About the GIRM.

[JimR-OCDS]

japhy

There are ways of disciplining priests that don’t involve removing them. At the very least, the bishop could actually address the issue rather than simply ignore it.

How do you know they haven’t?

Or make a public statement about the matter.

I’ve seen public statements in the Catholic Free Press that my Bishop has made, but yet some priest I’m know, still ignore him.

Why does it seem that some bishops have no problem mandating or approving practices that are not permitted by the Church (such as lay purification of the sacred vessels), but they take little or no effort in exhorting their priests to adhere to the liturgical norms?

Maybe you have a misunderstanding of what the norms actually are?

And who is it “that is doing most of the complaining”?

Talk to a Bishop sometime. They know the names of the people by heart, who are constantly writing to them with some complaint or another.

And which of the abuses mentioned in, say, Redemptionis Sacramentum, would you consider “petty”? I’m trying to get some context for this remark of yours.

Is holding hand during the Our Father in Redemptionis Sacramentum?

Jim

 

[japhy]

How do you know they haven’t? I’ve seen public statements in the Catholic Free Press that my Bishop has made, but yet some priest I’m know, still ignore him.

It’s a sad day when a priest will refuse to adhere to lawful orders from his bishop. It makes one wonder what sort of formation the priest had in seminary that he would a) abuse the liturgy to begin with, and b) not accept correction from his bishop in the matter. I’ll pray for that priest you know.

Maybe you have a misunderstanding of what the norms actually are?

Do you mean I don’t know some of the specific norms, or I have a general misconception of the purpose of the norms altogether (i.e. that they’re “suggestions” or “guidelines” and not instructions)?

Is holding hand during the Our Father in Redemptionis Sacramentum?

No, and I never hinted it is. However, a bishop cannot mandate such a posture by the faithful during the Our Father. Nor can a bishop or priest add “Let us join hands now as we pray the Our Father” to the Mass. People who hold hands of their own accord, I’m not bothered by it, just like I hope people aren’t bothered by me keeping my hands folded.

 

[anamchara]

You don’t have to leave because I said so. (I’m not a bishop, and this isn’t the liturgy, and you’re not an abuse.) And I didn’t tell you to leave, anyway; I asked you not to “roll your eyes and chuckle and berate those who are concerned about abuses committed against the Most Blessed Sacrament and other desacralizations of the Mass” publicly in this forum. It’s just a request for courtesy.

It’s not you I have an issue with, since I don’t know you at all. I do disagree with you on many liturgical matters, though. Each of your statements could be from a different person and I would still disagree with them. You could be my wife (although I doubt you are) and I would still disagree with them. You could be a priest or bishop and I’d still disagree with them.

It’s not personal; I’m trying to be objective about the liturgical questions that come in here. When I’m giving my preference, I make it clear; I try to provide the answers given by the Church.

I wonder what part of the word YOU isn’t personal:

I have yet to figure out what your problem is with a person who wishes to address liturgical aberrations (especially when they deal with abuses to – and possible failure to confect – the Most Blessed Sacraments) in the proper way with the priest or pastor. It may not be important to you, but it is important to some of us.

I don’t get the “roll-eyes” thing **you **do here at the end of this. Can you be serious about this or not? If there is a serious abuse happening every Sunday, shouldn’t something be done about it?

If you just want to roll your eyes and chuckle and berate those who are concerned about abuses committed against the Most Blessed Sacrament and other desacralizations of the Mass, please do so privately and don’t partcipate in these threads.

For the record my friend, I haven’t chuckled nor have I berated anyone in this thread so you might want to back off from the accusations. I think your bias toward me has tainted the way you read my posts. Take a step back and breath. I would again suggest that you put me on ignore. You might also want to stop giving orders to other posters and let the mods do thier job

btw, I wasn’t leaving. Not sure where you got that.

 

[japhy]

I wonder what part of the word YOU isn’t personal

I could defend myself (and these comments of mine), but I do not want to derail this thread any further.

For the record my friend, I haven’t chuckled nor have I berated anyone in this thread so you might want to back off from the accusations.

Well, you call us – by which I mean those of us who are concerned about the celebration of Mass in accordance with the Church’s tradition and discipline – “gripesters”, you insinuate that we are “nitpickers” bordering on having a “disturbing obsession”, and you suggest we are not “focus[ing] on our Lord” during Mass because we’re too busy “looking for abuses at every turn”. That’s pretty personal if you ask me, and I would consider them insults. I apologize for using the word “berate”, which does not mean what I thought it meant.

I think your bias toward me has tainted the way you read my posts. Take a step back and breath. I would again suggest that you put me on ignore.

I think your bias towards us “gripesters” taints your posts. We should both breathe. I’ll consider putting you on my “ignore” list.

 

[Apryl]

Is it just me, or is the GIRM hard to read?

Ok, if I just take the book, and read it page by page, it’s GREAT! I understand what I do read.

However, as a reference tool, it’s confusing.

For example: I would like to be able to tell someone what they are supposed to do when they are receiving communion.

