About the GIRM.

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Because “General” means its not “Absolute”.

Jim
No, in this case “general” means not local or specific. Definition 1 in the dictionary. It is the instruction to be followed by the whole Latin Rite of the Church unless there is an approved variation. Very few variations have been approved since RS and RS itself reprobated some previously approved local variations such as fractioning the precious Blood after the Consecration.

From Webster
Main Entry: 1gen·er·al
Pronunciation: \ˈjen-rəl, ˈje-nə-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin generalis, from gener-, genus kind, class — more at kin
Date: 14th century
1**: involving, applicable to, or affecting the whole**
2: involving, relating to, or applicable to every member of a class, kind, or group
3: not confined by specialization or careful limitation
4: belonging to the common nature of a group of like individuals : generic
5 a: applicable to or characteristic of the majority of individuals involved : prevalent b: concerned or dealing with universal rather than particular aspects
6: relating to, determined by, or concerned with main elements rather than limited details
7: holding superior rank or taking precedence over others similarly titled
 
And instruction means “not for self interpretation”😉

Guess we can’t agree on everything huh? 🙂
To instruct means to guide, not order, and in the case of the GIRM, its the local Bishop who has the authority on the interpretation and establishing the norms.

Thats why they call it the “General” instruction.

Jim
 
I wrote a post for this thread that doesn’t seem to have made it through.

I believe that the GIRM is to be regarded among the rubrics. The *Ritus servandus *of the 1962 Missal was certainly considered to be part of the rubrics and the GIRM is the successor to that in the current Missal.
 
I thank you all for your responses. I’ve often times in the past read of abuses that are prohibited by the GIRM, but in many cases the excuse for the abuse is that there is an exception of sort to allow the act.** I’ve given up trying to bring alleged instances up to the pastor,because I’ve no way to know the truth of the matter. Knowing the GIRM on agiven issue will help a lot in discusions.** Now all I need to know is if exceptions are published as well. Thanks for the help!

Peace to all!
Oh dear, this is what I thought. Yes, please read the GIRM:rolleyes: that’s all we need is more GIRMsters 🤷 or gripesters 😛
 
To instruct means to guide, not order, and in the case of the GIRM, its the local Bishop who has the authority on the interpretation and establishing the norms.

Thats why they call it the “General” instruction.

Jim
They always miss or forget the whole local Bishop concept 😃 perhaps we need a defintion of “general”. 🙂
 
No, its not a “to-Do” instruction, its a “General” instruction. Dioceses may differ slightly based on the instruction of the Bishop, who is the authority.

Jim
Yes, where the GIRM gives him the authority. For example, the local Bishop may choose to have the faithful stand after the Agnus Dei until their personal reception of Communion.

He would not have the authority, to do other things, like deny the reception of Communion to those kneeling or to alter the words of Institution.
 
Oh dear, this is what I thought. Yes, please read the GIRM… that’s all we need is more GIRMsters… or gripesters
The Church has called for the liturgical and biblical formation of Her members. Many of us simply don’t receive any from our pastors (or anyone else, for that matter). As a result, we don’t know right from wrong (liturgically speaking), and it’s only once we “feel” something is wrong that we decide to take matters into our own hands. I have yet to figure out what your problem is with a person who wishes to address liturgical aberrations (especially when they deal with abuses to – and possible failure to confect – the Most Blessed Sacraments) in the proper way with the priest or pastor. It may not be important to you, but it is important to some of us.
They always miss or forget the whole local Bishop concept… perhaps we need a defintion of “general”.
Yes, I’d like to hear what people think the “General” in “General Instruction” means. I’ve heard some definitions in this thread, some of which seem appropriate to me and others which seems to miss the mark. To think that “General” modifies “Instruction” in such a way that “Instruction” is demoted to “Suggestion” is ridiculous. To think that the “General” Instruction is subordinate to a Bishop’s “specific” instruction is fallacious, unless that Bishop is only acting within his liturgical and legal boundaries. Whitaker’s Words gives this definition: general, generic; {shared by/common to} a {class/kind}; of the nature of a thing.

