lived. that said once he/she, the parish what ever, comes into the Church his/her marriage would then be invalid? Remember he/she would not have been under cannon law as he/she was not catholic prior to this.

That looks to be punishing some one for the crime of another. The cradle angelican in this case from what everyone is telling me has to start living as brother /sister with thier spouce untill the other gets annullment, or 2 finding another angelcian commune that did not come back to Rome.
 
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