Where do I start? There is ‘masses with a deacon’, and ‘masses without a deacon’; there is stuff about the choice of receiving under both species.

This is not what I’m looking for.

Typically, when I pull out my GIRM (which I don’t have with me now, unfortunately), it’s to answer a question, not for casual reading.

I would ask my pastor, but honestly, he KNOWS this stuff. He’s not approaching it like I do: I’m a lay person, with questions. I guess I could bother him on this matter, but I’m usually asking him so many other questions, I bought the books so that I could look it up for myself.

(I also feel lost when using the Code of Canon Law)

 

[anamchara]

I think your bias towards us “gripesters” taints your posts…

yep, you are right good sir! I don’t like GRIMsters…however I never said you were one. And no where did I say I don’t take the liturgy seriously or abuses seriously, you have read that into my posts and apparently my posts in other threads. Ya, you better put me on ignore. You seem to be obsessed with my berating and my… what was it? Oh ya, I don’t take abuses seriously and the Holy Blessed Sacraments. Interesting how much you read into my words. And you weren’t getting personal? Now I am chuckling

Peace brother

 

[japhy]

For example: I would like to be able to tell someone what they are supposed to do when they are receiving communion.

Where do I start? There is ‘masses with a deacon’, and ‘masses without a deacon’; there is stuff about the choice of receiving under both species.

I would first look at the Table of Contents. At the end of Chapter II, Section III, Part C, is listed “Communion”. However, this section (nn. 84-89) is an overview of what happens and doesn’t have the details (I assume) you’re after.

So we look at Chapter IV, Section I, Part A, and go to “The Liturgy of the Eucharist”. We can assume (or hope) that the presence or absence of a deacon does not affect our behavior or duties when receiving Communion. The relevant instructions are nn. 160-161; if there is Communion under both kinds, the GIRM directs us to nn. 284-287.

That’s that. The index might be helpful too.

 

[Apryl]

So we look at Chapter IV, Section I, Part A, and go to “The Liturgy of the Eucharist”. We can assume (or hope) that the presence or absence of a deacon does not affect our behavior or duties when receiving Communion. The relevant instructions are nn. 160-161; if there is Communion under both kinds, the GIRM directs us to nn. 284-287.

Thank you. Yes, I’ve used both the TOC and the index (I’m not looking at my book right now. I haven’t touched it since Sunday).

Paragraph 160 is probably the closest to what I want - in this case - but there are so many other things that I try to find using the GIRM, and honestly, I find many of the answers hard to locate.



Maybe it’s just me. But I find this text hard to follow. I use it, but mostly, it’s best to read to see what is has, rather than to read to find answers.

 

[japhy]

I don’t like GRIMsters…however I never said you were one.

Mea culpa. I apologize for assuming that you including me in your “GIRMster” comment.

And no where did I say I don’t take the liturgy seriously or abuses seriously, you have read that into my posts and apparently my posts in other threads.

Mea culpa. I don’t think I said you didn’t, but I apologize for giving you the impression. (The “serious” comment I made was in response to a mistaken icon, if you remember, so it’s moot now.)

You seem to be obsessed with my berating and my… what was it? Oh ya, I don’t take abuses seriously and the Holy Blessed Sacraments. Interesting how much you read into my words.

Peace brother.

Mea maxima culpa. I wish you no discomfort and I will be sure to read your posts more carefully in the future. I just ask that you not poke fun at certain liturgically-minded people (whoever they are) so as to realize the peace you are so freely offering me.

 

[sawman]

Thanks to all again for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I’ve had a chance to catch up with the thread and I would like to make it clear that I am Not a Nit-Picker!!
I am merely trying to get a source of info.
I hate to try to have a conversation with someone when I am in ignorance. I want to know as much as reasonably can be expected. I am teachable.

Look, for my entire adult life I’ve had the dubious distinction of seeing a variety of priests soy mass. I’ve seen a great many things that are not regular. I can not under stand why a priest would not be reverent or follow the norm of things at mass. It comes across as arrogant, disobedient, or worse.It seems as though some priests consider mass to be their own little show or performance. They want to "spice"it up,or whatever.Some seem to have an attitude that this is all small potatoes,well maybe some is, but some isn’t. I want ot know what the rule,or norm should be before I bother my pastor. The man is as busy as a one-armed paperhanger.

Peace to all!!

 

[anamchara]

I just ask that you not poke fun at certain liturgically-minded people (whoever they are) so as to realize the peace you are so freely offering me.

No reason for all the mea cupla I meant peace from the heart. I don’t hold any ill will. We are all under the same tent my friend. I’m not sure why you keep talking about me making fun of liturgicially-minded people. Not sure where I ever did that one. You must be confusing me with someone else. You seem to be coming at me with some history and I don’t even remember running across you in any threads. Anyway, whatever I’ll post the way I want and you are free do the same of course!

Thanks to all again for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I’ve had a chance to catch up with the thread and I would like to make it clear that I am Not a Nit-Picker!!