For example, the GIRM says: “The priest may give the sign of peace to the ministers but always remains within the sanctuary, so as not to disturb the celebration. In the dioceses of the United States of America, for a good reason, on special occasions (for example, in the case of a funeral, a wedding, or when civic leaders are present) the priest may offer the sign of peace to a few of the faithful near the sanctuary.” (154) (The Latin says aliquibus paucis – a small few.) The “In the diocese of the United States…” clause is, first of all, an approved localization of this GIRM entry for the US, which means the Bishops Conference came up with it and Rome approved it. For a Bishop, then, to go outside this decision and say that he and all the priests of his diocese may work their way through the nave of the church giving handshakes to anyone is a liturgical abuse: it is outside the power and jurisdiction of that Bishop!

The General Instruction is not “General, unless the Bishop says otherwise”, it’s General unless further specified by the Bishop, to the extent which he has the power to specify. He cannot forbid reception of Holy Communion on the tongue, he cannot forbid people from bowing their heads before receiving Communion, he cannot introduce a new posture (except for the Agnus Dei), he cannot forbid use of Latin or Gregorian Chant, he cannot allow EMHCs to take the places of priests and deacons during the distribution of Communion, he cannot even allow EMHCs to purify the sacred vessels instead of the priest or deacon!

He’s the guardian of the liturgy in his diocese, not its master.
 
I’m just curious, ICEL is doing another translation of the GIRM as the definitive text for inclusion in the new English translation of the Roman Missal. Does that mean the earlier published texts by USCCB, England and Wales, Ireland and Australia will be superseeded by the new translation?
 
No, ‘Generalis’ refers to ‘all’, as in all people, all places.
Because it is for “All” people it can only be a “General” instruction because various cultures and situations may need some variation, which the local Bishop has the authority to oversee.

Jim
 
Because it is for “All” people it can only be a “General” instruction because various cultures and situations may need some variation, which the local Bishop has the authority to oversee.
Which is why the US GIRM has approved changes from the normative Latin GIRM. However, many of the questions and concerns that are brought up are not about bishops following the US GIRM, but about going outside of it or failing it adhere to it. For example: letting laity purify the sacred vessels or give homilies, or letting laity self-intinct the Host, or letting priests change the words of the Eucharistic Prayers, etc.
 
Good posts japhy. Maybe some will understand and maybe some will even think twice about abuses and norms.

well, we can always hope
.
 
Good posts japhy. Maybe some will understand and maybe some will even think twice about abuses and norms.

well, we can always hope
.
There is a big difference between being knowledgable about the GIRM and just simply being nitpiking. Most on here are nitpikers to the point of distrubing obession. Perhaps some on here might decide to start going to Mass and focus on our Lord instead of looking for abuses at every turn.

For heavens sake, you darn well that a serious abuse would stand out and especially if it was every single Sunday. Then in that case I’d say yes, by all means read the GIRM to make sure you are right, then go and talk to the priest and ask him about it. :rolleyes:
 
For example: letting laity purify the sacred vessels or give homilies, or letting laity self-intinct the Host, or letting priests change the words of the Eucharistic Prayers, etc.
These are abuses that more often than not, done without the approval of the local Bishop and even where they are, the Bishops having a shortage of priest working for them, prefer not to micro-manage the priest they have. Also, after a Bishop informs a priest that he should not be doing some minor infraction, should he remove the priest altogether if he continues?

Its my guess that the Bishops ignore most petty complaints that they get, with the understanding of who it is, that is doing most of the complaining.

Jim
 
There is a big difference between being knowledgable about the GIRM and just simply being nitpiking. Most on here are nitpikers to the point of distrubing obession. Perhaps some on here might decide to start going to Mass and focus on our Lord instead of looking for abuses at every turn.
I don’t think many here go “looking for abuses at every turn”, so please stop accusing us of doing so.
For heavens sake, you {know} darn well that a serious abuse would stand out and especially if it was every single Sunday. Then in that case I’d say yes, by all means read the GIRM to make sure you are right, then go and talk to the priest and ask him about it. :rolleyes:
I don’t get the “roll-eyes” thing you do here at the end of this. Can you be serious about this or not? If there is a serious abuse happening every Sunday, shouldn’t something be done about it?

Here are two of the most grave abuses the OP mentioned: “concecrating the wine while still in the glass decanter” and “substituting the words of institution for Father’s own prefered words”. BOTH of those should be stopped immediately, especially because there’s absolutely no reason for either of them to happen. There is no reason to delay the pouring of the wine into chalices; there is no reason to change the words of institution (or any of the words of the Eucharistic Prayer).

If you just want to roll your eyes and chuckle and berate those who are concerned about abuses committed against the Most Blessed Sacrament and other desacralizations of the Mass, please do so privately and don’t partcipate in these threads.
 
These are abuses that more often than not, done without the approval of the local Bishop and even where they are, the Bishops having a shortage of priest working for them, prefer not to micro-manage the priest they have. Also, after a Bishop informs a priest that he should not be doing some minor infraction, should he remove the priest altogether if he continues?
There are ways of disciplining priests that don’t involve removing them. At the very least, the bishop could actually address the issue rather than simply ignore it. Or make a public statement about the matter.

Why does it seem that some bishops have no problem mandating or approving practices that are not permitted by the Church (such as lay purification of the sacred vessels), but they take little or no effort in exhorting their priests to adhere to the liturgical norms?
Its my guess that the Bishops ignore most petty complaints that they get, with the understanding of who it is, that is doing most of the complaining.
And who is it “that is doing most of the complaining”? And which of the abuses mentioned in, say, Redemptionis Sacramentum, would you consider “petty”? I’m trying to get some context for this remark of yours.
 
I don’t think many here go “looking for abuses at every turn”, so please stop accusing us of doing so.

I don’t get the “roll-eyes” thing you do here at the end of this. Can you be serious about this or not? If there is a serious abuse happening every Sunday, shouldn’t something be done about it?

Here are two of the most grave abuses the OP mentioned: “concecrating the wine while still in the glass decanter” and “substituting the words of institution for Father’s own prefered words”. BOTH of those should be stopped immediately, especially because there’s absolutely no reason for either of them to happen. There is no reason to delay the pouring of the wine into chalices; there is no reason to change the words of institution (or any of the words of the Eucharistic Prayer).

If you just want to roll your eyes and chuckle and berate those who are concerned about abuses committed against the Most Blessed Sacrament and other desacralizations of the Mass, please do so privately and don’t partcipate in these threads.
Oh sheesh, ok I meant to put the little 🤷 instead of the eye rolling guy. I think you have an issue with me in general so I kindly give you a suggestion. Instead of getting personal, put me on ignore if you don’t like my posts, it’s very simple. I will go where I want, thank you.
 
I think you have an issue with me in general so I kindly give you a suggestion. Instead of getting personal, put me on ignore if you don’t like my posts, it’s very simple. I will go where I want, thank you.
You don’t have to leave because I said so. (I’m not a bishop, and this isn’t the liturgy, and you’re not an abuse.) 😉 And I didn’t tell you to leave, anyway; I asked you not to “roll your eyes and chuckle and berate those who are concerned about abuses committed against the Most Blessed Sacrament and other desacralizations of the Mass” publicly in this forum. It’s just a request for courtesy.

It’s not you I have an issue with, since I don’t know you at all. I do disagree with you on many liturgical matters, though. Each of your statements could be from a different person and I would still disagree with them. You could be my wife (although I doubt you are) and I would still disagree with them. You could be a priest or bishop and I’d still disagree with them.

It’s not personal; I’m trying to be objective about the liturgical questions that come in here. When I’m giving my preference, I make it clear; I try to provide the answers given by the Church.
 
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