Let me ask you a question sawman, is the abuses so bad every Sunday that they seriously stand out? I do question people when they come in and start asking where the GIRM is because often it’s over something that we wouldn’t even notice unless we are looking to be offended. I’m not saying this is you but I’ve seen such knee-jerk reactions on here over so-called abuses. Keep in mind many on here think having girl altar servers is an abuse or having guitar music or heaven forbid anything from the OCP I’m going off track but you get my meaning here. I like to ask, is the priest old? I feel bad for priests who make innocent mistakes.

I hate to try to have a conversation with someone when I am in ignorance. I want to know as much as reasonably can be expected. I am teachable.

 

[Guitar]

Ok, I have never heard that one before!

(Off topic: the saying is “as busy as a one-armed paperhanger with hives” where I come from. )

 

[anamchara]

(Off topic: the saying is “as busy as a one-armed paperhanger with hives” where I come from. )

Oh that is even better! Now I want to know where you guys are

Off topic

 

[sawman]

Blessings to all,
So, now I see, said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.
I am not looking to skewer some poor priest.
Answer this ,how can I know what an abuse is without reference to the GIRM?
I see something I think is odd or irreverent or doesn’t appeal to my taste,God forbid,I can’t ignore it. The act or whatever it is, just assumes a spiraling, sense of importance unless I can put it to bed.
All I want to know is, is it allowed?
If not, why is it being done? Or not done?
I’m sorry, but I’ve just about had enough of overlooking and putting up with others preferences at mass, especialy when it involves abuse or disrespect.
The mass does not belong to me,or Father or even the liturgy commitee. It is not ours to do what we want with.
There are those who are honestly mistaken, but there are also others for whom the mass is just a form of personal performance art.It is all about them. This what needs to be uncovered by conversation.
Thanks, Peace!

 

[japhy]

Answer this ,how can I know what an abuse is without reference to the GIRM?

Reformulating that question positively: how can I know what the proper form of the liturgy is? (And you are certainly entitled to a) know that, and b) participate in it!)

Reading through the Order of Mass in the Sacramentary will help. Reading the GIRM will help. Reading Redemptionis Sacramentum will help.

Ideally… your pastor should offer (personally or through some other means) liturgical catechesis for your parish. Its purpose is (at least) two-fold: so that you know what to do (and what not to do), and so that you know why you do it (and what the meaning behind it is).

 

[MrS]

.
Answer this ,how can I know what an abuse is without reference to the GIRM?
I see something I think is odd or irreverent or doesn’t appeal to my taste,God forbid,I can’t ignore it. The act or whatever it is, just assumes a spiraling, sense of importance unless I can put it to bed.
All I want to know is, is it allowed?
Thanks, Peace!

That would have been the $64,000 question (back around the days of Vat II ). Today, however, $1.2million might be the better number.

Most, and I do mean MOST, Catholics in the pews would not know an abuse if it bit them.

Laity in the sanctuary during the consecration, for example, is now considered a form of “active participation”. After all, “we are church”

Purifying vessels by the laity, while the priest and/or deacon sits, is also considered “serving” and a “ministry”

And quite frankly, the outright rejection of ad orientem, Latin, kneelers etc is also abusive if one knows what the NO was ***intended ***to be.

I will be posting a new thread, perhaps later today, referencing a recent publication from the Vatican Press on the topic of communion.

I am sure the sparks will fly. Those who will agree with the writer will be labeled trads or rad-trads I am sure. And others will disagree with the view that “God doesn’t mind - can’t we all just get along?”.

Personally, it is not my problem if one actually chooses to ignore or re-invent a proper liturgy, whether cleric or lay. But I will not put one on an ignore list just to make life easier. You deserve more than that.

And for that, I compliment japhy for consistency and accuracy.

.

 

[japhy]

Most, and I do mean MOST, Catholics in the pews would not know an abuse if it bit them.

I would guess two reasons: they were never taught about the proper celebration of Mass (and other liturgical acts), and they have become accustomed to this priest or that priest putting his own “mark” on the Mass.

Personally, it is not my problem if one actually chooses to ignore or re-invent a proper liturgy, whether cleric or lay. But I will not put one on an ignore list just to make life easier. You deserve more than that.

And for that, I compliment japhy for consistency and accuracy.

Well thank you, sir.

 

[jbebeau]

I’m just curious, ICEL is doing another translation of the GIRM as the definitive text for inclusion in the new English translation of the Roman Missal. Does that mean the earlier published texts by USCCB, England and Wales, Ireland and Australia will be superseeded by the new translation?

It is not a complete retranslation of the GIRM but rather subtle changes. Since the GIRM was first translated the ICEL has established a specific list of guidelines for translation. This is probably applied to the GIRM, thus another copyright. A member of these forums, John Lilburne, had done a good job of comparing the various editions of approved GIRMs. There are many minor changes, and a new copyright would be issued for them. I think this is what the link you provided indicates. That is what it means for things like the Proper of Seasons.

romanrite.com/compare.html